What's new

Sending Pakistan to Mars

When spacecraft Mangalyaan successfully entered the Martian orbit in late September after a 10-month journey, India erupted in joy. Costing more than an F-16 but less than a Rafale, Mangalyaan’s meticulous planning and execution established India as a space-faring country. Although Indians had falsely celebrated their five nuclear tests of 1998 — which were based upon well-known physics of the 1940s — the Mars mission is a true accomplishment.

Pakistanis may well ask: can we do it too? What will it take? Seen in the proper spirit, India’s foray into the solar system could be Pakistan’s sputnik moment — an opportunity to reflect upon what’s important.

Let’s see how India did it: First, space travel is all about science and India’s young ones are a huge reservoir of enthusiasm for science. Surveys show that 12-16 year olds practically worship Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking, are fascinated by black holes and Schrödinger cats, and most want a career in science. They see more prestige in this than becoming doctors, lawyers, financial managers, or army officers. Although most eventually settle for more conventional professions, this eagerness leads India’s very best students towards science.

Ten years ago, I had personally experienced this youthful enthusiasm during a four-week lecture tour across seven Indian cities that took me to all sorts of schools, colleges, and universities. In places, hundreds turned up for my talks on scientific subjects. Every city had at least one much-visited science museum, and sometimes two or three. Student scientific societies, which appeared active, were everywhere.

Second, Indian universities have created the necessary backbone for advanced scientific projects. University quality goes from moderately bad to very good, with the median lying around fair. Many mediocre ones produce rotten science PhDs and publications prodigiously, suffocating growth. On the positive side, research in the theoretical sciences carried out in India’s very best universities — as well as institutes such as TIFR and IMSC — compares favourably with that in the world’s top universities.

Rigorous entry standards for students, and a careful selection of faculty, have been important ingredients for this relative success. National examinations for entrance into the Indian Institutes of Technology would make the best students anywhere in the world sweat.

Third, India values — nay, venerates — its top mathematicians and scientists. There is scarcely an Indian I’ve met who doesn’t know the story of Srinivasa Ramanujan, the child prodigy from Madras who astonished the world of high mathematics but tragically died at the age of 32. India is dotted with institutes bearing such names as S.N. Bose, C.V. Raman, M. Saha, and Homi Bhabha.

Back to space: a developing country looking at faraway Mars can take either the Arab way or the Chinese-Indian way.

The first needs a ticket. Petrodollars paid for Prince Salman ibn Saud, the first Arab in space, and put him aloft an American space shuttle in 1985. Recently the UAE announced plans for a Mars mission within 18 years. Just as cash and foreign experts built Dubai and its mega-sized airport, they will also put sheikhs on planets.

But how can we cash-strapped Pakistanis get to our bit of the solar system? Or establish a presence — which we so far lack — in the world of science? The process will be slow, but here is how to do it.

First, create enthusiasm in our young people for science. Space exploration is only a part of the larger whole. Instead of TV channels saturated with dharna news and random political “experts”, have good educational programmes. Standards of English in Pakistan must improve; they have fallen so low that English-language TV channels no longer exist. Sadly, the world of science is closed to those who can only read or understand Urdu.

Second, we must re-educate ourselves to know the difference between science and “cargo science”. This phrase, borrowed from anthropology, was introduced by the physicist Richard Feynman during his 1974 commencement address at the California Institute of Technology.

Feynman said: “In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During [the Second World War] they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they’ve arranged to imitate things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas — he’s the controller — and they wait for the airplanes to land. They’re doing everything right. The form is perfect. But it doesn’t work. No airplanes land. So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they’re missing something essential, because the planes don’t land.”

We must stop teaching a kind of science in Pakistani schools which is science only in name but which bypasses its essence — evidence and reasoning. Students experience mathematics as a bunch of cookbook prescriptions, physics and chemistry are mountains of formulae, and experimental science has been almost totally banished.

Our universities need even more drastic reform. Desperate to show evidence of improvement, government organisations such as the Higher Education Commission and Pakistan Council for Science and Technology have institutionalised a reward system that has led to armies of cargo PhDs — with wooden pieces sticking out of their heads — as well as mountains of cargo publications. Serious de-weeding is needed else academic fakes will crowd out the few genuine academic scientists around.

Third, and last, individual scientific achievement must be recognised while narrow prejudices, both religious and ethnic, must be firmly rejected. India has had many, but Pakistan has had only one great scientist — Abdus Salam. His tragic marginalisation must be reversed. This will be a strong signal that the country is finally prepared to move into the future.

Sending Pakistan to Mars - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
didnt read it…..
but one thing is for sure… we don't need to go to mars…
 
.
and here we have another self proclaimed bragger of India, as far as us being military minded is concerned, to me that claim is too childish to even respond, perhaps that slur might work in irrational Pakistan India argument, as far as educational system and industrial base is concerned, like i said competent minds are here they just need to be exploited.

Have you got the resources to exploit? Have you got the economy to exploit? Have you even got an atmosphere that could guarantee an exploit?... Hard Facts, take it with a pinch of salt.
 
Last edited:
.
I think Muslim's belief that Koran is the last word for everything , makes religious Muslim community averse from finding new knowledge beyond Koran. If Koran is the ultimate knowledge then it is natural that seeking any knowledge which is not there in Koran is a simple waste of time. So Muslims respect their clerics who can explain knowledge depicted in Koran and not the scientists who try to teach them knowledge which is not in Koran.

Even if God told whatever written in Koran, it was told in a particular time and space. Koran was truly revolutionary in the time when it was created. But the world is ever changing and hence the knowledge too. As Koran is a constant, it is philosophically difficult to adapt with changing universe and changing body of knowledge. There must be some mechanism in Islam to handle this barrier. Mr. Abdus Salam probably belongs to a community which does not buy this theory fully.

If we think about India, content of Vedas were believed to be uttered by God (Apourusheya) and un changeable, Bramhins who knew Vadas were supreme in the society.

"In Hinduism, Apaurusheya (IAST: Apauruṣeya), Sanskrit, meaning "not the work of man", is used to describe the Vedas, the main scripture in Hinduism. This implies that the Vedas are not authored by human but were divine creation.Apaurusheya shabda ("words not created by mankind") is an extension of apaurusheya which refers to the Vedas."

Later 2000 years back, development of Nastik (Anti Veda) philosophy like Sankhya and Budhistm hit the bastion of old Hindu religion and a space for open and free thinking emerged. This followed a golden era of knowledge ie Gupta era when lot of epoch-making developments happened in all fields.

In Europe , till Churches were all powerful, there were no incentive for excelling in Science and Technology. Rather we all know what happened to great thinkers like Galileo , Bruno etc. They had to die just to tell that Earth is moving around the Sun!!! Once Church's power reduced, Europe excelled in science and technology.

My knowledge is limited ,so I am not claiming anything in support of above theory. It just came in my mind in the context of world history and development of Science and technology over last 2000 years. I have no desire to hurt any religious sentiment. Please forgive in case I unknowingly did that while telling my thought.

I have a similar theory on why ancient India was developed very much in Math, astrophysics, philosophy etc but not in Technology . I think there is a link with social and religious structure prevailing in that time is responsible for this too which I may explain later.

here is a link where you can find the answers of your questions

Quran and Science

Islamic Research Foundation
 
.
Pakistan has the brain, more than the Indians but we have a huge problem, which is an obstacle in the way of success & achievements for Pakistan. That huge obstacle is or are corrupt & spineless politicians.
 
.
In the beginning , I want to say that I don't thing that India is a very advanced scientific nation. Lot of things need to be done. Our poverty is definitely a barrier for this, no doubt.

But when I think that after having so much wealth why Muslim world did not progress in Science and technology?

Before telling by analysis, I must say that I have no negatives about Islam or any other religion rather I respect them.

I think Muslim's belief that Koran is the last word for everything , makes religious Muslim community averse from finding new knowledge beyond Koran. If Koran is the ultimate knowledge then it is natural that seeking any knowledge which is not there in Koran is a simple waste of time. So Muslims respect their clerics who can explain knowledge depicted in Koran and not the scientists who try to teach them knowledge which is not in Koran.

Even if God told whatever written in Koran, it was told in a particular time and space. Koran was truly revolutionary in the time when it was created. But the world is ever changing and hence the knowledge too. As Koran is a constant, it is philosophically difficult to adapt with changing universe and changing body of knowledge. There must be some mechanism in Islam to handle this barrier. Mr. Abdus Salam probably belongs to a community which does not buy this theory fully.

If we think about India, content of Vedas were believed to be uttered by God (Apourusheya) and un changeable, Bramhins who knew Vadas were supreme in the society.

"In Hinduism, Apaurusheya (IAST: Apauruṣeya), Sanskrit, meaning "not the work of man", is used to describe the Vedas, the main scripture in Hinduism. This implies that the Vedas are not authored by human but were divine creation.Apaurusheya shabda ("words not created by mankind") is an extension of apaurusheya which refers to the Vedas."

Later 2000 years back, development of Nastik (Anti Veda) philosophy like Sankhya and Budhistm hit the bastion of old Hindu religion and a space for open and free thinking emerged. This followed a golden era of knowledge ie Gupta era when lot of epoch-making developments happened in all fields.

In Europe , till Churches were all powerful, there were no incentive for excelling in Science and Technology. Rather we all know what happened to great thinkers like Galileo , Bruno etc. They had to die just to tell that Earth is moving around the Sun!!! Once Church's power reduced, Europe excelled in science and technology.

My knowledge is limited ,so I am not claiming anything in support of above theory. It just came in my mind in the context of world history and development of Science and technology over last 2000 years. I have no desire to hurt any religious sentiment. Please forgive in case I unknowingly did that while telling my thought.

I have a similar theory on why ancient India was developed very much in Math, astrophysics, philosophy etc but not in Technology . I think there is a link with social and religious structure prevailing in that time is responsible for this too which I may explain later.
Your posts shows your level off ignorance off Islam I know many strictly religious people studying science and even related to space the only problem we are shot off money to fund our programs the moment we get funds we would have all off achievements
 
.
Your posts shows your level off ignorance off Islam I know many strictly religious people studying science and even related to space the only problem we are shot off money to fund our programs the moment we get funds we would have all off achievements

Lack of fund is an issue which both of our country share. Do you think that Saudi and Qatar have same problem of funding. Why they are not investing in Science and Technology? They are investing billions of dollar in spreading Islam. How much they are investing on Science and Technology? They are spending huge money in Madrasas. How many Madrasas teach advance science & Technology? UAE is out of such blind ideology to some extent and they are odd man out in middle east . They will be a named in the field of science and technology soon.

It is a very easy escape route to blame poverty and some other things for all our backwardness. But at the end of day we are deceiving ourselves and nobody else. World is not there to care or even think for us. We have to make ourselves relevant in the world and we have to give our people a good standard of living.

Individually few Muslims ( may be religious) may excel in scientific research. Individually few Muslim may excel in killing people in the name of religion. But both of them are exception in core Islamic philosophy.

So please explain why Muslim world having so much wealth ( not Pakistan, India, Bangladesh) is so backward in Science and technology. I think the reason is there is no philosophical incentive to excel in those fields as per popular explanation of Islam/Koran. Please give any alternative explanation if you have.
 
.
I know, but the reason Pakistan languishes in scientific accomplishments is the same reason most of the developing world (Muslim and non-Muslim) lags: a corrupt society ruled by corrupt politicians; no accountability, no vision, no nothing. Just coasting along, hoping for the best, with no long term planning..

Bringing religion into the discussion only serves to distract from the other issues.
reading his article, I get the impression that he is saying: India is not much different from pakistan. They got some good scintific mind.. so does pakistan.
(both have corruption, poverty etc)
The difference he observed are: Indian kids are more enthusiastic about science... and Indian scientists get more respect in their own country(which means more kids get inspired) compared to pakistan.

So the question is, is it just the investement in the infrastructure (India has access to more resource) or is there something else that makes India look more successful in endeavour related to science and tech.
The religion bit was added because Abdus Salam, I dont think he is complaining about islam as such (or in no way implying one religion is better than other)
 
.
is there something else that makes India look more successful in endeavour related to science and tech.

That's a good question and my guess -- I will never live down what I am about to write -- is that India's success is due to the BJP.

The root cause of Pakistan's misfortunes is the ruling cabal, which remains functional because there are only a few players: two dynastic families and a handful of generals.

However, it's much harder to form a cabal, and to keep it intact over decades, if there are too many players. If the dynastic Congress had been matched by a dynastic opposition party in India, they may also have formed a cabal to take turns ruling India. As it is, the BJP is not dynastic, which destroys any possibility of an unspoken dynastic alliance with Congress and forces Indian governments to remain relatively honest and accountable.

Maybe this analysis is simplistic. I am sure there are other factors, too.
 
.
Well all that much science and yet no toilets as many members pointed out


Paisa , its about about Paisa


...................... Security x Justice x Educated People X Hard Work
Progress = -------------------------------------------------------------------------
...................... Corruption X VIP culture X IMF loans


Progress means more paisa and that results in more funding for University

@WebMaster how come a troll post like the above does not get a warning while my innocent post pointing out that the reason why there are ISIS flags appearning in Kashmir is because of a confidence crisis in Pak's support gets a warning?
 
.
That's a good question and my guess -- I will never live down what I am about to write -- is that India's success is due to the BJP.

The root cause of Pakistan's misfortunes is the ruling cabal, which remains functional because there are only a few players: two dynastic families and a handful of generals.

However, it's much harder to form a cabal, and to keep it intact over decades, if there are too many players. If the dynastic Congress had been matched by a dynastic opposition party in India, they may also have formed a cabal to take turns ruling India. As it is, the BJP is not dynastic, which destroys any possibility of an unspoken dynastic alliance with Congress and forces Indian governments to remain relatively honest and accountable.

Maybe this analysis is simplistic. I am sure there are other factors, too.
You are right, in sense that your analysis is rather simplistic.

BJP is as dynastic as congress (or NCP or Sena or any other party in India... with only possible exception of communists)
And frankly dynastic politics cannot be blamed for everything that is wrong in India.
Congress has never been averse to funding any scintific/technological progress. The support our scientific community get is nearly same irrespective of the party in power, ever since since Nehru elavated it to a religion.
What they could not achieve is a breakthrugh in making science and rational thought mainstream. Which is why you see a country full of people believing various types of magic and a few elite group of people trying to break away and achieve something. In this regard we are more or less same as pakistan.

The difference the author is trying to say, is that Indians hero worship scientists which means more youngsters can see them as scientist compared to pakistani youngsters. Not sure if its true.
 
.
Pakistan has the brain, more than the Indians but we have a huge problem, which is an obstacle in the way of success & achievements for Pakistan. That huge obstacle is or are corrupt & spineless politicians.

Amazing analysis. This statement itself proves the issues involved here. ;)

As repeatedly pointed out, you are doing OK as the other half of Af-Pak where all your heroes came from.

No need to compare with Hindu India which has nothing to do with you.
 
.
BJP is as dynastic as congress (or NCP or Sena or any other party in India... with only possible exception of communists)

OK. I was going by the claims here by Indians that Congress is dynastic and BJP is more diverse.
Individual constituencies in BJP may be dynastic, but I don't see an overarching dynastic presence as we see in Congress, PML-N and PPP. Those latter parties are formed around the dynastic core.

Congress has never been averse to funding any scintific/technological progress. The support our scientific community get is nearly same irrespective of the party in power, ever since since Nehru elavated it to a religion.

My point was that the lack of a cabal forces _all_ parties to be more accountable to voters.

In Pakistan, democracy is a sham because the two dynastic parties are partners-in-crime to perpetuate the current charade. Zardari held office for five years, and God only knows what he did sitting in office all day for five years. Nawaz Sharif will have his turn at the trough, then little Bilawal will have his turn, then ...

The difference the author is trying to say, is that Indians hero worship scientists which means more youngsters can see them as scientist compared to pakistani youngsters. Not sure if its true.

Pakistani kids in urban areas also respect scientists but, as I alluded to earlier, the ruling cabal wants to keep the rural masses uneducated. Your (and the author's) observation is a symptom of the problem, not the root cause.
 
.
With minds like hoodbhoy I would agree that Pakistan has brains. So what is his position in government. He should be made HEC head and allowed to make radical change in education
 
.
That's a good question and my guess -- I will never live down what I am about to write -- is that India's success is due to the BJP.

The root cause of Pakistan's misfortunes is the ruling cabal, which remains functional because there are only a few players: two dynastic families and a handful of generals.

However, it's much harder to form a cabal, and to keep it intact over decades, if there are too many players. If the dynastic Congress had been matched by a dynastic opposition party in India, they may also have formed a cabal to take turns ruling India. As it is, the BJP is not dynastic, which destroys any possibility of an unspoken dynastic alliance with Congress and forces Indian governments to remain relatively honest and accountable.

Maybe this analysis is simplistic. I am sure there are other factors, too.

IK party is not dynastic,

BTW, I want to see a new Secular National Party with Capitalist mindset in India, I was very happy when AAP rising as national party.
But they did so much blunder, the people choose a party for there own welfare, not for public stunts.
You know Aravind Kejriwal also did that same thing on Republic Day, what the IK doing right now. But it totally backfired.
 
. .

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom