Shall China deploy 041 AIP sub in Karachi to check Indian navy?

[Arsalan]

Aah yes.. so speaks a "Think Tank".

Exactly!! Only if you can follow what i mean...
I have seen all your posts and can judge why you are here. When you are not looking for it what good any information can do to you? no matter how many facts one can present. So,, Peace!

 

[surya kiran]

Exactly!! Only if you can follow what i mean...
I have seen all your posts and can judge why you are here. When you are not looking for it what good any information can do to you? no matter how many facts one can present. So,, Peace!

Why is it that when asked for 'facts' you seem to think that the other person is not ready to listen, try me. Prove my theory wrong. Let's start with simple things.

What is the amount of loan vs grant provided by either country US vis a vis China?
What has China done to help the Pakistanis solve the deficit problem?
Which wars led to China deploying or opening a second front against India?
In 1999 what was China's re-action to the Kargil operation?
In terms of economic activity, what is the result for Pakistanis, due to the inflow of funds from China?
Pakistani economy needs electricity. How has China used its good offices to ensure this can be solved?
How has China reacted to Kashmir in the UN over the past few years?

Answer the above simple questions with facts and numbers. I am open to be proven wrong. Over a period of time on this forum, one gets cynical when you see every Pakistani and Indian spouting views without numbers and facts so you reply back with single line comments. So, give me a long rope, assume I am an idiot and correct me. You are a think tank.

As for why I am here. Military is not my forte, though I like to learn and have from likes of gambit, oscar, capt popeye, sancho, couple of guys on the tanks forum and many others. Honestly, my work hours run from 915 AM to 1130 PM. Where I cannot move away from my machine for long periods of time.

Or, if you feel, some other parameter should be used, do suggest.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Do US/NATO need those bases while they already have several bases covering the entire Asia pacific to counter China?

only bases in Japan,Guam and Korea are large.others are smaller bases.but I think,Subic Naval Base(if US gets it) will be the next big thing coming.don't know about US-Vietnam co-op.but looks like US will have some presence,temporary may be,as well in Vietnam.Vietnam,Philippines and Singapore is going to get major attention as presence in these three can check PLAN activity around SCS and towards IOR effectively.

 

[Arsalan]

Why is it that when asked for 'facts' you seem to think that the other person is not ready to listen, try me. Prove my theory wrong. Let's start with simple things.

What is the amount of loan vs grant provided by either country US vis a vis China?
What has China done to help the Pakistanis solve the deficit problem?
Which wars led to China deploying or opening a second front against India?
In 1999 what was China's re-action to the Kargil operation?
In terms of economic activity, what is the result for Pakistanis, due to the inflow of funds from China?
Pakistani economy needs electricity. How has China used its good offices to ensure this can be solved?
How has China reacted to Kashmir in the UN over the past few years?

Answer the above simple questions with facts and numbers. I am open to be proven wrong. Over a period of time on this forum, one gets cynical when you see every Pakistani and Indian spouting views without numbers and facts so you reply back with single line comments. So, give me a long rope, assume I am an idiot and correct me. You are a think tank.

As for why I am here. Military is not my forte, though I like to learn and have from likes of gambit, oscar, capt popeye, sancho, couple of guys on the tanks forum and many others. Honestly, my work hours run from 915 AM to 1130 PM. Where I cannot move away from my machine for long periods of time.

Or, if you feel, some other parameter should be used, do suggest.

i was refereing to this below quoted post from yourself. Go through it again and may be then you will understand (as you said you are open to learning) what i have said and shy i have said that.

China should, in fact, deploy its forces to safe guard Gwadar. Troops on the ground.

Going by Pakistan's foreign policy history, you would want to be really careful before sharing anything technological critical with the Pakistanis. You never know, when the Chinese will be become " the satanistic atheists" while americans become "children of abraham". And getting Chinese technology into the hands of the Americans is not something that is beyond the Pakistanis.

What history are you referring to?
Are you confusing our relations with China with your relations with Bangladesh, Burma or Sri Lanak?
Why the hate speech? isn't it enough to tell someone why really you are here?

With such a busy scheduled as you have mentioned you still find time to come here and when you do you post this?

Forget it, as mentioned, i am not really optimistic about this debate getting us any good, so no further explanations from my side. If you will be willing to understand you will, it is not that complicated!

 

[Kaniska]

that not the point & is insignificant , but the more important question is will China being a mature power , agree to establishing a naval base in Pakistan in the first place ?
think about it mate, what if India in return allows US & Nato to establish a naval base in Andaman & Nicobar island ?

And not only...think about even Indian public angle too...Right now 21st centrury Indian youth may be racist on the internet foroum occasionally to Pakistan on the interney foroum, but due to the impact of globalization and internet, public in India also internally understands that war with Pakistan is not at all in our long term intrest...Our ambition is to become an economic power house rather defeating Pakistan on a war..And same should be applicable for Pakistan too...India and Pakistan with huge population density and more poor people in this region are liability to any nation who even fights and win a war...

Hence as of now, Indian public although pro american in nature but they do not like any kind of naval base or anything from any external power in our nation...Think about it, even at the height of cold war, when US was supportying Pakistan openly, India did not allow Soviet Union to have a base in India....So if Pakistan officially allows China to have a military base, then Indian Gov will be able to easily convince public to have a strategic alliance with US and the West to have a base or direct engagement with a point that India can not counter China alone....

So basically, India and Pakistan will be a theater or laboratory of war for China and the West to flex their muscle...It will be the same situation like the pathetic middle eastern states....So think rationally, do you want that?...Mate we have bad histroy..and we have problems...but our problem is different...Our problem is not with the land that if India and Pakistan occupy each other then problem will be solved...Problem between India and Pakistan lies between people of 2 religion who is in opposite to each other...That is our problem...India knows well that war with Pakistan will not solve in another 100 year as long as war is not imposed on us like Kargil and other wars with Pakistan...

Hence in this situation....If i will be a Pakistan man....i will asking China to invest and select a base for their industry and economic investment rather than a military base...Use your strategic alliance with China for your advantage which you are not using ...That is the craziest thing i have seen from Pakistan posters....When you have a nation like China as a stargic ally, why can not you bargain to get all the financial assistance and loans with suitable terms from China rather than world bank or Saudi's where they have their own interest to use you and exploit you?...

 

[Lil Mathew]

Pakistan has it's own Navy, it doesn't need the PLAN to deploy assets to control India.

However, a defence pact between China and Pakistan will definitely change the aggressive stance by India.

Defence pact between China & Pakistan eventually leads to more aggressive plans by India.. Japan-USA-India- Taiwan-Vietnam.. The list is going on.. So China never go for such a stupid move..

 

[surya kiran]

i was refereing to this below quoted post from yourself. Go through it again and may be then you will understand (as you said you are open to learning) what i have said and shy i have said that.

My dear friend,

I understand, what you are saying. And I know what I have said. Pakistani foreign policy is at extremes. Please note, I am not saying extremist, just extreme.

For example, earlier governments reveled in the American embrace. During this point, no effort was made to figure out the negative of the relationship. Nor was an attempt made to temper the relationship. The same is the current scenario with Chinese. Today, we hear about the zionist plot out to get Pakistan. And how the Americans are all evil. Tomorrow who knows? The Chinese foreign policy is extremely pragmatic. There is a need today for China to engage with Pakistan. It is their necessity. Tomorrow that necessity may no longer exist. Then what? We are already seeing them pull out of projects.

Maybe, I sounded harsh, but, there is a higher possibility of a bigger blow back against the Chinese. We know how communities get treated, when the establishment looks away or when its suited to it. Let's remove the Chinese help, will you still look at the non believing Chinese in a good light. In my limited opinion, I do not think so.

Hence as of now, Indian public although pro american in nature but they do not like any kind of naval base or anything from any external power in our nation...Think about it, even at the height of cold war, when US was supportying Pakistan openly, India did not allow Soviet Union to have a base in India....So if Pakistan officially allows China to have a military base, then Indian Gov will be able to easily convince public to have a strategic alliance with US and the West to have a base or direct engagement with a point that India can not counter China alone....

I beg to differ here. Assume, China has a base in Pakistan. The answer is to have better relations with Vietnam, Japan and Korea. A Chinese base in neighbourhood is also worries for the US. Remember, the biggest navy in this region is the USN. Not the Chinese and not the IN. You will see an increased deployment in ME of the USN. IN already has the highest engagement levels with the USN. A strategic alliance with the US is more detrimental to the Indo-Russian relationship.
Military bases are required in countries whose military capability cannot be built up in numbers to beat an opponent. The US answer to any movies will be to boost capabilities to counter the common opponent.

The Chinese too are not fools. Their capability currently is the SCS region. India and the IOR currently is of secondary importance and this not lost on Chinese planners. The Indian border can be solved. There are no sentiments involved, which makes it easier to solve. The answer to solve the border problem lies in a combination of trouble in the SCS, boosting Indian capabilities and furthering economic trade with China. The answer is not to create problems for the Chinese. The answer is to make an adventure unacceptable.

 

[asq]

Sometimes..I also wonder...are you guys are crazy or mad that you do not utilize that 1962 moments from India...Then histroy could have been different than it is happening now..Who knows if you have taken Kashmir valley...Then there will not have any Kashmir issue and India and Pakistan relation should have been different..

you as an Indian have no real understanding of discussions as you and your leaders take it for granted that if Pakistan fought than they will loos, stop assuming, the rationale at the time to which i was not privy can be speculated so can the Bangladesh war, but this time it will be horrendous so do not wish for the war, do not assume that you will win, donot assume that pakistan sends those people in Kashmir, do not beat up your invited Pakistani guests, it shows that you have no respect for anything Muslim even the guests,

next war wiil be horrendous so donot wish ans on top assume that you will win.

 

[asq]

My dear friend,

I understand, what you are saying. And I know what I have said. Pakistani foreign policy is at extremes. Please note, I am not saying extremist, just extreme.

For example, earlier governments reveled in the American embrace. During this point, no effort was made to figure out the negative of the relationship. Nor was an attempt made to temper the relationship. The same is the current scenario with Chinese. Today, we hear about the zionist plot out to get Pakistan. And how the Americans are all evil. Tomorrow who knows? The Chinese foreign policy is extremely pragmatic. There is a need today for China to engage with Pakistan. It is their necessity. Tomorrow that necessity may no longer exist. Then what? We are already seeing them pull out of projects.

Maybe, I sounded harsh, but, there is a higher possibility of a bigger blow back against the Chinese. We know how communities get treated, when the establishment looks away or when its suited to it. Let's remove the Chinese help, will you still look at the non believing Chinese in a good light. In my limited opinion, I do not think so.



I beg to differ here. Assume, China has a base in Pakistan. The answer is to have better relations with Vietnam, Japan and Korea. A Chinese base in neighbourhood is also worries for the US. Remember, the biggest navy in this region is the USN. Not the Chinese and not the IN. You will see an increased deployment in ME of the USN. IN already has the highest engagement levels with the USN. A strategic alliance with the US is more detrimental to the Indo-Russian relationship.
Military bases are required in countries whose military capability cannot be built up in numbers to beat an opponent. The US answer to any movies will be to boost capabilities to counter the common opponent.

The Chinese too are not fools. Their capability currently is the SCS region. India and the IOR currently is of secondary importance and this not lost on Chinese planners. The Indian border can be solved. There are no sentiments involved, which makes it easier to solve. The answer to solve the border problem lies in a combination of trouble in the SCS, boosting Indian capabilities and furthering economic trade with China. The answer is not to create problems for the Chinese. The answer is to make an adventure unacceptable.

you are assuming too many things, about israel about us youy only have to look at history, if you were not a spion master you will se clearly as to why things turn the way they are, these relation can be differant had these been handled fairly as per Pakistan, nothing is lost or gained but mutual understanding based on facts.

now chinese are differant policy makers, they donot abondon its friend if the friends donot undermine them, look at one aspect of making weapons, us had every thing ristricted even banned on the other hand chinese let us make even passed on all secret info about making jets,

so Pakistan learned a lot from these interactions and is more towards those who stand behind the truth, respect and help its friends in need,

Pakistan in order to help when asked declared even it own groups terrorists who it thought were not being responsible in their actions, would india declare shive sena or modi for its horrendous actions against Muslims and minorities, I think not, so you guys are spin masters, willing to learn, use, but not willing to respect

 

[Abingdonboy]

I have always maintained that Pakistan should sign a defense treaty with China. There is nothing wrong letting Chinese establish military bases in Pakistan. If we can let Americans use our soil only to watch our east wing severed, why not China that has always helped Pakistan in every crisis.

So to "check" India you're willing to sell yourselves to the highest bidder? Pakistani members like to call Indians a lot of names on this site but none of them have ever stipulated having foreign powers stationed on their soil. I guess sovereignty, self respect and pride mean nothing to you?

 

[syedali73]

So to "check" India you're willing to sell yourselves to the highest bidder? Pakistani members like to call Indians a lot of names on this site but none of them have ever stipulated having foreign powers stationed on their soil. I guess sovereignty, self respect and pride mean nothing to you?

Signing up a defense treaty is like selling out oneself to the highest bidder? Why India signed numerous treaties with former USSR (now Russia)? Allowing friendly/allied military presence means nations don't value sovereignty, self respect and pride? What you call Indian presence in Afghanistan? US presence in Japan, Korea, Germany, UK?

 

[Abingdonboy]

US will not like to see Chinese sub basing in Pakistani port and will aggressively equip Indian Navy to counter it

Absurd, India isn't Pakistan or Bangledesh mate. India doesn't take military aid. The Indian military have their requirements based on India's own interests and needs and these are fulfilled on the open market, the US couldn't just force the Indian Navy to start accepting their equipment.

i think it will be better if China extend its military aid to Pakistan to expand its navy to counter any aggression buy India against China or Pakistan

How laughable is this narrative that is being propagated of late. The myth of Indian aggression is being repeated again and again with the hope that mud sticks. Poor China and Pakistan, the innocent victims of this angry and pathetic nation India. Because Pakistan hasn't been supporting a proxy war against India for decades now, has it? China hasn't been expanding their presence in India's neighbourhood or taking an aggressive stance along the LAC, have they?

Signing up a defense treaty is like selling out oneself to the highest bidder?

Except that's not all you said is, it? You called for Chinese military bases on Pakistani soil. So yes, selling oneself to the highest bidder (in my eyes at least).

why India signed numerous treaties with former USSR (now Russia)?

Exactly what treaties did India sign with the USSR/Russia? The same India that was a founding member of the NAM?

And anyway, treaties or not, did India ever allow a single Russian/USSR base on Indian soil? Not once, it was never even open to debate.

Allowing friendly/allied military presence means nations don't value sovereignty, self respect and pride?

Well really it does, what you are saying to your people and the world is " I can't protect myself, I can't guarantee the basic right of safety to my citizens so I'm bringing in some outsiders to do the work".

This is at the crux of the issue, no matter what way you try and spin it.


And especially in the context of Pakistan where your omnipotent military has pillaged and looted such vast amounts of your resources and hoarded as much power as possible all in the name of keeping Pakistan "safe", a(nother) foreign power on your soil is surely a tacit acceptance that your military has failed and all the hardship you have endured because of them has been for nought.

What you call Indian presence in Afghanistan?

What about it? Are you comparing Pakistan to a war-ravaged ailing state with little to no sense of nationhood and abysmal infrastructure?

US presence in Japan, Korea, Germany, UK?

I call it a subversion of their sovereignty and a pretty pathetic state of affairs for all "independent" nations. As a British citizen I find it disgusting how we allow the US military a presence on out land.

 

[syedali73]

Absurd, India isn't Pakistan or Bangledesh mate. ...

I don't have time to spin things nor do I like verbose. Pakistan is weak, both economically and militarily and is facing a very strong enemy both on the eastern (direct facing) and the northern borders (proxy). In an event of full-fledge war, Pakistan sure will give its enemy a bloody nose but may not sustain war for long especially if launched from both the borders. In this situation, Pakistan has to sign treaties with China and welcome her military presence. I am not the one who could be black mailed with words such as pride, subversion of sovereignty, independent nation etc. Based on the ground reality, Pakistan needs Chinese military presence period. All weak countries seek support from their allies and it does not compromise pride or whatever gibberish. Even US seeks support from its allies before going for war, so she lost pride in the process? I don't think so. Pakistanis are proud people but not stupid. We will do whatever deemed necessary for our survival.

 

[Kaniska]

you as an Indian have no real understanding of discussions as you and your leaders take it for granted that if Pakistan fought than they will loos, stop assuming, the rationale at the time to which i was not privy can be speculated so can the Bangladesh war, but this time it will be horrendous so do not wish for the war, do not assume that you will win, donot assume that pakistan sends those people in Kashmir, do not beat up your invited Pakistani guests, it shows that you have no respect for anything Muslim even the guests,

next war wiil be horrendous so donot wish ans on top assume that you will win.

You understood me wrong...I was not implicating for war...rather my point is that Pakistan has a chance to win the war when India was figting...Now the option is even closed...The option is closed does not mean India will win...But with more conservative estimate, India can defend itself properly...So the question is if also at any time war will happen, it will be initiated by Pakistan only....Because Pakisan has to gain the land of Kashmir...We are not desperate to win anyland from Pakistan...So why to do you think India will initiate it...As i mentioned earlier, our priorities and aspirations are different rather than fighting a useless war with Pakistan...

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

i want source, not rumor.


You are either nuts or insane, just try it. Modi is not imbecile selling nukes to Vietnam. If he doing so, India will be sanctioned to death.


deploy oil-rig and selling nukes are totally different matter, are you all right man?

lol , when you supplied Nukes design to PAK, Libya got though PAK , are they sanctioned to Death ? In fact India allowed to buy Iran Oil by US went they hitting out every other company.


Well , Deploying Oil Rig is just the warning to Chinese telling that rules of game is changed. Now you sell further nuke, missile design to PAK, expect us same from our side and it will be on your border..