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Putting words in my mouth..

These liberal articles (all opinion btw) offer nothing new except rhetoric repeated over and over

Oh so what every other important news media reports about Pakistani establishment's duplicity about Taliban is rhetoric? And what was that "putting word in your mouth"? When did that happen?

Pray then, what in your esteemed opinion is the "truth"? Instead of broadly sweeping off a report which almost everyone believes to be true based on ground realities, put in more effort to counter it with valid proof or claims.
 
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Why are you referring to other news media? Media is mind controlling, propaganda, PR wing of individuals, groups, and states. It's hardly anything to look at.

As far as the report goes, again the problem with talking about "the truth" and "ground realities" comes up. How do you know "the truth" and ground realities"? Is what you're being told by the media and your government (and the US government) THE truth and THE ground reality? Again, this article offers nothing except rhetoric. Not much to look at. Next.
 
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Why are you referring to other news media? Media is mind controlling, propaganda, PR wing of individuals, groups, and states. It's hardly anything to look at.

As far as the report goes, again the problem with talking about "the truth" and "ground realities" comes up. How do you know "the truth" and ground realities"? Is what you're being told by the media and your government (and the US government) THE truth and THE ground reality? Again, this article offers nothing except rhetoric. Not much to look at. Next.

Nothing to prove? That drone flights originate from Pakistan with the tacit understanding of the Pakistani establishment and yet there is a political hue and cry everytime a talitubby is bumped off?
OR the instance of Pakistani ISI not knowing the whereabouts of talitubbies in Karachi - if so then its is really pathetic that an intelligence agency has no info about such elements! (In this case RAW/IB/Indian police are in a class of their own!)
Or the role of Pakistani establishment in helping and establishing Talitubbies regime in Afghanistan, and now turning their backs on the very same elements when threatened by the US/World?

Oh if its nothing but rhetoric, then prove otherwise or you are just lying and you have no knowledge of anything.
 
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I was not talking specifically the about article when referring to "ground reality" and "the truth". Most of what you say is true (although presented in a self-fulfilling way). Problem is that this article offers nothing except some old liberal rhetoric that is as old as Pakistan itself.
 
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Why are you referring to other news media? Media is mind controlling, propaganda, PR wing of individuals, groups, and states. It's hardly anything to look at.

As far as the report goes, again the problem with talking about "the truth" and "ground realities" comes up. How do you know "the truth" and ground realities"? Is what you're being told by the media and your government (and the US government) THE truth and THE ground reality? Again, this article offers nothing except rhetoric. Not much to look at. Next.

So your govt / PA says

1) Kargil fighters were mujahiddin
2) Ajmal Kasab is not pakistani, and fires the official that admits it
3) Baradar's arrest is a big lie
4) Afghan taliban has no support in pakistan
5) Predator raids have no official sanction
6) JUD is a charity

And we are supposed to NOT believe the media that invariably slaps your state position in the face and makes them change their position often, and often shamelessly :)

YOU have nothing to offer other than more cover up, denial and lies, you are running for cover and hence trying to discredit the media. we see through you.
 
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Again more childish indian rhetoric. Many of that GoP never said, and again, this article offers nothing except repeated rhetoric. I know you indians are big fanboys of Dawn, you can discuss this on BR.
 
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^^^

Suddenly after the london conference, the quetta shura exists, baradar is caught from karachi and a haqqani was killed y'day.

I have no proof that assets have been sold in international market.

But a common man like you is no different from me in terms of what proof we can obtain when it comes to all powerful state institutions, especially ones that have run the country for so long. Thats precisely why I urge you to ask questions to your own system and not just me out of a defensive attitude.

I also urge you to kill the other haqqanis, siraj and his father.


Where exactly in Quetta?
The Quetta Shura is not in Quetta, sipping tea in the main market for all to see...the basic assumption for Quetta Shura's existence was due to its close proximity of Taliban's strongest region via Chaman and the fact that Omar was teaching in a Madrassa in Quetta before the Taliban movement started, so he had roots in Quetta.
A logical assumption but not something we could trace and substantiate.

There are many smuggling routes near Chaman/Quetta and easy to move here and there.
More than 2 million Afghans came to Pakistan after the US attack in 2001 (on top of 3 million already present), that is a huge number and many Taliban could have come here amidst all the chaos, which i am sure they did.

Pakistan is a large, geographically diverse and very populous country; it is not entirely impossible for Taliban commanders to hide and keep a low profile for a long time.
However it does not mean that they can communicate with eachother without any risk, which is clearly what initiated these latest arrests of Taliban leaders.

I believe the current Pakistani leadership has been very much correct in threat perception and realizing long term goals and the state apparatus has been doing the right things and taking tough decisions.
However cross border movement cannot be controlled without solid steps in sealing the border and sharing of intelligence which needs Afghan cooperation as well, this cooperation has not reached any level worth talking about.
 
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So your govt / PA says

1) Kargil fighters were mujahiddin
2) Ajmal Kasab is not pakistani, and fires the official that admits it
3) Baradar's arrest is a big lie
4) Afghan taliban has no support in pakistan
5) Predator raids have no official sanction
6) JUD is a charity

1) Strategic military deception, nothing great to write about though.

2) No claim should have been made before confirmation from India regarding the details, GOP did not say that there is zero possibility, it initally said that it had received no evidence to prove so and would investigate it if information is shared.
Also Ajmal was missing from his city since some time so there was doubt as to who it actually was which the Indians captured.
Would India not tread carefully if GOP made similar claim, especially if there was such a serious implication?
Also when PM of India squarely blamed the security apparatus of Pakistan without any evidence, cooperation was an all time low!

3) PA never said that there was no capture and Rehman Malik was not denying the arrest either, instead he was not confirming the persons name and was questioning the joint field activity (not intelligence sharing)...here is what he said, the bold part is where he actually was showing difference of opinion from the article in NYT!

The New York Times and other US media cited US government officials as saying that US and Pakistani intelligence services arrested Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar in Karachi “several days ago”.

“We are verifying all those we have arrested. If there is any big target, I will show the nation,” Malik said.

“If the New York Times gives information, it is not a divine truth, it can be wrong. We have joint intelligence sharing and no joint investigation, nor joint raids,” Malik added.

“We are a sovereign state and hence will not allow anybody to come and do any operation. And we will not allow that. So this (report) is propaganda,” he added.


4) Afghan Taliban have support of tribals on both sides of the Pak Afghan border, there is no such thing as exclusive support from Pakistan and that is what Pakistan always maintains.

5) Predator raids are sensitive issue and perception is very negative about the raids, GOP is in a fix as to how this should be formalized.
Musharraf did not shoulder the responsibiliy and his heirs are now in a thick soup since they want politically correct stance which sadly is very difficult to achieve no matter what the sincerity level.

6) I saw JUD work in Kashmir earthquake relief effort so there is no doubt that they practically do charity work.
Just like Sinn Féin/IRA, JUD/LET links are questioned but the fact remains that JUD does charity work and has openly renounced LET tactics and dicossiated itself from LET.
LET is part of the Punjabi Taliban and its members actively engaged PA in FATA.
 
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^^^^^ Plausible deniability?

More Taliban arrests hint at policy shift in Pakistan

KABUL, Afghanistan — Pakistan's latest arrests of senior Afghan Taliban figures and al Qaida operatives have raised the prospect that Islamabad has begun a major strategic shift away from backing its favorite Afghan militants. Analysts cautioned, however that Pakistan's aim may be to apply just enough pressure to bring the Taliban to the negotiating table on terms acceptable to Islamabad .

A combination of the new Pakistani mores and the U.S. military offensive in Afghanistan's Taliban heartland might serve to convince some militants that negotiations hold more promise for them than continued warfare does.

Mullah Abdul Salam and Mullah Mir Mohammad, respectively the Taliban "shadow governors" of the northern Afghan provinces of Kunduz and Baghlan, were captured in Quetta, Pakistan , the official governor of Kunduz province, Mohammad Omar , told McClatchy Thursday.

The Taliban run a shadow, or parallel, government in 33 of Afghanistan's 34 provinces, according to a NATO assessment.

In addition, as many as nine militants linked to al Qaida were arrested in overnight raids in Karachi with the help of U.S. intelligence, according to a senior U.S. official who insisted on anonymity because the matter is classified. One was identified in published reports as Ameer Muawiya, who was said to be in charge of foreign al Qaida militants operating in Pakistan's tribal area near Afghanistan and was an associate of Osama bin Laden .

Officially, Pakistan broke with the Taliban after the 9/11 attacks, but in fact it hosted the movement's leadership on Pakistani soil, allowed the leaders' families to live openly in Pakistani cities and has permitted arms, money and personnel to flow back and forth across its long border with Afghanistan .

The revelation that Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, the deputy leader of the Taliban , was arrested in Karachi last week and the news Thursday that two other Taliban commanders were seized in Pakistan indicated that a new policy could be crystallizing in Islamabad .

"I think a shift is taking place inside the military," said Khalid Aziz , head of the Regional Institute of Policy Research and Training , an independent policy organization based in the northwestern city of Peshawar . "At the end of it, if the old model had continued into a post-U.S. withdrawal situation, and Pakistan had continued supporting the 'good' Taliban , it would almost certainly end up as a civil war in Afghanistan ."

Renewed civil war in Afghanistan likely would spill over into Pakistan , especially its tribal area and North West Frontier Province , which is populated by Pashtuns, who are also the biggest ethnic group in Afghanistan .

Earlier this month, Gen. Ashfaq Kayani , Pakistan's army chief said in a speech that he'd brushed aside the Pakistani old doctrine of "strategic depth," which meant controlling Afghanistan to stop the influence of arch-rival India there. "If Afghanistan is peaceful, stable, and friendly, we have our strategic depth because our western border is secure," Kayani declared.

Rather than a new approach to Afghanistan , some think that Pakistan is pursuing its old policy by a new means — that by weakening the Taliban , Islamabad could deliver some Taliban leaders to the negotiating table to cut a deal that would still give them some measure of power and Pakistan a strong say in Afghanistan's future.

Such a strategy, however, would risk alienating hardcore Taliban elements who remained in Pakistan — unless the Pakistanis were able to find and kill or capture them.

"I think it's a bit early to call it a strategic shift, but clearly the political calculations in Pakistan are changing," said Shuja Nawaz , an expert on Pakistani military at the Atlantic Council , an independent research organization in Washington . "The idea being they can play a role in getting the U.S. to communicate (with the Taliban )."

Backing the Taliban also has come at a tremendous domestic cost, as the movement spawned a copycat group in Pakistan that's even more violent and has squarely targeted the government. More civilians were killed in terrorist violence in Pakistan last year than in Afghanistan .

According to Kunduz governor Omar, the "shadow governors" were arrested in the western Pakistani city of Quetta within the last two weeks. The so-called Quetta shura, or Taliban leadership council, is said to be based there. Some reports said that one of those shadow governors, Salam, was nabbed in the Pakistani city of Faisalabad, in the dominant Punjab province, a place with no obvious Taliban links.

"This (the arrests) is because of the pressure of the world community on Pakistan . And the explosions happening inside Pakistan , the crisis in Pakistan ," Omar told McClatchy .

Nawaz pointed out that puncturing the Taliban strengthened the relative position of the other main insurgent group operating in Afghanistan , the Haqqani network, which is considered even closer to Pakistan .

The flurry of sudden arrests raised the awkward issue of why Pakistan didn't act earlier.

"They (Pakistani intelligence) seem to have found their old address book," quipped one senior U.S. official in the region, who couldn't be named because of the sensitivity of the issue.


Separately, four more soldiers from the U.S.-led International Security Assistance Force were killed in the week-old massive offensive in the southern Afghanistan's Helmand province. Three of the four died from roadside bombs, bringing total ISAF fatalities to eight.
 
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Where exactly in Quetta?
The Quetta Shura is not in Quetta, sipping tea in the main market for all to see...the basic assumption for Quetta Shura's existence was due to its close proximity of Taliban's strongest region via Chaman and the fact that Omar was teaching in a Madrassa in Quetta before the Taliban movement started, so he had roots in Quetta.
A logical assumption but not something we could trace and substantiate.

There are many smuggling routes near Chaman/Quetta and easy to move here and there.
More than 2 million Afghans came to Pakistan after the US attack in 2001 (on top of 3 million already present), that is a huge number and many Taliban could have come here amidst all the chaos, which i am sure they did.

Pakistan is a large, geographically diverse and very populous country; it is not entirely impossible for Taliban commanders to hide and keep a low profile for a long time.
However it does not mean that they can communicate with eachother without any risk, which is clearly what initiated these latest arrests of Taliban leaders.

I believe the current Pakistani leadership has been very much correct in threat perception and realizing long term goals and the state apparatus has been doing the right things and taking tough decisions.
However cross border movement cannot be controlled without solid steps in sealing the border and sharing of intelligence which needs Afghan cooperation as well, this cooperation has not reached any level worth talking about.

Thanks for your post. While its your opinion that the govt has correctly understood the threat and hence they are operating in a certain manner, i agree as far as the civilian govt is concerned.

I do not agree as far as the security establishment goes, i think there are still hurdles to cross. Just my opinion.
 
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So your govt / PA says

1) Kargil fighters were mujahiddin
2) Ajmal Kasab is not pakistani, and fires the official that admits it
3) Baradar's arrest is a big lie
4) Afghan taliban has no support in pakistan
5) Predator raids have no official sanction
6) JUD is a charity
QUOTE]

1) Strategic military deception, nothing great to write about though.

2) No claim should have been made before confirmation from India regarding the details, GOP did not say that there is zero possibility, it initally said that it had received no evidence to prove so and would investigate it if information is shared.
Also Ajmal was missing from his city since some time so there was doubt as to who it actually was which the Indians captured.
Would India not tread carefully if GOP made similar claim, especially if there was such a serious implication?
Also when PM of India squarely blamed the security apparatus of Pakistan without any evidence, cooperation was an all time low!

3) PA never said that there was no capture and Rehman Malik was not denying the arrest either, instead he was not confirming the persons name and was questioning the joint field activity (not intelligence sharing)...here is what he said, the bold part is where he actually was showing difference of opinion from the article in NYT!

The New York Times and other US media cited US government officials as saying that US and Pakistani intelligence services arrested Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar in Karachi “several days ago”.

“We are verifying all those we have arrested. If there is any big target, I will show the nation,” Malik said.

“If the New York Times gives information, it is not a divine truth, it can be wrong. We have joint intelligence sharing and no joint investigation, nor joint raids,” Malik added.

“We are a sovereign state and hence will not allow anybody to come and do any operation. And we will not allow that. So this (report) is propaganda,” he added.


4) Afghan Taliban have support of tribals on both sides of the Pak Afghan border, there is no such thing as exclusive support from Pakistan and that is what Pakistan always maintains.

5) Predator raids are sensitive issue and perception is very negative about the raids, GOP is in a fix as to how this should be formalized.
Musharraf did not shoulder the responsibiliy and his heirs are now in a thick soup since they want politically correct stance which sadly is very difficult to achieve no matter what the sincerity level.

6) I saw JUD work in Kashmir earthquake relief effort so there is no doubt that they practically do charity work.
Just like Sinn Féin/IRA, JUD/LET links are questioned but the fact remains that JUD does charity work and has openly renounced LET tactics and dicossiated itself from LET.
LET is part of the Punjabi Taliban and its members actively engaged PA in FATA.

1) Still a lie, to date not published the list of pak casualties
2) Zardari on BBC world said - weeks after the attacks- that he does not believe ajmal is pakistani
3) Fair enough
4) And pakistan only provided moral and political support to kashmiri militants too
5) The so called sensitive issue is being handled in a way that only provides more recruits to the jihadis, unless your defence is the GOP & PA are bumbling idiots, i see an attempt to keep people in denial
6) JUD indeed did charity as a front. that defence i expect an LET supporter to offer, not the GOP.
 
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