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SD-10 vs AIM-120 (Latest versions)

^^ You are right. If you read this (VERY interesting) thread based on information from servicemen and highly reliable sources:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/82390-tracking-jf-17-information-post-zuhai-air-show.html

you will see that the JF-17 is developing very rapidly. The PAF has a very substantial presence of engineers ("a small city") in China to work on the SD-10B with the Chinese. Apparently Pakistan wants to standardize on this BVR AAM.

Very impressed with these developments. Especially the upcoming AESA, SD-10B, multi-rack AAM (simple, but important) and IRST enhancements.
 
@Silent Hawk,

I think the above reply is to suffice your questions regarding the integration of Active radar missile into a fighter as we discussed in 'Best BVR capable missile in South Asia Thread'

-thanks Chogy

Regards,
 
^^ You are right. If you read this (VERY interesting) thread based on information from servicemen and highly reliable sources:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/82390-tracking-jf-17-information-post-zuhai-air-show.html

you will see that the JF-17 is developing very rapidly. The PAF has a very substantial presence of engineers ("a small city") in China to work on the SD-10B with the Chinese. Apparently Pakistan wants to standardize on this BVR AAM.

Very impressed with these developments. Especially the upcoming AESA, SD-10B, multi-rack AAM (simple, but important) and IRST enhancements.

It is for sure that PAF will add SD-10 into JFT, but it will take sufficient time, even if you look for a new radar for JFT, will take longer time..
Rgds,
 
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SD 10
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AIM 120
 
It is for sure that PAF will add SD-10 into JFT, but it will take sufficient time, even if you look for a new radar for JFT, will take longer time..
Rgds,

Current JF-17 radar is capable of being used with SD-10A.
 
You guys were looking for french radars, thats why I have mentioned that.

Please see thread I have cited above. JF-17 is capable of using SD-10A, and the reason the PAF has now opted for Chinese radars for all aircraft is because a) we will get AESA tech and b) we will be able to integrate our Ra'ad ALCM, PGMs and SD-10B without sharing any information with a third-party supplier.
 
France
Matra R550 Magic — short-range, IR guided
Matra Magic II — IR guided missile.
Matra R530 — medium-range, IR or radar guided
Magic Super 530F/Super 530D — medium-range, radar-guided
MBDA MICA — medium-range, IR or radar guided
[edit] Germany
Ruhrstahl X-4 — World War II design, first practical anti-aircraft missile, MCLOS, never saw service
Henschel Hs 298 — World War II design, MCLOS, never saw service
MBDA Meteor
IRIS-T
[edit] European
MBDA Meteor — medium range, active radar homing; design to replace AMRAAM
IRIS-T — short range infrared homing; replacement for AIM-9 Sidewinder
[edit] India
Astra missile BVRAAM
Novator K-100
[edit] Iran
Fatter — copy of U.S. AIM-9 Sidewinder [6]
Sedjil — copy of U.S. MIM-23 Hawk converted to be carried by aircraft [7]
[edit] Iraq
Al Humurrabi — Long range, semi active radar
[edit] Israel
Rafael Shafrir — first Israeli domestic AAM
Rafael Shafrir 2 — improved Shafrir missile
Rafael Python 3 — medium range IR-homing missile with all aspect capability [4]
Rafael Python 4 — medium range IR-homing missile with HMS-guidance capability [5]
Rafael Python 5 — improved Python 4 with electro-optical imaging seeker [6]
Rafael Derby — Also known as the Alto, this is a medium-range, BVR active radar-homing missile [7]
[edit] Italy
Alenia Aspide — Italian manufactured version of the AIM-7 Sparrow, based on the AIM-7E.
[edit] Japan
AAM-3 — short-range Type 90 air-to-air missile
AAM-4 — middle-range Type 99 air-to-air missile
AAM-5 — short-range Type 04 air-to-air missile
[edit] People's Republic of China
PL-1 — PRC version of the Soviet Kaliningrad K-5 (AA-1 Alkali), retired.
PL-2 — PRC version of the Soviet Vympel K-13 (AA-2 Atoll), which was based on AIM-9B Sidewinder. [8] Retired & replaced by PL-5 in PLAAF service.
PL-3 — updated version of the PL-2, did not enter service.
PL-5 — updated version of the PL-2, known versions include: [9]
PL-5A — semi-active radar-homing AAM intended to replace the PL-2, did not enter service. Resembles AIM-9G in appearance.
PL-5B — IR version, entered service in 1990s to replace the PL-2 SRAAM. Limited off-boresight
PL-5C — Improved version comparable to AIM-9H or AIM-9L in performance
PL-5E — All-aspect attack version, resembles AIM-9P in appearance.
PL-7 — PRC version of the IR-homing French R550 Magic AAM, did not enter service. [10]
PL-8 — PRC version of the Israeli Rafael Python 3 [11]
PL-9 — short range IR guided missile, marketed for export. One known improved version (PL-9C). [12]
PL-10 — semi-active radar-homing medium-range missile based on the HQ-61 SAM, [13] often confused with PL-11. Did not enter service.
PL-11 — medium-range air-to-air missile (MRAAM), based on the HQ-61C & Italian Aspide (AIM-7) technology. Limited service with J-8-B/D/H fighters. Known versions include: [14]
PL-11 — MRAAM with semi-active radar homing, based on the HQ-61C SAM and Aspide seeker technology, exported as FD-60 [15]
PL-11A — Improved PL-11 with increased range, warhead, and more effective seeker. The new seeker only requires fire-control radar guidance during the terminal stage, providing a basic LOAL (lock-on after launch) capability.
PL-11B — Also known as PL-11 AMR, improved PL-11 with AMR-1 active radar-homing seeker.
LY-60 — PL-11 adopted for navy ships for air-defense, sold to Pakistan but does not appear to be in service with the Chinese Navy. [16]
PL-12 (SD-10) — medium-range active radar missile [17]
TY-90 — light IR-homing air-to-air missile designed for helicopters [18]
[edit] Russia/Soviet
Kaliningrad K-5 (NATO reporting name AA-1 'Alkali') — beam-riding
Vympel K-13 (NATO reporting name AA-2 'Atoll') — short-range IR or SARH
Kaliningrad K-8 (NATO reporting name AA-3 'Anab') — IR or SARH
Raduga K-9 (NATO reporting name AA-4 'Awl') — IR or SARH
Bisnovat R-4 (NATO reporting name AA-5 'Ash') — IR or SARH
Bisnovat R-40 (NATO reporting name AA-6 'Acrid') — long-range IR or SARH
Vympel R-23 (NATO reporting name AA-7 'Apex') — medium-range SARAH or IR
Molniya R-60 (NATO reporting name AA-8 'Aphid') — short-range IR
Vympel R-33 (NATO reporting name AA-9 'Amos') — long range active radar
Vympel R-27 (NATO reporting name AA-10 'Alamo') — medium-range SARH or IR
Vympel R-73 (NATO reporting name AA-11 'Archer') — short-range IR
Vympel R-77 (NATO reporting name AA-12 'Adder') — medium-range active radar
Vympel R-37 (NATO reporting name AA-X-13 'Arrow') — long-range SARH or active radar
Novator KS-172 AAM-L — extreme long range, inertial navigation with active radar for terminal homing
[edit] South Africa
A-Darter — Short range IR (With Brazil)
V3 Kukri — Short range IR
R-Darter — Beyond visual range (BVR) radar-guided missile
[edit] Taiwan
Sky Sword I (TC-1) — air-to-air
Sky Sword II (TC-2) — air-to-air
[edit] United Kingdom
Fireflash — short range beam-riding
Firestreak — short range IR
Red Top — short range IR
Skyflash — medium-range radar-guided missile based on the AIM-7E2, said to have quick warm-up times of 1 to 2 seconds.
AIM-132 ASRAAM — short range IR
MBDA Meteor — long range radar guided missile due to enter service in 2013.
[edit] United States
AIM-4 Falcon — radar (later IR) guided
AIM-7 Sparrow — medium range semi-active radar
AIM-9 Sidewinder — short range IR Brazil
Mectron MAA-1 Piranha — Short range IR
MAA-1B IR guided missile.
A-Darter — Short range IR (With South Africa)
AIM-54 Phoenix — long range, semi-active and active radar
AIM-120 AMRAAM — medium range, active radar; replaces AIM-7 Sparrow List of missiles by country
 
It is not difficult at all to patch a heat-seeking missile into an airframe. The British added the AIM-9L to their Harriers in a matter of a couple of weeks prior to the Falklands combat. The missile is set to boresight, the audio patched into the headset, and when the distinct tone is heard, the missile can be launched. Once away, nothing else need be done.

It is very, very much more difficult to add a radar-guided missile into an airframe not designed for it. The entire system is highly integrated. The radar must be capable of providing the correct guidance signals to the missile, all at very high speed, and with accuracy. It CAN be done, such as the SD-10 to the JF-17, but it is going to take a bit of time, access to source codes and very specific technical data, and some talented engineers. If China provides engineers to help, it'd be done in 1/10th of the time compared to a solo effort. I'm assuming that if China sells the missile in quantity to Pakistan, part of that sale would be technical assistance to do just that.
The differences between infrared (passive) and radar (active) detection schemes should NEVER EVER be underestimated.

In a passive detection scheme, the target has control over its character emissions. The target is in dominance of the medium and if we are talking about infrared then the medium is infrared signals. The receiver is absolutely dependent upon that target for information.

For example...In an infrared array, there would be a group of pixels that would be 'activated' upon detection of IR signals. In the center of this group there would be a smaller group of pixels that will record the highest strength of an IR source. If the data processing -- in real time -- pick up a decrease of 'activated' pixels and a decrease in IR intensity, how is the missile to know that the aircraft is moving away from it, or if the engine(s) has a decreased output of IR emissions? Conversely...If the data processing pick up an increase of 'activated' pixels and a corresponding increase in IR intensity in the center of said 'activated' pixels, how is the missile to know that it is closing in on the victim aircraft or that the aircraft had just increase its engine(s) into the afterburner region to escape? Which is better for the decision making process, the uncertainty or the assured? But if we totally dependent upon the target to provide information about itself, do we need to have a complex decision making process, especially if the information is as simple as infrared intensity? This is why infrared missiles are simpler to design, manufactured, or integrate from an external supplier into a currently deployed aircraft.

Contrast this with the radar detection scheme, which is an active method. If we have 100 pulses in a pulse train and if there are 80 returns, we can process the time gaps between EACH echo pulse in relation to its previous and successive pulses to know with near absolute certainty that the aircraft is moving away from us or that we are closing upon it. Below an arbitrarily set threshold of returned pulses -- or echoes -- we would ignore everything but that is another data processing issue. If the time gaps increases between each echo we can say that the aircraft is moving away from us. If the time gaps compresses, we can say that the aircraft is closing upon us, or that the missile is closing in, depends on one's perspective. Even 'stealth' aircrafts are not exempt from this law of physics. The advantage that 'stealth' aircrafts has is that it can influence the behaviors of those echoes but that is another discussion altogether.

Compound this with the fact that in a single pulse train, the radar detection scheme provide us with three axes of target information in the case of an airborne target:

x-y-z_coords.gif


Each axis out of 80 echoes in a 100-pulses pulse train will give us rate of changes of that target -- in real time. Infrared simply cannot match as far as data stream goes. Which lead us up to the next difficulty...Who is better to give young Helio Castroneves guidance, ten high school level driving instructors or a single F1 champion? There is a certain point where we cannot 'dumb down' the AMRAAM any further where the radar information required by the AMRAAM is insufficient for this missile to operate. The source of that guidance must contain 3-axes target velocity, acceleration, and heading of their changes. If the data processing hardware is not sophisticated enough to process 80 echoes out of 100 pulses to give to this sophisticated missile, then the integration of an external source will fail and that failure will show just on paper.

Access to the source codes that governs the entire weapon system will help only to a certain level of 'dumbing' down the AMRAAM where one might as well design and build one's own missile to match one's own radar technology. It would be cheaper and one would be in total possession of this weapon system. Why would you want to pay full price for an AMRAAM when you are able to exploit merely %50 of its capabilities because your current radar system cannot give the AMRAAM what it demand? This is why infrared missiles are best against stationary targets, or if the target's 3-axes rate of changes can be out accelerated by the missile's own velocity, which would make an IR-only missile best for within visual range fights.
 
Uh gambit..would the above then imply that the Russian messed up with their dual heats on their T versions of the Alamo and R-77?
Or the Pk wasnt much at all to look at if you fired that at a fighter...(assuming they expected to engage B-52's with em)
 
The differences between infrared (passive) and radar (active) detection schemes should NEVER EVER be underestimated.

In a passive detection scheme, the target has control over its character emissions. The target is in dominance of the medium and if we are talking about infrared then the medium is infrared signals. The receiver is absolutely dependent upon that target for information.

........................

One aspect of integration that is often overlooked is mid course guidance, if mid-course update is denied the missile will likely end up several miles off target. Remains to be seen if SD-10's data link to the launching or guiding aircraft is robust and secure enough to operate in dense hostile electronic environment.

The effectiveness of the AIM-120 is enhanced by two way data link and GPS-enhanced IMU, not sure if the SD-10's have similar capabilities.
 
^^ You are right. If you read this (VERY interesting) thread based on information from servicemen and highly reliable sources:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/82390-tracking-jf-17-information-post-zuhai-air-show.html

you will see that the JF-17 is developing very rapidly. The PAF has a very substantial presence of engineers ("a small city") in China to work on the SD-10B with the Chinese. Apparently Pakistan wants to standardize on this BVR AAM.

Very impressed with these developments. Especially the upcoming AESA, SD-10B, multi-rack AAM (simple, but important) and IRST enhancements.

In further addition to your point, our engineers are working closely with our Chinese friends on the FC20, ZDK 03, radars, avionics and other weapon systems. From what i have been told, the FC20 is going to be a beast and comparable if not superior to most of the 4.5 Generation Aircrafts. Never in Pakistan's history have we ever cooperated at this level with our Chinese friends. China's Defence Industry is growing at an exponential rate, i see a very bright future for Pakistan's Armed Forces.
 
Uh gambit..would the above then imply that the Russian messed up with their dual heats on their T versions of the Alamo and R-77?
Or the Pk wasnt much at all to look at if you fired that at a fighter...(assuming they expected to engage B-52's with em)
If you are referring to the modularity of those missiles then no, I do not think it is a mistake in designing such. You can have the most sophisticated flight controls coupled with the most basic sensor-guidance package. But not the other way around. The target dependent passive sensor guidance system such as infrared is the most basic type. It is the first 'fire-and-forget' missile. Do not equate 'fire-and-forget' with assured success. For the infrared guided missile, once the missile is on its way, there is nothing the parent aircraft can do. The 'fire-and-forget' simply mean you can ignore the missile, hope it is successful, and you move on to the next task. Radar guidance, semi-active and active, are the next necessary and logical evolution because we want increased odds of success via control of a medium -- EM signals. So by designing a missile to have its sensor-guidance package easily change out, you increase flexibility for sales and adaptability across a wider range of aircrafts without designing a new missile.
 
Just the graphics of the x and y axis did it for me , :smitten: all the other stuff was bonus :pop:
 
The questions are....

Would SD-10 can be used with Griffo radars?

If YES, then
Can SD-10 also be used in with F-7PG and Mirage ROSE?
 
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