Serious Problems With Oplot Surfaced During Trials..

[ziaulislam]

Not true at all. Had that be the case, they would have capped the production of Ak with the base model (450 mbts). That didnt happen. In fact, the AK-1 production is now in full swing.

The biggest concern is budget along with the fact that despite working in three shifts, HIT will still churn out 50 tanks a year.

PA needs to replace at least 300 obsolete mbts (non upgraded 59s and 69s) with third generation assets. At 50 mbt per year, how many years will it take to replace them all?

Six damn years!



Malashev plant only manufacturers t-84 Oplots, no other variant is in production. Yes, the Oplot is a radically modernized t-84.

Just radically update the alkhalid or import a radically different tank ...
Which ever happens PA needs to get To the with respect to transmission and engines..we are buying too many engines

 

[Signalian]

The only and reasonable logical conclusion is that the AK is a lemon. To cover this relative failure, they are window-dressing it by keeping production at a very low rate, while trying to find an excuse to import alternatives.

A bit of history on Chinese MBT's to understand AK.

Type-85 --->turned to Type-88. Type-88 MBT was exported to 3 other countries apart from Pakistan and China.
Further on Type-88 was the basis of Type-90 and Type-90 II.
Type-90 II formed the basis of an export tank, MBT-2000 which turned in AK for Pakistan.
Chinese started working towards Type-96 from the Type-90.

MBT-2000 (AK) has been produced in large numbers. In fact, MBT-2000 has also been exported as VT-1A to 4 countries apart from Pakistan.

Export doesn't happen for "lemons".

Al-Haider MBT program is speedy induction of an MBT on basis of T-84 or Chinese MBT, which can be compatible with existing PA MBT's.

AK-II program, is the reason for Al-Haider MBT program, because it ran in delays. So one local MBT induction line and one MBT export source are required to cover the delay. More AK's or AK-1's do not bring in the new tech expected from AK-II. PA eyes AK-II has future and mainstay of PA MBT's.

 

[waz]

So the Thais were indeed spot on with numerous quality issues with this machine, no wonder they didn't order anything after the initial batch and went to China.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...t-m-tank-wont-fight-russia-being-17817?page=3


Pakistan should stay away from this project.
By the way how many AK's does the PA currently field?

 

[Armchair]

A bit of history on Chinese MBT's to understand AK.

Type-85 --->turned to Type-88. Type-88 MBT was exported to 3 other countries apart from Pakistan and China.
Further on Type-88 was the basis of Type-90 and Type-90 II.
Type-90 II formed the basis of an export tank, MBT-2000 which turned in AK for Pakistan.
Chinese started working towards Type-96 from the Type-90.

MBT-2000 (AK) has been produced in large numbers. In fact, MBT-2000 has also been exported as VT-1A to 4 countries apart from Pakistan.

Export doesn't happen for "lemons".

Al-Haider MBT program is speedy induction of an MBT on basis of T-84 or Chinese MBT, which can be compatible with existing PA MBT's.

AK-II program, is the reason for Al-Haider MBT program, because it ran in delays. So one local MBT induction line and one MBT export source are required to cover the delay. More AK's or AK-1's do not bring in the new tech expected from AK-II. PA eyes AK-II has future and mainstay of PA MBT's.

Problem with that argument is that the AK is different in many of its key subsystems from the MBT-2000. The MBT-2000 is a mediocre tank that is cheap, and was readily available in the international market. AK tried to be better, but by doing so, introduced a host of subsystems.

Additionally, AK is manufactured by HIT. Is HIT incompetent? Are the subsystems faulty?

We know that even Toyotas that were being manufactured in Thailand were worse in terms of quality than those in the US, which were worse than those in Japan.

Secondly, it is clear that the Oplot is a close substitute to the AK. AK has a capacity to be produced in larger numbers. In theory, it should be cheaper to produce these. But for some "unknown reasons" AK production is slow.

Now, if money was the problem, they would not be searching for a foreign tank, which by dint of being a foreign tank would be more expensive and would cost precious forex.

This means that the reasons are other than that which is being given.

If PA felt that certain subsystems are not optimal or outdated, it could simply update those systems.

What is the real reason? Because HIT's very anemic production is not natural or normal. It borders on the ridiculous "oh we don't have any money to produce enough tanks" but "lets buy a foreign tank to makeup for the gap in tanks".

What does the Oplot offer that an AK could not?

The rational doesn't seem to fit. This points to only one possible conclusion - that the AK is a lemon. It has constant mechanical failures, either due to careless manufacturing or due to subsystems or both. We also have some indication of this from the Saudi Arabia trials, where the Saudis found the AK to have many breakdowns.

This would naturally cause HIT to slow down production and try to improve quality control. Then they faced issues of faulty and sub-standard parts being supplied by Ukraine. Including engine oil that broke down over 30 AKs. Possibly damaging the engines.

Now, HIT, being the ridiculously incompetently run organization it probably is, has not been able to iron out these issues, or increase production rates. It has therefore made up an excuse that it doesn't have enough money to increase production. Which flies in the face of the far more expensive option of purchasing a new tank from abroad.

Now, I don't mean to be harsh, I'm sure if they put their mind to it they could get this done. I'm just trying to use the available information and come to the rather obvious conclusion.

Not true at all. Had that be the case, they would have capped the production of Ak with the base model (450 mbts). That didnt happen. In fact, the AK-1 production is now in full swing.

The biggest concern is budget along with the fact that despite working in three shifts, HIT will still churn out 50 tanks a year.

PA needs to replace at least 300 obsolete mbts (non upgraded 59s and 69s) with third generation assets. At 50 mbt per year, how many years will it take to replace them all?

Six damn years!



Malashev plant only manufacturers t-84 Oplots, no other variant is in production. Yes, the Oplot is a radically modernized t-84.

Thanks, but HIT has not been meeting the 50 tank per year target and has not done so in a long time... I seriously doubt they are working 3 shifts a day... seriously doubt this. Is there any proof of it?

By the way how many AK's does the PA currently field?

By 2015 it only had 310 AKs! That's remarkably slow! Unbelievable actually. By now they probably would be at 400 (given past rate).

 

[HRK]

Malashev plant only manufacturers t-84 Oplots, no other variant is in production.

I believe these tanks are the recently modernised T-84 which were previously in storage
and both Malyshev Plant and Kharkiv Morozov Machine-Building Design Bureau were involved but the upgrade and modernisation was the responsibility of Kharkiv Morozov.
https://www.army-technology.com/news/ukrainian-armed-forces-receive-next-batch-upgraded-t-84-tanks/
https://defence-blog.com/army/ukraine-upgrades-its-antiquated-t-84-main-battle-tanks.html
https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-po...ernized-t-84-tanks-ukraines-armed-forces.html

 

[Dazzler]

Problem with that argument is that the AK is different in many of its key subsystems from the MBT-2000. The MBT-2000 is a mediocre tank that is cheap, and was readily available in the international market. AK tried to be better, but by doing so, introduced a host of subsystems.

Additionally, AK is manufactured by HIT. Is HIT incompetent? Are the subsystems faulty?

We know that even Toyotas that were being manufactured in Thailand were worse in terms of quality than those in the US, which were worse than those in Japan.

Secondly, it is clear that the Oplot is a close substitute to the AK. AK has a capacity to be produced in larger numbers. In theory, it should be cheaper to produce these. But for some "unknown reasons" AK production is slow.

Now, if money was the problem, they would not be searching for a foreign tank, which by dint of being a foreign tank would be more expensive and would cost precious forex.

This means that the reasons are other than that which is being given.

If PA felt that certain subsystems are not optimal or outdated, it could simply update those systems.

What is the real reason? Because HIT's very anemic production is not natural or normal. It borders on the ridiculous "oh we don't have any money to produce enough tanks" but "lets buy a foreign tank to makeup for the gap in tanks".

What does the Oplot offer that an AK could not?

The rational doesn't seem to fit. This points to only one possible conclusion - that the AK is a lemon. It has constant mechanical failures, either due to careless manufacturing or due to subsystems or both. We also have some indication of this from the Saudi Arabia trials, where the Saudis found the AK to have many breakdowns.

This would naturally cause HIT to slow down production and try to improve quality control. Then they faced issues of faulty and sub-standard parts being supplied by Ukraine. Including engine oil that broke down over 30 AKs. Possibly damaging the engines.

Now, HIT, being the ridiculously incompetently run organization it probably is, has not been able to iron out these issues, or increase production rates. It has therefore made up an excuse that it doesn't have enough money to increase production. Which flies in the face of the far more expensive option of purchasing a new tank from abroad.

Now, I don't mean to be harsh, I'm sure if they put their mind to it they could get this done. I'm just trying to use the available information and come to the rather obvious conclusion.



Thanks, but HIT has not been meeting the 50 tank per year target and has not done so in a long time... I seriously doubt they are working 3 shifts a day... seriously doubt this. Is there any proof of it?



By 2015 it only had 310 AKs! That's remarkably slow! Unbelievable actually. By now they probably would be at 400 (given past rate).

Read the post again.

 

[MastanKhan]

So it seems all of the options have issues... but then why don't we develop our own with JV?

Hi,

Look at it from this perspective----. Here is Ukraine with decades of experience in Tank building---engine manufacture etc etc etc---and here is Pakistan with no experience at all---. Whatever Pakistan's experience has---it is in JV's---.

So---who has a better chance of building a better product---???

This is just food for thought---.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

Look at it from this perspective----. Here is Ukraine with decades of experience in Tank building---engine manufacture etc etc etc---and here is Pakistan with no experience at all---. Whatever Pakistan's experience has---it is in JV's---.

So---who has a better chance of building a better product---???

This is just food for thought---.

Good point but JV lets you select different partners for different subsystems. So engine from Ukraine while autoloader system from AK-II, while electronics from T-99 of China.. So you need strong project management and visionary leadership.

 

[araz]

Not true at all. Had that be the case, they would have capped the production of Ak with the base model (450 mbts). That didnt happen. In fact, the AK-1 production is now in full swing.

The biggest concern is budget along with the fact that despite working in three shifts, HIT will still churn out 50 tanks a year.

PA needs to replace at least 300 obsolete mbts (non upgraded 59s and 69s) with third generation assets. At 50 mbt per year, how many years will it take to replace them all?

Six damn years!



Malashev plant only manufacturers t-84 Oplots, no other variant is in production. Yes, the Oplot is a radically modernized t-84.

Hi Dazzler.
What is stopping HIT producing more tanks? Is it finances, or capacity or lack of mechanisation? Does anyone know what can be done to improve the production rate?
A

 

[Dazzler]

Hi Dazzler.
What is stopping HIT producing more tanks? Is it finances, or capacity or lack of mechanisation? Does anyone know what can be done to improve the production rate?
A

introduce robotic assembly lines and inject the much needed finance. They are now thinking on these lines.

 

[araz]

introduce robotic assembly lines and inject the much needed finance. They are now thinking on these lines.

Thought that might be the case.
A

 

[Umair Nawaz]

if we dont buy these tanks, then where would 1500 hp engines will come from for AK-2?

 

[HAIDER]

Ukraine to investigate the cause of the failure of the tanks «Oplot» at the competition in Germany

Posted By: newsmaker 29.06.2018

© Photo : U.S. Army / Spc. Rolyn KropfУкраинские soldiers from the 14th Volyn mechanized brigade APU on the T-84 during the competition Strong Europe Tank Challenge in Grafenwoehr, Germany. June 6, 2018

© Photo : U.S. Army / Spc. Rolyn Kropf


Ukraine has established a working group to determine the causes of technical and structural deficiencies in tanks T-84 «Oplot», which had a poor performance in international competitions Strong Europe Tank Challenge-2018 in Germany, according to the portal «Obozrevatel».

The representatives of the concern «Ukroboronprom» enterprises, making work on the T-84, Ministry of defence, General staff, command of the Land forces of the Armed forces of Ukraine discussed the failure of «hold» identified during the competition in Germany at the «round table» and decided to establish a working group to identify the weaknesses of the tank, and to determine effective means of preventing such incidents.

The press service of the concern «Ukroboronprom» said that in 2018, the repair and modernization was subjected to the fire control system of five tanks T-84.

«After the completion of the work, in accordance with the existing order, was carried out by admission of these tanks by conducting acceptance testing, including validation of the customer, in this case the Ministry of defence of Ukraine, all components and assemblies, quality of work done and fixing all the issues. And in the case of detecting them — a technique not accepted», — noted in «Ukroboronprom».

The group also stressed that did not identify weaknesses in T-84 during the inspection and during the tests.

«After that transferred to the main battle tanks T-84 is actively operated, including, in accordance with the Ministry of defense of Ukraine, has proved its effectiveness during the international exercise Combined Resolve X» — added the press service.
The Ukrainian team took the last place in the competition Strong Tank Europe Challenge, organized by the Bundeswehr and the American army, gaining 950 points. In the first place is Germany, with 1450 points. This year, in addition to Ukraine and Germany, participated in competitions of teams from six countries — Austria, USA, France, UK, Sweden and Poland.

The competition is held in 2016 in the German town of Grafenwoehr and includes 12 stages, including a fire in the offense and defense, as well as performing different exercises, including the firing of staff weapons of the crew, calling fire support, driving combat vehicles, target recognition, the steps in the application of enemy weapons of mass destruction, and evacuation of damaged tanks.

 

[GriffinsRule]

What @Armchair says has validity. HIT production has been anemic over the last decade and certainly there are no 3 shifts operating there on the production line. The reason behind it are probably multiple, but AK not meeting the capabilities of T-90 is probably one of them as as to why PA is looking at an off-the-shelf purchase. If we are to replace 300 tanks in 6 years, that is a very short time actually and would be great. Lets not forget the trials for new MBTs themselves have been going on for 2 years now.
There was a mahaz episode on HIT recently where the army official in charge admitted that the production was slow due to low numbers of orders placed, hence the budget allocation being small, as well as HIT being involved in upkeep and refurbish work for PA inventory.
That does allude to two things ... PA does not want to produce more Al-Khalids, hence have not allocated enough funds for their production, and secondly there is a shortage of trained personnel as well perhaps to keep both operations running parallel. Neither are insurmountable problems really and one is as a result of the other.
There has been mention of the need to upgrade the machinery and automate some of the production line, but there is no indication so far of whether such an upgrade has been implemented or if it is still on paper. But if we don't have a tank to produce and are going to be buying one from a third party, such an upgrade would be a waste of money anyways.
We have already discussed one other reason for the slow production in other threads as well, and that relates to perhaps the inability of Pakistan to make specialized steel (or in quantity) to support the full ramp production but AK or the idea of AKII/III is not a new one and PA should have seen it coming ten years ago.
Any other speculations as to the reason behind slow induction of AK and no AKII.

 

[iby32]

G

Nothing is problem free what matters is you have capacity to make your own or with Collaboration with turkey

Pakistan started the Al Khalid program in 1990 we should be making all necessary tech for next model by now it is 40 years

From 1990-2018 doesn't make 40 years