Scuttling a 'Made in India' project: The case of the HTT-40 trainer

[sancho]

So what happened to IAF BRD mfg'ing the PC-7?

If true (Ajay Shukla report), MoD seems to demand the production at HAL, which is kind of surprising to me, since this is a perfect chance to divert the licence production to privat industry again. Maybe MoD finally has found a softspot for HAL too and not diverting all the work from them away. The irony would be though, that it's the least wanted production HAL would want.

So was Mig27 Dare and Jaguar Darin III, both opposed by IAF tooth and nail.

Are you trying to compare the upgrade of an operational aircraft, with the development of a not necessary aircraft? The extend of the upgrades were a waste of money, no denying in that, but they had to be done to extend their operational life. HAL had no reason to spend $55 millions on a project that has no future, neither in the Indian forces, nor as an export potential.

HAL has not been able to transform itself into a forward-looking aerospace hub when compared to other agencies like Israeli Aircraft Industry or even Embraer of Brazil that started around the same time.

I have heared that comparison some times now, not sure if the time lines fit, but to be fair though HAL was also limited by ADA / DRDO. Embraer for example don't have such limitation afaik of being reduced to a sole production facility with limited R&D participation, but it is true however that HAL did far too little in the time to improve themself.

I don't think you are looking at this from viewpoint of corporate culture.
55 million dollars was not wasted by satisfy anybody's ego, its just risk associated with business.

What business? The prime customer for whom that product was aimed for, already has selected an alternative, so that business potential is gone. That's why it's a waste of money, to invest in a project that already is dead!
They should had invested the money years ago, instead of waiting for MoD or IAF to do it, then we wouldn't have to wait for the first flight of HTT40 at a time when IAF already has more than 50 PC7s in operational service. So all HAL is doing here, is proving a point, that they can develop a trainer, which nobody is even denying, but they had their chance for years and just messed it up. They should had invested a fraction of the money to finally get the HTT36 done instead, since that would had shown the same point and getting that trainer into operational service should make their egos happy too.

 

[greatone]

What business? The prime customer for whom that product was aimed for, already has selected an alternative, so that business potential is gone. That's why it's a waste of money, to invest in a project that already is dead!
They should had invested the money years ago, instead of waiting for MoD or IAF to do it, then we wouldn't have to wait for the first flight of HTT40 at a time when IAF already has more than 50 PC7s in operational service. So all HAL is doing here, is proving a point, that they can develop a trainer, which nobody is even denying, but they had their chance for years and just messed it up. They should had invested a fraction of the money to finally get the HTT36 done instead, since that would had shown the same point and getting that trainer into operational service should make their egos happy too.

Oh please.
There is no question of ego here.

They saw a business opportunity and went for it like any other company.
This is a standard business practice


Please don't try to do an internet psiko analysis of HAL.

 

[sancho]

Oh please.
There is no question of ego here.

They saw a business opportunity and went for it like any other company.
This is a standard business practice


Please don't try to do an internet psiko analysis of HAL.

Again, what business? Don't just try to find excuses, look at the facts! A market that is flooded with Pilatus and Embraer trainers, HAL with surely not the best reputation after the HTT32 problems and the HTT40 delays and a product that not even the country of it's origin operates, where do you honestly see business potential?

 

[greatone]

Again, what business? Don't just try to find excuses, look at the facts! A market that is flooded with Pilatus and Embraer trainers, HAL with surely not the best reputation after the HTT32 problems and the HTT40 delays and a product that not even the country of it's origin operates, where do you honestly see business potential?

Where you ask ?
Seriously ?
In India ofcourse.

I don't if you are deliberately being obtuse or ignorant of the fact that HTT40 was very much in reckoning for IAF and still has a longshot for a comeback.

As I said please stop psiko analyzing HAL and saying its for their ego.
Do you really believe a whole bunch of grown *** men would do something like that just for their ego ?

It makes you look stupid, no offense intended.
All companies try their damn hardest to further their business and if they don't then they should.
This is what people having been wanting from PSUs for a long time and are finally getting it.
GREED.

 

[sancho]

Where you ask ?
Seriously ?
In India ofcourse.

I don't if you are deliberately being obtuse or ignorant of the fact that HTT40 was very much in reckoning for IAF and still has a longshot for a comeback.

You could at least have read the opening article, before claiming things you obviously know nothing about:

the MoD has directed HAL to close the HTT-40 project. Instead, HAL will build 106 PC-7 Mark II trainers in India.

And wrt to IAF, as if the stand of former IAF Chief Browne wasn't clear enough, here is what current Chief Raha says:

IS: The IAF appears to be highly satisfied with the performance of the Pilatus PC-7 Mk II basic trainer aircraft and its availability on the tarmac – implying much better sustained serviceability states – and; would like to acquire more of the same to cater to its ever-increasing requirements of ab-initio flying training, and to ensure standardisation. But HAL is reportedly going ahead with its HTT-40 BTA programme. Could you please explain in detail as to how the IAF plans to resolve the emerging conflicting situation and what would be its future plans?

CAS: The performance of PC-7 Mk II as a basic flying trainer has met the long aspired requirements of the IAF. The average serviceability of Pilatus PC-7 Mk II has been exceptional and the OEM is providing proactive product support for maintaining enhanced serviceability of the fleet. Within a short span of just over a year, IAF has completed the basic flying training of almost 200 pilots utilising this platform. The fleet has already flown more than 15,000 hours and executed over 25,000 landings. The total requirement of IAF for the BTA as approved by the Government is 181. The HTT-40 project does not meet the delivery timeline requirements of IAF. A RFI related to procurement of additional PC-7 through ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’ route has been floated to make good the BTA shortfall. The case will be processed thereafter, based on responses to the RFI.

..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Exclusive Interview: Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha

 

[greatone]

You could at least have read the opening article, before claiming things you obviously know nothing about:



And wrt to IAF, as if the stand of former IAF Chief Browne wasn't clear enough, here is what current Chief Raha says:



..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Exclusive Interview: Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha

Did I deny IAF is shrking away from HTT 40 ?
The reason for that is import lobby but you will deflect the discussion there so lets not talk about that for now.

I think you are not obtuse but just always shifting the goalposts of a discussion to drag it ad infinitum.
You are deliberately deflecting.

Let me break down the situation clearly so that there is no room for any more deflection.

1.HAL is trying its darndest to get the contract for HTT40.
Now question arises.Why ?

2. You say it is simply because HAL people are all duffers and you sitting behind your computer have psiko analysed them and come to the conclusion that those HAL fools only want this contract to satisfy their inflated egos.
Stupid, retarded HAL!!!

I don't know about them but you sure seem to have large ego.

3. I think its just GREED that is driving HAL to seek this contract and is a welcome step in the right direction of HAL becoming more and more competitive.

Readers are free to decide which theory is more believable,
I am done with you here.
Goodbye.

 

[sancho]

Did I deny IAF is shrking away from HTT 40 ?

Yes, by claiming that there is an Indian market, when IAF and MoD states the opposite. But that's the point, HAL invested the money at a time, when they already knew it was too late for the Indian market, which leaves only export as a chance for business, but that is more a dream than any real potential and that's why such a huge ammount is wasted only for HAL's personal views.

The reason for that is import lobby but you will deflect the discussion there so lets not talk about that for now.

I don't have to deflect anything, since it's plain logic that IAF has pointed out! IF IAF would now order Gripen C/D at the same time when they induct LCA MK1, both with the same capabilities, serving in the same roles, which increases logistical problems and costs, would you think it's a good decision?

I think you are not obtuse but just always shifting the goalposts of a discussion to drag it ad infinitum.
You are deliberately deflecting.

LOL, wait I am the one that actually can show facts and quotes instead of just speculating about business and greed, but yeah I am deflecting.

 

[greatone]

LOL, wait I am the one that actually can show facts and quotes instead of just speculating about business and greed, but yeah I am deflecting.

This line really made me laugh out loud so I will reply you one more time.
Leaving all the inconsistencies in your mental gymnastics of arguments aside, Sancho Sir please show some proof that HAL is full of egotistical fools before you, of all people, talk about speculating.

Waiting eagerly.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's around $55.56 million Dollar right? What a waste just to keep HAL's ego alive.

They spent the money in 2013, if they were serious (I mean those trainers have been creaking for 10+ years), they could have pushed it much earlier and got to testing now.

 

[sancho]

that HAL is full of egotistical fools before you, of all people, talk about speculating.

I already explained that in the first part of the last post, but I never said they are fools, but that they develop the HTT40 only out of own interest as stated, so please don't put words in my mouth! I am refering only to this project and their behaviour in it, which simply is unreasonable no matter if you like it or not.

They spent the money in 2013, if they were serious (I mean those trainers have been creaking for 10+ years), they could have pushed it much earlier and got to testing now.

Exactly, what did they waited for? That was an easy deal for them, they had the know how and experience, they had the market even in a monopoly situation, all they had to do is to develop something. Sadly for years they did nothing but concept studies and building mock ups for Aero India and only after IAF pulled the break and went for foreign trainers, they got active and invested in dead a project.

 

[greatone]

I already explained that in the first part of the last post, but I never said they are fools, but that they develop the HTT40 only out of own interest as stated, so please don't put words in my mouth! I am refering only to this project and their behaviour in it, which simply is unreasonable no matter if you like it or not.

There, you are deflecting again.
When did I say their behavior was reasonable ?


I just asked you to kindly provide proof that HAL wants to push HTT 40 just because it is a damn egotistical organization.

Since you claim to be talking facts and not speculating.

I am not even going to other deflections and backtracks since I know that will just be a waste of my time.