Saudi Arabia bans prominent Palestinian authors from Riyadh book fair

[al-Hasani]

I'm just a believer in an open society because this is natural.

You're fighting against it now, but in the end Saudi will open up and there will be bra-burning feminism, democracy, freedom of press etc.

Maybe even in our lifetimes this will happen.

I'm not sure if the Saudis not rebelling is a good enough indicator of Saudi happiness in their system. Many Saudis are kept a bit isolated from material which would give them freedom of thought (although this will change now with internet...using proxies to bypass bans )

For example, you cannot say that the North Koreans enjoy being starved in concentration camps - yet they have not revolted against the nation.


As for your country being under attack, I have some sympathy with this. I know as a Jew and Israeli that it's not a nice feeling to see your country dragged through the mud. Many westerners judge Saudi on western standards. Saudi is usually the yardstick used for oppressive rules.

Only a change to democracy will help with the image I feel.

The other interesting thing about Saudi is that some on the hard left of politics hate Saudi but not for the reasons you might think. They hate Saudi for being aligned with the US. People like George Galloway hate Saudi but love Iran because Iran is belligerent towards the USA.

It's a strange world.

KSA is open on most fronts. With all due respect you and most outsiders have no clue about the ground realities. Most of your information comes from highly exaggerated reports in the British or American press.

Saudi Arabians are one of the biggest users of social media. Twitter, Facebook etc.

Your own media even acknowledges this fact:

Saudi digital generation takes on Twitter, YouTube … and authorities | World news | The Guardian

Saudi Arabians can travel freely to other GCC states that are more liberal. Do I need to mention UAE and Dubai in particular?

Saudi Arabians are wealthy people and travel abroad very often. Just look at this forum alone. All Saudi Arabians here either lived abroad or currently study abroad. This speaks volume.

200.000 people or so have studied abroad since 2005. Thousands before that year as well.

Internet censorship is small in KSA. Only when it comes to Islam and issues that concern the state security are there red lines. Otherwise not much.

Comparing KSA to North Korea is simply a very idiotic thing to say.

Yet while all nations bordering KSA directly or lying very close to it have suffered from internal conflicts/wars/social unrest while KSA has not aside from a few small incidents. Why should Saudi Arabians be any different from Arabs living next to them or other ME people?

No massacres have been committed by the regime, the execution rate is very small (about 40-50 executions per year) and the number of jailed people is also very small.

Of course I do not care what mostly ignorants say and since KSA has never claimed to be a so-called democracy let alone copied foreign in this case Western systems so we have nothing to explain.

There is a fundamental difference of how the regular Saudi Arabian looks at certain issues compared to the regular Brit just like the regular Chinese person has different views than the regular Frenchman.

Sometimes the West have a hard time accepting this and thus wants us to emulate them on all fronts and those who do not or have their own systems are called out or challenged.

Had we claimed to be a Western democracy it would be laughable.

I do not put much interest in such people. KSA will always have a special place for most Muslims and Arabs no matter what they say.
They are free to hate us and spread propaganda against us but we will just try to give another perspective.

Anyway some changes are necessary in KSA and the society evolves constantly like any other but that's not the topic of this thread.

 

[Armstrong]

I think that @al-Hasani is gonna get me banned from KSA too !

But it would be worth it if I can crack a joke about his Nejadi Sheep like Goatee !

 

[Duvdevan]

Good post Hasani. I accept most of your points.

I still judge a country by how much the government allows its people to air their grievances. You cannot get on a soapbox in Saudi and denounce the government. I think this is a fundamental right and it will come with democracy which Saudi will have one day, this is totally inevitable as it is a natural human requirement to choose your own destiny.

One last thing - does it not do your head in that at parties and other gatherings it's all men? even with us there's the religious lot who have these sausage parties and a curtain separating the women's section.

That's not healthy for a society surely?

Frustrating as hell dancing with men

 

[al-Hasani]

Good post Hasani. I accept most of your points.

I still judge a country by how much the government allows its people to air their grievances. You cannot get on a soapbox in Saudi and denounce the government. I think this is a fundamental right and it will come with democracy which Saudi will have one day, this is totally inevitable as it is a natural human requirement to choose your own destiny.

One last thing - does it not do your head in that at parties and other gatherings it's all men? even with us there's the religious lot who have these sausage parties and a curtain separating the women's section.

That's not healthy for a society surely?

Frustrating as hell dancing with men

There are limits to personal freedom in all countries. Can you call for the overfall of the British government and state in the UK on any circumstances? No, not if you incite violence etc.

People are free to live their own lives.

What you talking about? There are universities for both sexes besides intermingling with unrelated females in a sexual way is against Islam and the culture.

There was this very good BBC documentary about KSA 7-8 years ago. Called "Inside the Saudi Kingdom" if I recall. It had 20 million views on Youtube but suddenly it got removed. Now I can't find it on Youtube. A shame.

 

[Duvdevan]

I like intermingling with females in a sexual way.

I can stand on a street corner and say I want the British government to fall. I can call it corrupt and I can incite anti-government rebellion that does not involve violence (strikes for example) I can do this in Israel too.

You should go into politics Hasani.

Keep the monarchy as figureheads, but campaign for democracy. Become a member of the future Saudi parliament and make history.

 

[al-Hasani]

I like intermingling with females in a sexual way.

I can stand on a street corner and say I want the British government to fall. I can call it corrupt and I can incite anti-government rebellion that does not involve violence (strikes for example) I can do this in Israel too.

You should go into politics Hasani.

Keep the monarchy as figureheads, but campaign for democracy. Become a member of the future Saudi parliament and make history.

Of course you do but there are certain moral, cultural and religious obligations. We all do when the time will be ready for that. We already discussed this in another thread.

You have to understand that the social changes that occurred in the West are about 50 years old or so. Before that time the societies in the West were not significantly different than those found everywhere else when it came to the role of the sexes.

Why would anyone want to do that? Besides nowhere is there 100% freedom of speech. Such thing does simply not exist otherwise it would be called anarchism. Freedom of speech has its limits.

I do not like politics besides I am at home when I do chemical engineering.

Lastly politics are a dirty game and even more so in the ME.

 

[Falcon29]

Of course you do but there are certain moral, cultural and religious obligations. We all do when the time will be ready for that. We already discussed this in another thread.

You have to understand that the social changes that occurred in the West are about 50 years old or so. Before that time the societies in the West were not significantly different than those found everywhere else when it came to the role of the sexes.

Why would anyone want to do that? Besides nowhere is there 100% freedom of speech. Such thing does simply not exist otherwise it would be called anarchism. Freedom of speech has its limits.

I do not like politics besides I am at home when I do chemical engineering.

Lastly politics are a dirty game and even more so in the ME.

Why do you care what this guy thinks about our religion or culture? Don't sell out your religion because critics want us to.

 

[al-Hasani]

Why do you care what this guy thinks about our religion or culture? Don't sell out your religion because critics want us to.

Nobody is selling out anything nor do I particular care about anything that is written on PDF let alone the internet. I am trying to explain to him the standpoint of most people in KSA.

But since this is a forum we might as well have a discussion and since this thread deals with KSA and personal freedom.

 

[Falcon29]

Nobody is selling out anything nor do I particular care about anything that is written on PDF let alone the internet. I am trying to explain to him the standpoint of most people in KSA.

But since this is a forum we might as well have a discussion and since this thread deals with KSA and personal freedom.

He won't be satisfied until Islam is vanished, that's all I want to get across to you.

 

[Duvdevan]

Why do you care what this guy thinks about our religion or culture? Don't sell out your religion because critics want us to.

Stop interfering Hazzy. I was just about to turn Hasani into a feminist atheist.


--

Hasani, if the chemical engineering doesn't work out - politics is for you. You'll be prone to the odd outburst, but I think you have what it takes.

In your time studying abroad, have you ever fallen for temptation? to drink or anything else?

 

[al-Hasani]

He won't be satisfied until Islam is vanished, that's all I want to get across to you.

It's irrelevant here. I am not trying to make him convert or anything along those lines. I do not care whether he or anyone else here hates KSA, Arabs, Muslims etc. Or whatever they do. Whenever I counter people it's only due to me being on PDF already and my logic of "might as well do it". Sometimes it gets out of hand and time is wasted.

PDF is basically just a waste of time. At its core.

Which is why I am dosing down on it or just using it late at night when every daily obligation is done.

I know that he probably hates Islam and Arabs but when I make replies to him or others I make them for all the viewers visiting PDF.

 

[Duvdevan]

He won't be satisfied until Islam is vanished, that's all I want to get across to you.

I think it's time for all religion to vanish.

I acknowledge religion's role in history as a moral compass and perhaps even advancing humanity in certain aspects - but the days of humanity needing religion or religion being a positive influence, have gone.

Keep culture though. I like different cultures.

I will let you keep your beard after I "vanish" Islam.

 

[al-Hasani]

Stop interfering Hazzy. I was just about to turn Hasani into a feminist atheist.


--

Hasani, if the chemical engineering doesn't work out - politics is for you. You'll be prone to the odd outburst, but I think you have what it takes.

In your time studying abroad, have you ever fallen for temptation? to drink or anything else?

I have tremendous respect for females nor could I ever think of oppressing them since I obviously keep my mother, sisters (younger and older ones) and especially my grandmother in very high regard as all other female relatives. Yet we have fundamentally different views when it comes to sexes due to religious and cultural differences.

My chemical engineering is going very well.

Politics is not for me. I prefer to be behind the scene. Politicians are just the tools of those that are really ruling. The public tools.

What I have done or not done is not important here. But since I have lived in the West for half of my life you can guess the rest. I have witnessed both worlds from close hand but it does not mean that I actively took part in what occasionally happens in the West and which I deem harmful for religious and cultural reasons.

 

[Duvdevan]

Ah right, didn't know you'd moved to the west. Thought it was just for study.

So, the obvious question - why move when you love KSA so much? do you concede that you feel more free in the west?

Every man should taste a cold beer on a hot day.

You still talk very much as if you're disconnected from the west. Are you having integration problems?

 

[al-Hasani]

Ah right, didn't know you'd moved to the west. Thought it was just for study.

So, the obvious question - why move when you love KSA so much? do you concede that you feel more free in the west?

Every man should taste a cold beer on a hot day.

You still talk very much as if you're disconnected from the west. Are you having integration problems?

I did not move anywhere permanently. I am currently studying abroad but I have lived abroad, mainly in the West, due to the nature of my father's work for about half of my life. I have a lot of relatives living in Europe in various European countries (UK and France mainly) and European relatives.

I feel free everywhere. It's just a state of mind. I have no lust to do extreme things or act like an idiot in Hyde Park on top of a fiberboard.

Why should I have any problems because I do not agree with everything that happens in the West? I don't agree with everything in KSA either.

I don't even know what we are arguing anymore. I do not force anything upon anyone but I do reserve the right to want to keep my religion, culture etc. intact in my own country. Is that too much to demand?

I also don't like the condemning tone that I have witnessed among many Westerners or the simple fact that many of them seem unable to understand that not everyone wants their system or that there are many different systems out there.