Shadow Over India's Intermediate Jet Trainer

[SamantK]

It's sas that you have the solution for what India needs. And no Indian thank you. People are just too prideful and want to act like USA in a hurry. Instead, they need to look at the ground reality and do what is sensible for India. Hopefully, you get more thanks than India will be a superpower postings.

What is it you wanna say here??

 

[KRAIT]

Skilled force is there in India, all you have to provide is competitive salary. Even if its little less, Indians wants to live with their family or within the country so that they can reach their homes in few hours. Its our social structure and tradition. This is what we lack in cashing.

A research student hardly gets 10-15k per month where he has sometimes to work 14-18 hours, study a lot, make publications, and god knows what. With less money, he can't enjoy social life as other friends of him enjoy. He can't raise a family on this amount and provide them the luxury he sees his friends having. Still he completes his degree and what does ihe gets. Less pay, more working hours and seeing his friends getting ahead earning in lakhs.

Now people brings that these students should remain in India to work in DRDO and other organizations, its scientists show their patriotism. Show your patriotism and ask govt. to pay them more.

Look at China and how much they fund these development agencies They allow private players too which can pay these Indian home grown talents enough pay.They can provide advanced research facilities.

Or ask govt. to provide these. For cutting edge research, you need advanced testing, manufacturing, experimental facilities with high end super computers, fabrication units, etc. etc.

One has to look at the scenario from an individual (Indian scientist) to entire Research and Development of our country.

Now lets come to collaboration. Indians can go to other countries on fellowships or work with US, UK, Germany, Japan etc . nations' scientists which provide them current advancement and a chance to get these techs. and advancements in our industries. Provide more funding then we currently do. Look at how much China spends on Funding and what India spends.

Stop being emotional, taking it on pride and ego, just get the job done. Try approaching problems with rationality. But before at least understand the problem.

 

[KRAIT]

It's sas that you have the solution for what India needs. And no Indian thank you. People are just too prideful and want to act like USA in a hurry. Instead, they need to look at the ground reality and do what is sensible for India. Hopefully, you get more thanks than India will be a superpower postings.

Buddy I have seen few of the brightest students going to work in a foreign university, getting job in that country's company or in the university itself and getting settled there. They don't want to come back because of this attitude we have. No money first, then no advanced facilities second then no appreciation third.

Also, the management is so narrow minded that they can't think out of the box, either they are not interested or they are just damn lazy. Those who are good, don't get the above three things.

And cherry on top is the "indigenous" development. If ISRO can achieve so much with stringent budget, if we provide more money and facilities at bottom and middle level too, the research output will jump multiple times. There was a news recently that Indian publications increases due to collaboration with foreign scientists. That was done by ISRO scientists.

Indian engineers are very well respected especially from IITs and NITs (autonomous and National Institutes) etc. Its about absorbing the talent rather than letting them drain from our country.

you guys are lucky that your govt, gives so much importance and money on Science and Technology, R&D, allow reverse engineering etc.

These foreign players don't play fair. US stopped Israel to give us AESA radar for our LCA, Russia is making us go crazy over our ACC INS Vikki, France asked way comparatively high price on our Mirages upgrades and Missiles. Why should we ?

Still we want to say, hey we didn't copy or reverse engineer. My answer is we are idiots in this regard.

 

[faithfulguy]

Buddy I have seen few of the brightest students going to work in a foreign university, getting job in that country's company or in the university itself and getting settled there. They don't want to come back because of this attitude we have. No money first, then no advanced facilities second then no appreciation third.

Also, the management is so narrow minded that they can't think out of the box, either they are not interested or they are just damn lazy. Those who are good, don't get the above three things.

And cherry on top is the "indigenous" development. If ISRO can achieve so much with stringent budget, if we provide more money and facilities at bottom and middle level too, the research output will jump multiple times. There was a news recently that Indian publications increases due to collaboration with foreign scientists. That was done by ISRO scientists.

Indian engineers are very well respected especially from IITs and NITs (autonomous and National Institutes) etc. Its about absorbing the talent rather than letting them drain from our country.

you guys are lucky that your govt, gives so much importance and money on Science and Technology, R&D, allow reverse engineering etc.

These foreign players don't play fair. US stopped Israel to give us AESA radar for our LCA, Russia is making us go crazy over our ACC INS Vikki, France asked way comparatively high price on our Mirages upgrades and Missiles. Why should we ?

Still we want to say, hey we didn't copy or reverse engineer. My answer is we are idiots in this regard.

More Indians should agree with your last statement

 

[Sergi]

Still we want to say, hey we didn't copy or reverse engineer. My answer is we are idiots in this regard.

I don't think we lack the skilled Man power to copy paste. Suppose we copy paste MKI as much as we want without taking licence from Russia will Russia cooperate with us in next deal ??? Russia and China relation were stretched when China copy paste flankers and offer to sell it to other countries. Even Russia deny SU-33 or 34 for that.
Copy pasting will close the future door. We aren't technically that advance to afford more door closers on technology. And advantage of MKIsing SU-30 will be seen in MKIing Rafale and FGFA. even LCA mark-2 will be benefited from Rafale. So why should we sacrifice all this for once copy pasting ???

 

[KRAIT]

I don't think we lack the skilled Man power to copy paste. Suppose we copy paste MKI as much as we want without taking licence from Russia will Russia cooperate with us in next deal ??? Russia and China relation were stretched when China copy paste flankers and offer to sell it to other countries. Even Russia deny SU-33 or 34 for that.
Copy pasting will close the future door. We aren't technically that advance to afford more door closers on technology. And advantage of MKIsing SU-30 will be seen in MKIing Rafale and FGFA. even LCA mark-2 will be benefited from Rafale. So why should we sacrifice all this for once copy pasting ???

To take significant leap in technology front. Otherwise we will be behind. First you learn what others have built, apply your brain and make changes which others haven't and which are according to your requirements.

They will keep supplying arms even if we reverse engineer. Look at Quantum Teleportation and Communication thread. You read articles, present research done and then you "Copy" it which results in your own project. Now start making your changes and apply your own brains. ISRO learnt where cost can be reduced from watching other countries and now they have cheaper facility to put a satellite.

Why should we write a research paper if one has already published and you know already. You take that paper, apply more cases which haven't been studied and then you publish one which is extension of previous one and is more realistic or practical.

 

[Sergi]

To take significant leap in technology front. Otherwise we will be behind. First you learn what others have built, apply your brain and make changes which others haven't and which are according to your requirements.

They will keep supplying arms even if we reverse engineer. Look at Quantum Teleportation and Communication thread. You read articles, present research done and then you "Copy" it which results in your own project. Now start making your changes and apply your own brains. ISRO learnt where cost can be reduced from watching other countries and now they have cheaper facility to put a satellite.

Why should we write a research paper if one has already published and you know already. You take that paper, apply more cases which haven't been studied and then you publish one which is extension of previous one and is more realistic or practical.

1. Sir we are behind. And I think we are learning and trying to catch up. We are applying what we learn in various projects and JV. As I said earlier what we will get from Rafale TOT will definatly make its way to LCA Mark2. But sir should HAL produce Rafales (after we finish 106 licence production ) with little changes and continue production saying it changed design ???
HAL can make MKIs from scratch. We learned that by now. So do you think we should continue production and shouldn't ask for any licence ???

2. Application of concepts in your own idea isn't coping. It's tweaking. Every advantage of US jet was studied by USSR and new flankers get those advantages and become better. But they were not copy pasting.
Learning and applying is totally valid. ISRO did it fare and suare. Nobody objects. But it definatly wasn't reverse engineering. Correct me if I am wrong sir.

 

[karan21]

Man I am disappointed. I understand the complexities of such a project, but this sucks that we can't even make a simple trainer jet. Its doesn't have as advanced avionics as the fighter nor any weapons. We truly suck balls. This govt wants monopoly over weapons. And forces want just foreign weapons loll, India is a total mess.

We have built a trainer in 1964, but today we can't. We are the only nation that instead of advancing it's aerospace industry has actually deteoriated it.

 

[faithfulguy]

I don't think we lack the skilled Man power to copy paste. Suppose we copy paste MKI as much as we want without taking licence from Russia will Russia cooperate with us in next deal ??? Russia and China relation were stretched when China copy paste flankers and offer to sell it to other countries. Even Russia deny SU-33 or 34 for that.
N pasting will close the future door. We aren't technically that advance to afford more door closers on technology. And advantage of MKIsing SU-30 will be seen in MKIing Rafale and FGFA. even LCA mark-2 will be benefited from Rafale. So why should we sacrifice all this for once copy pasting ???

When you reverse engineer, you actually experience some of the hardships and trials that the original designer went through. You learn the reason behind each decision. When you get TOT, you only learn how to build a product, but it does not show you how to improve upon a technology. This is why TOT has not really improve India's defense industry.

 

[SamantK]

@KRAIT learning is different than copying...

What the Chinese are doing suits them fine.. But what India is doing suits us fine... We have access to learning which should be utilised..

We do not have to re-invent the wheel but we need to have a independent production where defence is concerned. Because, India still largely follows non-alignment... We have to have independence in critical tech... Which can be jointly developed no issues, which cannot be - we have to..

 

[sancho]

Stop being emotional, taking it on pride and ego, just get the job done. Try approaching problems with rationality. But before at least understand the problem.

Can't agree more buddy!