Secular and Nationalist Jinnah Review

[SoulSpokesman]

@Joe Shearer @I.R.A @Psychic

Psychic mian may shed some light on this extract from the famous 8/11 speech

We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State.

Now if what our beloved Qaid (RA) said is true, then does it not mean:

1. That the Khalifa/head of state of Pakistan can be a non-Muslim.
2. That there can be no discriminatory form of taxation between Muslim and non-Muslim.

Then we may examine further.

Regards

 

[I.R.A]

You, Sir, are by no means insignificant, and have shown an ability to take a nuanced position that immediately refreshes one's understanding of the subject. In this case, the question of Maulana Jinnah's relationship to HE Mr. Jinnah. I just adduced, by way of a friendly warning, your friend's past track record. For myself, I shall read both sets of arguments with pleasure, and, no doubt, to my benefit.

Thank you sir, for the warning. I hope Soul bai would show some mercy and go easy with me .. by the way he has shown his agreement to some of my arguments. All in all it would be an interesting exchange and experience for me ....... a backward Pakistani villager debating with SoulSpokesman of the Solespokesman.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@I.R.A mian

Never underestimate the wisdom of a villager (Pakistani or otherwise):

A learned Brahmin and a mallah were travelling together on a boat.

The Brahmin asked the mallah: Do you know the Vedas?
Mallah: No.
Brahmin: Oh dear, 1/4th of your life is wasted.
Then again: Do you know the Upanishads
Mallah: No
Brahmin: Oh dear, 1/2 your life is wasted. Have you read the Puranas
Mallah: No
Brahmin: 3/4 th of your life is wasted

Just then a huge storm comes up.
Mallah: Sir, do you know swimming?
Brahmin: No.

Then the Mallah says" Then, I am afraid your whole life is wasted" and saying thus jumps off the boat and swims to safety.

Regards

 

[I.R.A]

@Joe Shearer @I.R.A @Psychic

Psychic mian may shed some light on this extract from the famous 8/11 speech

We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State.

Now if what our beloved Qaid (RA) said is true, then does it not mean:

1. That the Khalifa/head of state of Pakistan can be a non-Muslim.
2. That there can be no discriminatory form of taxation between Muslim and non-Muslim.

Then we may examine further.

Regards

Soul bai I would first like to read upon ....... how, what our beloved Quaid said in his speech of 8/11 in anyway is against Quran and contradicts Islam and its rulings? To me what Jinnah said .... are words of a person who understands Islam, its principles and its message. Similar words were said by Caliph Umer " Mothers give birth to free Humans who are you to enslave them" ........ equal humans, equal citizens .........

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@I.R.A

how, what our beloved Quaid said in his speech of 8/11 in anyway is against Quran and contradicts Islam and its rulings?

Since I know nothing of Islam or the Quran, I cant opine in either direction.

But @Psychic mian who seems to be as great a scholar of Islam as you are suggests that in an Islamic state, a non-Muslim cannot be the head of state. That contradicts the first principle of 8/11. Perhaps you can shed some light?

Regards

 

[I.R.A]

@I.R.A

how, what our beloved Quaid said in his speech of 8/11 in anyway is against Quran and contradicts Islam and its rulings?

Since I know nothing of Islam or the Quran, I cant opine in either direction.

But @Psychic mian who seems to be as great a scholar of Islam as you are suggests that in an Islamic state, a non-Muslim cannot be the head of state. That contradicts the first principle of 8/11. Perhaps you can shed some light?

Regards

Soul bai Quaid said equal citizens ........ if you agree with my definition and concept of Islamic State, then you would also agree that Quaid wanted an Islamic state (which I keep parroting) that would look after all its citizens without distinction of religion, color, creed, now in such an Islamic state the idea that a non Muslim can be head of state, which would formulate its laws within immutable guidance of Quran is redundant, impracticable, a try at an experiment whose outcome is already known. Secondly the head of state in my conceived Islamic state doesn't enjoy much freedom, power and authority ...... instead is burdened with accountability both here and hereafter.

Your other point about the taxation system ........ well in olden age Zakat was a heavier tax than Jiziya. But in modern age we have a taxation system that taxes even the infant products ....... its not a big deal, everyone will have to pay equal tax because we already have well defined borders and nationalities now.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@I.R.A

Secondly the head of state in my conceived Islamic state doesn't enjoy much freedom, power and authority ...... instead is burdened with accountability both here and hereafter.

There is much truth and beauty in what you write. As my mentor the great Kaalchakra once observed on chowk.com, the rights of Muslims and non-Muslims are equal but not identical in a truly Islamic state.

But that is besides the point- as the Qaid said "Hindus and Muslims will cease being Hindus and Muslims in political sense of the term"- which of course contradicts your and psychic mians observations about the Islamic state, in a truly Islamic state, Muslims and non-Muslims will continue to remain Muslims/non-Muslims, equal but needless to say not identical.

Regards

 

[I.R.A]

But that is besides the point- as the Qaid said "Hindus and Muslims will cease being Hindus and Muslims in political sense of the term"- which of course contradicts your and psychic mians observations about the Islamic state, in a truly Islamic state, Muslims and non-Muslims will continue to remain Muslims/non-Muslims, equal but needless to say not identical.

Regards

Soul bai ....... it has to be seen and ascertained what Quaid meant by phrase "Political sense of the term" ...... it could have been said to say something like that two nation theory has achieved its goal so further carrying and application of this theory within newly formed Pakistan would achieve distrust only and may lead to anarchy. It could have been said to help sooth concerns of the Hindus living in this region .......... but still nowhere its near to suggesting that it can be dragged to apply to the head of state ...... functionaries and other dignitaries of state are open to everyone with enough competence and skills ....... as it has happened in past.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

I.R.A

Did our beloved Qaid ever say that non-Muslims couldnt be head of state in Pakistan?

Didnt Mahmudabad leave ML because it was unwilling to accept the concept of Islamic state?

Last, but not the least didnt the Qaid say that Mirzais were Muslims?

Regards

 

[Desert Fox]

There are a few conditions, for example;

• Khalifa must be a practicing Muslim.
• Khalifa and members of shura are elected on merit, not by the number of votes.
• Non- Muslims are exempt from conscription.
• Non Muslims pay jizya and Muslims pay Zakat.
• Economic system is interest free.
• Acts forbidden by Islam e.g consumption of alcohol, adultery, homosexuality, nudity etc are punishable.

The above mentioned criteria wont be met by a secular state.

I am yet to understand why our so called "Liberals" oppose any of the above.

Another false narrative which this tabqa is trying to shove down our throats is that we need to be secular if we want to progress. Laughable.
As if poverty, economic instability, crimes, lack of education etc will some how disappear automatically if we change the name of the country to Republic of Pakistan and legalize booze and homosexuality.
Actually I read a post a long time ago on pdf stating that if we want to progress, the first step would be to allow homosexuality in our society.

Homosexuality, Feminism, etc. are signs of civilizational decay rather than progress. If you look at the era when the West was most dominant in the world it was also very conservative and masculine (colonial era). Homosexualism was considered a mental disorder (rightfully so) and women were forbidden to vote and discouraged from work.

Our "Liberals/secularists" are ignorant of historical realty.

 

[I.R.A]

Did our beloved Qaid ever say that non-Muslims couldnt be head of state in Pakistan?

Soul bai I have given you explanation for that already, it won't make any sense for Quaid to say this specifically and clearly, it was unnecessary, neither I guess he thought of himself to be the sole authority to declare this. In any case suppose a state that seeks guidance from Quran for lawmaking, how a non Muslim (a Person who doesn't believe in Quran) fits in as a head of state? Why would he / she want to be in such a position?

Didnt Mahmudabad leave ML because it was unwilling to accept the concept of Islamic state?

I have no knowledge about Mahmudabad leaving ML ........ can you please educate me on this.

Last, but not the least didnt the Qaid say that Mirzais were Muslims?

Did the Quaid know that Mr Ghulam Ahmed Mirza considered all who didn't believe him infidels?

I would prefer discussing this with Qadiyani(s) ....... I think I have already conveyed my thoughts on this on another thread where you were also a participant. We have an identity issue to solve between us, nothing more nothing less.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@I.R.A

IRA mian,

Did the Quaid know that Mr Ghulam Ahmed Mirza considered all who didn't believe him infidels?

The Qaid strikes me as a kind of person who knew as much about Islam and its personages as I do about Hindooism and its key personages, chances are that it is quite unlikely that he knew much about MGAQ's views.

Btw, can a Muslima be a khalifa/ head of state of an ideal Islamic state.

Regards

 

[I.R.A]

Btw, can a Muslima be a khalifa/ head of state of an ideal Islamic state.

Soul bai do you want a straight blunt online answer or you want an answer with a rational reasoning behind it?

 

[SoulSpokesman]

Straight blunt answer along with a rationale.

Thanks in advance @I.R.A mian

Regards

 

[I.R.A]

Straight blunt answer along with a rationale.

Thanks in advance @I.R.A mian

Regards

Sir the straight blunt answer is No

I assume your asking woman head of state, stems out of gender equality concept?

So assuming that, the rationale ........ I believe gender equality is a fantasy, deprived of any truth. I am already saying these same words on another thread ...... Men and women have very different roles, because their anatomy is different, their strengths are different, their functions in society are different. I have said this here on this forum once before, men cannot start bleeding every month and women cannot start secreting semen ...... tough roles do demand gender discrimination, I won't want a lady to lead the Indian military, I won't want a lady to have access to red buttons .... not because I have some sorts of bias against them ...... but because they cannot be emotionally, mentally strong enough to take pressure situations head on. I will gladly thank them a million times for giving birth to upright strong head of states ...... but if you ask me to agree that gender equality is possible ...... I won't lie, it doesn't and it cannot.