SD-10 vs AIM-120 (Latest versions)

[MZUBAIR]

What exactly makes the AIM better then SD-10 ??

From many areas\aspects it shows that AIM is batter then SD-10.

Is it better hit % or just over all performance and success ration

Yes AIM hit performance is batter then SD-10 with its ACTIVE radar and built in inertial navigation system.
AIM is light in weight, agile and have super maneveuers.

AIM really has not been tested against moderen fighters mostly against out dated planes with generational gap of 15 years on most kills no ???

Its tested ....thats y its also used in F22 Raptor

But SD-10 is china's recent work integrating newer technologies and tracking so even if these function 89% of the AIM capacity

We cant meaure in %'s but yes SD-10 is closed ot AIM. But still lack in many aspects

Its pretty close that is still almost a certain kill rate unless pilot makes emergency actions to prevent being dead duck

AIM on paper has been touted as the most successful missiles with solid success ratios but technology is not property of American companies China can and has also build its own missile ...

But for Pakistan if we had CLASSIFIED distance on SD-10 Missiles that is a heck big advantage in battle scenarios vs AIM missiles that ppl know what their range is

SD-10 just gives us that unpredictability and just a big boost in our defences -

U shld be happy that PAF have both the missiles

 

[Chogy]

To the gentleman who asked about tail-chase ranges... my experience with the AIM-120 is not recent, but even if I knew exact numbers, I wouldn't discuss them openly.

I can say that in general, tail-chase is the worst situation a missile must overcome, especially if the target is fast. And the range varies wildly with the target altitude. All A-A missile envelopes expand dramatically as the altitude increases. It all deals with air-drag, of course.

A good man-machine interface generates a visible solution on the radar or HUD by continually analyzing everything... target speed, aspect, altitude, your own speed, etc. You can see the envelope shrink or expand in real time, and it is displayed as tick marks next to the radar range scale. Pretty high-tech stuff.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, we have few dozen of first choice AIM-120 out of the deal of 500.
And more coming in few months.

I think 500 AIM-120 is the huge number's of BVR.
And the both AIM-120 (500) and SD-10 (few 100's) are enough to defend the country.
Dont u agree with me??

Hi,

I absolutely agree with you----the combination of aim 120 and sd 10 is extremely potent.

Where the sd 10 be seeing its first true deployment---aim 120 has been doing that for decades----so age before beauty---. When we look at american weapons systems---the first thing that comes to mind is quality---reliability---and trust that it will do the job right.

Americans are their worst critics and they are always on the go to mend things---not saying that the chinese are not taking a similiar path---but the aim 120 has gone through many a life cycles of development and changes---and for that reason it gets the highest ratings.

About the sd 10---we should stop making these big claims about the missile---has anybody ever heard the phrase----PROMISE LESS DELIVER MORE---. Over here people are promising more and when it comes to delivery---everyone start looking the other way.

At present---the chinese systems are delivering .60 to .70 to what an american system delivers---will they get better in time----yes they will---do we buy the chinese weapons out of choice---absolutely not---we buy them because they come without the fear of sanctions---that is all there is to it.

Otherwise we would be lookijng to the west all the time----that has always been our first priority.

I would say---AIM 120---zindabad----SD 10 paindabad---

 

[krash]

Your post was edited to remove an unnecessarily offensive comment directed at a forum member.

Please learn to behave yourself if you would like to continue interacting here.

i do apologise for crossing the line but his earlier comment was itself a bit too harsh and that provoked my response........ apologize again sir gambit and everyone else but please try to cut some slack to all us noobs who are here only to learn from you and if you thrash us we are most likely never to gain anything from you.

ps: if it means anything i did not intend that phrase in any offensive manner what so ever. Just used it as a general term and became aware of its inappropriateness after you pointed it out. My conotation was more of the sense of "angry shouting". But i do admit my mistake.

sincerely sorry

 

[sathya]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*China's SD-10 claimed to be a dual-mode AAM
China's SD-10 medium-range air-to-air missile (AAM), as exhibited at Airshow China earlier in November, may be a considerably more capable weapon than was hitherto...
26-Nov-2010

 

[silent hawk]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*China's SD-10 claimed to be a dual-mode AAM
China's SD-10 medium-range air-to-air missile (AAM), as exhibited at Airshow China earlier in November, may be a considerably more capable weapon than was hitherto...
26-Nov-2010

The SD-10 is reported to have not two but four modes.

The PL-12 has four engagement modes. To take the greatest advantage of its maximum range it will use a mix of command guidance (via a datalink) plus its own inertial guidance before entering the active radar terminal guidance phase. The missile can also be launched to a pre-selected point, using its strap-down inertial system, before switching on its own seeker for a terminal search. Over short ranges the missile can be launched in a 'fire-and-forget' mode using its own active seeker from the outset. Finally, the PL-12 has a 'home-on-jam' mode that allows it to passively track and engage an emitting target, without ever using its own active radar or a radar from the launch aircraft

 

[unicorn]

AIM-120 cutaway diagram

AIM-120A antenna assembly

AIM-120A ECU module, EU cardcage, processor board and IMU

 

[unicorn]

AMRAAN Specifications

Length: 5.56 m (12 ft)
Wingspan: 53.3 cm (21 in)
AIM-120C: 44.7 cm (17.6 in)
Finspan 63.5 cm (25 in)
AIM-120C: 44.7 cm (17.6 in)
Diameter: 17.8 cm (7 in)
Weight: 157 kg (345 lb)
Speed Mach: 4
Range: 50-70 km (30-45 miles)
Propulsion: Hercules/Aerojet solid-fueled rocket
Warhead: 23 kg (50 lb) WDU-33/B blast-fragmentation
AIM-120C-5: WDU-41/B blast-fragmentation

Guidance Section, Weapons Guidance Unit
The Weapons Guidance Unit (WGU) consists of the radome, seeker, servo, transmitter-receiver, electronics unit, Inertial Reference Unit, Target Detection Device (TDD), the harnesses, and frame structure. All units except the TDD are contained within a sealed structure composed of the pyroceramic radome, titanium skin sections, and aluminum aft bulkhead. The TDD, RF and video processor, and the antennas are attached to the aft skin section as a complete testable assembly. Electronics group functions include radar signal processing, seeker servo control, and all of the computations performed in the central data processor. The WGU-16B is used on AIM-120A missiles, the WGU-41/B is used on AIM-120B missiles, and the WGU-44/B is used on AIM-120C missiles. Guidance sections on AIM-120B and AIM-120C missiles contain Electronic Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory which allow reprogramming of the missile software. Missile software versions are denoted by Tape and Revision Numbers, e.g., Tape 4 Revision 16.

Armament Section, Weapons Detonation Unit.
The Weapons Detonation Unit (WDU)-33/B forms an integral part of the tactical missile airframe and includes the warhead, the FZU-49/B (modified Mk 3 Mod 5) safe-arm fuze device, and the Mk 44 Mod 1 booster. The armament section also includes the forward missile hook and hanger. The WDU-33/ B warhead meets the Insensitive Munitions (IM) program requirements.

Propulsion Section, Weapons Propulsion Unit
The Weapons Propulsion Unit (WPU)-6/B consists of an airframe, integral rocket motor, a blast tube and exit cone, and an Arm/Fire Device (AFD) with a visible safe-arm indicator. The high performance rocket motor utilizes a reduced smoke, hydroxyl terminated, polybutadiene propellant in a boost sustain configuration, an asbestos-free insulated case (an integral part of the airframe), and an integral aft closure, blast tube, and nozzle assembly with a removable exit cone to facilitate control section installation/removal. Wings are attached in wing sockets at the forward end of the propulsion section. Provisions are included within this section for mounting the filter rectifier assembly.

Control Section, Weapons Control Unit.
The Weapons Control Unit (WCU)-11/B consists of four independently controlled electro-mechanical servo actuators, four lithium-aluminum batteries connected in parallel, and a steel fuselage section that is bolted to the propulsion section aft skirt. Each actuator consists of a brushless DC motor ballscrew, an infinite resolution potentiometer directly coupled to the output shaft, and pulse width modulated control electronics. The output shaft is engaged directly to a squib actuated lock so that it does not interfere with the fin (control surface) installation and removal. (5) Wiring Harness, Harness Cover, and Thermally Initiated Venting System. The wiring harness cover extends from the aft end of the guidance section to the forward end of the control section. Its primary purpose is to provide protection for the wiring harness. The main wiring harness electrically connects the umbilical connector, guidance section, and control section. The wiring harness cover also houses the TIVS. The TIVS is designed to vent rocket motor pressure in the event the missile is exposed to a fuel fire. The TIVS consists of an external thermal cord which, when ignited, triggers an Out-Of-Line Device (OOLD) that ignites a Linear Shape Charge that weakens the rocket motor, allowing the rocket motor to vent without exploding. The OOLD prevents the shaped charge from detonating should the booster in the OOLD inadvertently detonate due to causes such as high impact. The unit has an additional safety feature that causes it to “reset” within nine to thirteen units of gravity, such as the acceleration experienced during missile launch. This feature prevents the system from functioning during missile free flight so that the associated aerodynamic pressures do not inadvertently enable the TIVS and thereby degrade missile performance. An indicator is on the wiring harness cover showing the condition of the TIVS, either “ENABLE” or “DISABLE”. Only TIVS equipped missiles are deployed aboard Aircraft Carriers (CV/CVN). The WPU-6/B Propulsion Section (with TIVS) meets the fast cook-off and sympathetic detonation requirements of the IM program and the policy delineated in OPNAV Instruction (OPNAVINST) 8010.13B. The other requirements (bullet impact, fragment impact, and slow cook-off) have not been met with the current configuration. However, the WPU-6/B has been granted the appropriate waivers for shipboard use.

Launchers
The AMRAAM system includes three new Missile Rail Launchers (MRLs): the LAU-127A/A, in conjunction with the LAU-115, used on the F/A-18C/D aircraft; the LAU-128A/A, and the LAU-129A/A, used on the F-15 and F-16 aircraft, respectively. Additional interface cables are not required between the aircraft and the launcher. The MRL can be installed and operated at all current AIM-9 Sidewinder positions on all candidate aircraft, except F/A-18C/D wing tip stations; and is also capable of launching AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles. The MRL supplements the Sidewinder launchers (except F/A-18C/D wing tip) on AMRAAM capable aircraft.

 

[SEAL]

Sir, we have few dozen of first choice AIM-120 out of the deal of 500.
And more coming in few months.

I think 500 AIM-120 is the huge number's of BVR.
And the both AIM-120 (500) and SD-10 (few 100's) are enough to defend the country.
Dont u agree with me??

Bud we can't use Aim-120 on JF-17s Aim-120z are just for the F-16s.
We are gonna induct 150-250 JF-17s so we need more than 500 SD-10s.

 

[sathya]

Jane's Defence Weekly


China's SD-10 claimed to be a dual-mode AAM.

Robert Hewson Jane's Air-Launched Weapons Editor - Zhuhai, China



China's SD-10 medium-range air-to-air missile (AAM), as exhibited at Airshow China earlier in November, may be a considerably more capable weapon than was hitherto believed, Jane's understands.

Officials from the SD-10's manufacturer, the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center (LOEC), said the missile was designed from the beginning to function with a dual-mode seeker operating in distinct active and passive radar homing modes. If so, the SD-10 is the first AAM to enter service with this acknowledged capability.

There have been suggestions that the latest AIM-120D Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) developed by Raytheon for the US Air Force and Navy has a similar dual-mode seeker capability. The full capabilities of the AIM-120D remain classified, but its development has been problematic and it has yet to enter operational service.

The SD-10 - the current production version is the refined SD-10A - has been cleared for service on the Chengdu J-10 and late-model versions of the Shenyang J-8 combat aircraft. By the end of this year the missile is expected to be operational with the PAC JF-17s of the Pakistan Air Force.

In lengthy discussions with LOEC at the 16-21 November Airshow China exhibition, the operating modes of the SD-10A were set out to Jane's in detail. The missile has an active terminal homing capability, which has been openly described since the first details of the SD-10 were made public in the middle of the last decade.

What has remained unspoken until now is the missile's claimed ability to home in on radar or electronic warfare emissions from the target aircraft, without support from the launch aircraft or use of the missile's own active seeker modes.

A LOEC official told Jane's that the passive mode was not intended to be the missile's primary targeting mode and cited the risks to friendly aircraft of relying on passive guidance alone. It is not clear if the SD-10A's seeker can continually alternate between active and passive modes in flight or if it makes a less sophisticated 'one time' switch.

In the past, Russian sources have given Jane's a detailed account of the assistance supplied by Russian design bureaus in the development of the SD-10. A LOEC official hinted that this co-operation is continuing when he noted: "We [LOEC] have the capability to make the seeker ourselves, but obviously we want it to be the best it possibly can." He confirmed that the missile still relied on some unidentified components that were sourced outside China.

Within Russia the AGAT Design Bureau has developed several dual-mode seeker designs which it only began discussing in public in 2009. Senior AGAT officials have remained vague when asked by Jane's about who paid for these development programmes, noting only that there is no Russian application and no Russian state support for them.

During the 1990s China also gained access to the 9B-1032 passive seeker developed by Avtomatika for the Vympel R-27P (AA-10 'Alamo') AAM. A melding of these two design inputs might explain how China arrived at its SD-10 seeker design. According to a LOEC official, the dual-mode capability was designed into the SD-10 from its inception.

An SD-10A missile (underwing) is part of the weapons suite of a Pakistan Air Force JF-17 at November's Airshow China.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

THE GAME CHANGER WOULD BE IF WE CAN USE THE SD-10 with our mirages

Imagine OUR AIRFORCE if we can use these - BVR on our 200 Mirages I mean it just MAKES the mirages even 30-40% more lethal -

Is there a possibility we can integrate the SD-10 to be used also on our existing fleet ?

I know these will work with out JF17 thunder platform and J10 up and coming planes -

Even the stealthiest of planes becomes visible on radar when it fires its missile and if 20-30 mirages are flying in air if they get a sniff of the location of plane then its game over for stealth plane

Obviously there is a transition phase between 2010-2015 when we will get max JF17 thunders flying , in case of emergency like the case now with North Korea and South
if needed can we use the SD-10 in Mirages in case if China is dragged into the mess and we have to help China out obviously

 

[khurasaan1]

I guess is possible ...we might need some modification in the aircraft for this purpose....other than that it will be very hard to integrate them...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

200 Mirages on SD-10
30 JF17 Thunders on SD-10 by end of 2010

Would be a wonderful addition together with vision of AWACs added to our airforce - 4 sweedish and 4 Chinese etc makes big difference in our operational capacity

While we also have the US missiles but they are only for our F16 platform so it serves that purpose - we all know how long it takes for those F16 to reach us

SD-10 is just dependable alternative latest who knows it might be the best missile in our arsenel once we get enough in our inventory

Its just a great tactical advantage knowing our own planes have the same range as the range of any other nation - so every thing is fought on equal footings

I did a little digging in and seems to me - the Mirage has already been tested with few SD-10in past , its a cheaper alternatives to modernize the fleet FAST AND QUICK

Not a credible source to back that up but there have been "reports" that SD-10 was tested with Mirages - since we are getting these - its fair to assume - these missiles will surely improve our operational capacity to defend air space

I would really think twice before flying a big bulky plane into Pakistan air space after we get ample planes fitted with SD-10, I hear that the scrap dealers give you good deal for old fighter wrekage

 

[silent hawk]

The missile is reported to be compatible with Grifo Radars for use in J-10

From Wikipedia
The Italian FIAR (now SELEX Galileo) Grifo 2000/16, has been offered to the Pakistan Air Force for installation on the J-10

The PAF Mirages and F-7 PGs already have the Grifo Radar installed hence it can be asumed that as soon as SD-10s are inducted they shall be available on PAF JF-17, Mirages and F-7 PG aircrafts making more than 60% of the fleet BVR capable

 

[Chogy]

It is not difficult at all to patch a heat-seeking missile into an airframe. The British added the AIM-9L to their Harriers in a matter of a couple of weeks prior to the Falklands combat. The missile is set to boresight, the audio patched into the headset, and when the distinct tone is heard, the missile can be launched. Once away, nothing else need be done.

It is very, very much more difficult to add a radar-guided missile into an airframe not designed for it. The entire system is highly integrated. The radar must be capable of providing the correct guidance signals to the missile, all at very high speed, and with accuracy. It CAN be done, such as the SD-10 to the JF-17, but it is going to take a bit of time, access to source codes and very specific technical data, and some talented engineers. If China provides engineers to help, it'd be done in 1/10th of the time compared to a solo effort. I'm assuming that if China sells the missile in quantity to Pakistan, part of that sale would be technical assistance to do just that.