Saudi arabia and attitudes towards non-arab muslims.

[fhassan]

Fhassan, one more question to you on Islam. I know that you guys dont translate the Koran, so how does the lay muslim who does not know arabic read the Koran

Thank you for your question.

We do actually have translations of the Qur’an, in every language for non-Arab Muslims. Most of the Muslim world does not speak Arabic as it’s first language and so the Qur’an has been translated in virtually every language.

However, even though we have translations of the Quran, we do not accept that the translation of the Qur’an is the word of Allah. This is because the Qur’an was revealed in Arabic and Arabic is a very complex language – this makes certain verses almost impossible to translate into other languages.

For example – one word could have 4 meanings all of which are applicable in the context of the verse – so translators have a difficult time translating such words, and they often make mistakes.

Also, the Qur’an flows very well and when heard sounds very beautiful – however, once you translate the poetic majesty is lost. For example:

On this basis, the Muslims do not accept the translation of the Qur’an as the direct word of Allah, and only the original Arabic is regarded as the direct word of Allah.

Non-Arab Muslims therefore, seek guidance from a tafsir of the Qur’an - which is basically an explanation of the Arabic Qur’an in detail.

Non-Arab Muslims (as do Arab-Muslims) seek guidance from the Sunnah of the prophet (pbuh) these are the sayings and actions of the prophet (pbuh).

Muslims seek guidance from scholars who have spent years studying the Arabic Quran etc in Islam, it is very important to sit with scholars because true guidance comes from keeping good company. For example, when you want to learn karate you go to a karate expert and you don’t just read a book.

This is why Allah sent the Qur’an and the walking and talking Qur’an with it, which was prophet muhammed (pbuh) – both are important.

Anyway, If you have any more questions please PM me, and ill try to answer –no point discussing on this unrelated thread.

 

[FireFighter]

You see there you go again. Just because I am of Indian origin and commenting on Saudi / Pakistani (muslim) issues doesnt mean you throw it back at India. The issue is not about India. BTW we didnt invade Kashmir , and just because Pakistan claims Kashmir on grounds of Islam is not valid, just because you ask for it , why should we give it to you. We have more muslims in India than in Pakistan. As I had said earlier in my post, use your head not your heart, dont get emotional. Be radical and respond radically. In all my post I do not smear Paksitanis nor look down on them, the forum is for knowledge, information and practical discussion. Dont let your emotions get the better of you

The whole idea of mentioning Kashmir is to remind the many Indians here of India's role in ethnic cleansing, oppression, subjugation and discrimination of the Kashmiri and muslim people, so that before they accuse the Saudis of such any discrimination, they should examine their own behaviours.

Now I dont want to turn this thread into a Kashmir issue. But I want to show the bias that runs through your minds when it comes to Kashmir. Historically speaking Buddist Monks discovered Kashmir and then later Asoka fought and took over the valley. there have been times when Kashmir was not part of the Sub-continent, it had its own sultanate and kings and was a completely separate entity. It has not always been attached to Hindustan as its instilled and indoctrinated in your minds today. So on what grounds does the Indian political elite believe that its a part of India today? and they have ownership over the state? Where does it state that Kashmir must be a part of India? is it in the Geeta? If not then were does this belief come from that unanimously binds both BJP and Congress Hindu political elite on the issue? In my opinion its truly rooted in their Hindu religious traditions that makes them so unified and overly protected over the issue.

Secondly, you're absolutely wrong about Pakistans stance on Kashmir. All Pakistan desires is that let the Kashmiris decide for themselves through a plebiscite.

 

[New Vision]

The whole idea of mentioning Kashmir is to remind the many Indians here of India's role in ethnic cleansing, oppression, subjugation and discrimination of the Kashmiri and muslim people, so that before they accuse the Saudis of such any discrimination, they should examine their own behaviours.

Now I dont want to turn this thread into a Kashmir issue. But I want to show the bias that runs through your minds when it comes to Kashmir. Historically speaking Buddist Monks discovered Kashmir and then later Asoka fought and took over the valley. there have been times when Kashmir was not part of the Sub-continent, it had its own sultanate and kings and was a completely separate entity. It has not always been attached to Hindustan as its instilled and indoctrinated in your minds today. So on what grounds does the
Indian political elite believe that its a part of India today? and they have ownership over the state? Where does it state that Kashmir must be a part of India? is it in the Geeta? If not then were does this belief come from that unanimously binds both BJP and Congress Hindu political elite on the issue? In my opinion its truly rooted in their Hindu religious traditions that makes them so unified and overly protected over the issue.

Secondly, you're absolutely wrong about Pakistans stance on Kashmir. All Pakistan desires is that let the Kashmiris decide for themselves through a plebiscite.

There is no logical explanations for your post. Anyways, if you believe that Pakistan wants the desires of the Kashmiri people, the answer is simple and that answer would even force India to concede. Pakistan should have made Kashmir (Azar or occupied) and independent state, and then you would see a total different scenario. Unfortunately its quite obvious what Pakistans intentions are. You have spent your whold post independence persuing Kashmir and your hatred towards India, instead of pursuing education and economy. Did you ever stop to think what Pakistan would have been today if it had pursued that, by accomplishing greatness for yourselves you would have had much more diplomatic punch, but alas, ....you know the reality. I wont respond to any more Kashmir issues further . Thanks

 

[muse]

A small step in the right direction:



S Arabia launches first co-education university

* Officials backing King Abdullah fear young people will be drawn to militancy without reforms

THUWAL: Saudi Arabia opened its first co-education university on Wednesday, a high-tech campus with massive funds which reformers hope will spearhead change in the kingdom.

Western diplomats hope the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST), which has attracted more than 70 professors and 800 students from abroad, would usher reform after recent setbacks such as shelving municipal elections planned for this year and cancelling cultural events opposed by clerics. King Abdullah was due to inaugurate the university 80 kilometres north of Jeddah in the presence of regional leaders, Western officials and Nobel laureates late on Wednesday.

The 85-year-old monarch has promoted reforms in the world’s top oil exporter since taking office in 2005 to create a modern state, stave off Western criticisms and lower dependence on oil but faces resistance from conservative clerics and princes.

Future concerns: Officials who back Abdullah fear that without reforms, young people would be drawn to militancy in the future. Supporters are presenting KAUST as a tangible gain for the king’s plans, which have included more long-term projects such as an overhaul of courts, the education system and building “economic cities” to create jobs for the young population.

“There is truly no other university in the world so well-equipped. Anywhere. The issue is, of course, what is to be done with the equipment and that remains to be seen,” former US diplomat John Burgess wrote in his Saudi blog “Crossroads Arabia”. reuters

 

[muse]

A war that has long been a proxy war, perhaps may turn into all out struggle.

Saudis eye Russian air defence system

RIYADH: Saudi Arabia is weighing buying an advanced Russian missile system to shore up its defence against a potentially nuclear Iran, Gulf analysts and diplomats said.

They said Moscow and Riyadh are close to sealing a deal on a multi-billion-dollar weapons package that could include Russia’s advanced S-400 missile defence system. It is the newest version of the S-300 long-range surface to air missile system that Moscow has been in discussion for several years to sell to Iran, which denies Western charges of aiming to become a nuclear power.

But heavy Western and Israeli pressure and a possibly more lucrative deal with Riyadh have persuaded Moscow not to go through with that sale to Tehran, diplomats in the Gulf said on condition of anonymity. “The Saudis would rather this weapon system not be sold to Iran or Syria,” another possible buyer, said Theodore Karasik, director of research at the Dubai-based Institute for Near East and Gulf Military Analysis.

The S-400 missile defence system could be a part of a much larger deal with Russia that would signify an important diversification of Saudi arms purchasing from its traditional suppliers – Britain, France and the United States. On August 29, Russia’s Interfax news agency said a two-billion-dollar arms package for the Saudis could include up to 150 helicopters – 30 Mi-35 attack helicopters and up to 120 Mi-17 transport helicopters – more than 150 T-90S tanks, 250 BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicles and “several dozen” air defence systems. Contracts for the sale of the tanks and the helicopters “could be signed as soon as this year”, an unnamed source told Interfax. With the S-400, and a reported plan to buy new US F-15 fighters, the Saudis are seeking to plug gaps in their overall defence capabilities vis-a-vis Iran, Karasik said. afp

 

[TruthSeeker]

muse, sir,
Is it really conceivable that KSA and Iran would go to war out in the open ? The Saudis don't have enough citizens to go to war with Iran. More likely will be Iranian co-option of Iraq after the US leaves, followed by a Hezbollah-like insurgency involving the Shia's of northern KSA with santuary in southern Iraq. Billion $ missiles will be of no use against suicide and car bombers.

 

[muse]

Like anybody who messes with religion hoping to weaponize and then control it, the Saudi will learn a hard lesson and it may not be at the hand of the Iranian.

TS - The Iranian is a piece of work, but his redeeming quality is that he is no Wahabi Takfiri - through out the history of Islam, the arab referred to iran as the Ajami or kharifi, outsider - the Iranian were ancient and sophisticated and rich when the arab was what he still is, uncouth and tribal and so there was a great hostility among the elite of the two, this is also an explanation of the divergence in the schools of law - and later for Safaviah Iran and Offical Shi'ism - you may no tknow it but the Safaviah converted to Shi'ism by threatening 5 deaths in a family, the Osmani Khalifa (Ottoman Caliph) responded by threatening 10 deaths in the family if they did convert to Shi'ism --- on the school of law level, the issue is "truth" -- No country is as hostile to the idea that the Jaffari school be recognized as the 5th school of law as is Saudi Arabia, this is where takfiri inspiration comes from.

It is best for islamiya that Saudi detach from the Wahabi takfiris, but they cannot and will not and therefore even though it will spend billions Saudi will always remain a source of schism and suspicion among muslims.

 

[vsdoc]

6 pages of views from the enlightened and not one willing to grab the bull by the horns and say it like it is ...... RACISM amongst the so-called Ummah.

"We ruled you for a thousand years" ...... the "we" were never "you" ..... "they" simply mingled their seed in the "you" ...... and thus will treat you as such ..... till the end of time ...... religion and wealth and power and nationality has nothing to do with it ..... simply put, it is one "chosen" race looking down on another "impure conquered hybrid" one ..... hard to digest as it might be for most of "you."

Cheers, Doc

 

[vsdoc]

Muse (as usual) makes a strong point.

The Iranians (specifically, the Persian people, descendents of the Persian civilization) have always maintained their language, their culture, their roots, and taken fierce pride in their history, their civilization, their race, never accepting or giving any importance to the Arabs who they have always seen as camel riding bedouins seriously lacking in culture, history, finessese, sophistication, and completely different (and not in a good or desirable way) to their own identity. The fact that they practice the same religion is never an issue or basis for bonds of any sort. Its a racial thing, and every Iranian is very certain of who stands where between the two.

Now take the Pakistan paradox ..... the way I see it ..... and this is purely my personal opinion, you are free to agree or disagree with. Or if you will, it is my attempt (like my good friend Developereo) to play weekend national-psyche psychoanalyst ..... a tough act in itself to follow.

Pakistanis are a people desperately in search of a national identity ...... roots if you will ...... as a people in their own right.

Religion gives them that (or so they have been led to believe .... over generations) ..... rather the route they have chosen for themselves (without debating the right or wrong of it).

So in choosing religion, they impose upon themselves the big brotherhood of the Arabs as the self-proclaimed blue blood of the religion ..... keepers of the faith if you will, and thus as a people GIVE the Arabs that moral/religious/racial high ground ...... subliminally, as part of what in psychobabble we term the "collective unconscious."

Yet they realise in their heart of hearts the original stock they have come from, just some centuries ago, and how they came to "inherit" this new religious identity ...... this so-called different people status ..... of theirs.

They also are ONLY TOO AWARE of how they are looked at as a PEOPLE by the rest of the so-called Muslim Ummah in general (in terms of their racial origins and tenure of religious identity) and the Saudi Arabs in particular.

And it hurts them.

Everything about the pakistani people shows this hurt, this sense of rejection, the chip on their shoulder, the desperate almost pathologic need to be accepted, TO BELONG.

Everything about the pakistani people points to this convoluted collective inferiority-complex ...... the nerdy pimpled bespectacled black duckling trying to swim with the beautiful "racially-pure" "true/real" white swans.

Take the choice of name of the country for starters. "PAKISTAN" ..... the land of the PURE! Religious aspirationally supreme-racial psychosocial cues anyone?

Then take this rabid NEED to prove to the "original martial progenitor race of conquerors" that they too have it in them to be equally brave and strong and powerful in vanquishing the "hated impure kafirs/hindus" across the border ..... and thus try pitifully to earn their respect ...... while equally heart-rendingly prove their racial/religious loyalty and distance themselves from (what they know to be, and more importanly, what they know the Arabs consider to be) their original racial brothers.

So you have strident cries of "we ruled you for a thousand years" (exposed and laid bare in my post above).

So Pakistan fights wars ...... repeatedly, against all good sense ..... with India.

And pakistan loses ...... militarily, economically, nationally, but more importantly, though never verbalised in so many words, it loses and falls in the eyes of those it is trying so hard to impress and prove worthy "martial pak descendants" of.

Tell me if my words find any resonance with what you guys on the other side know and feel yourself to be true for many of your compatriots.

Or not.

Cheers, Doc

 

[vkurian]

The whole idea of mentioning Kashmir is to remind the many Indians here of India's role in ethnic cleansing, oppression, subjugation and discrimination of the Kashmiri and muslim people, so that before they accuse the Saudis of such any discrimination, they should examine their own behaviours.

Now I dont want to turn this thread into a Kashmir issue. But I want to show the bias that runs through your minds when it comes to Kashmir. Historically speaking Buddist Monks discovered Kashmir and then later Asoka fought and took over the valley. there have been times when Kashmir was not part of the Sub-continent, it had its own sultanate and kings and was a completely separate entity. It has not always been attached to Hindustan as its instilled and indoctrinated in your minds today. So on what grounds does the Indian political elite believe that its a part of India today? and they have ownership over the state? Where does it state that Kashmir must be a part of India? is it in the Geeta? If not then were does this belief come from that unanimously binds both BJP and Congress Hindu political elite on the issue? In my opinion its truly rooted in their Hindu religious traditions that makes them so unified and overly protected over the issue.

Secondly, you're absolutely wrong about Pakistans stance on Kashmir. All Pakistan desires is that let the Kashmiris decide for themselves through a plebiscite.

Will you give the balochs the same right.......I don't want you to coz Baluchistan is a part of Pakistan and all discussions should be within the frame work of Pakistan.

This is not a Hindu, Muslim or Christian issue it is a Indian issue and every Indian feels the same way for Kashmir as for any other part of India. Religion has no role here it may be difficult for you to understand given the fact that you are from Pakistan.

Well you are the ones who have given legitimacy to the Saudis to become masters as they decide if your previous presidents and prime ministers can come to Pakistan or not. Earlier it was Nawaz now it is pervez after this do you expect them to treat you with any respect.


It is a well known fact that Saudi petro dollars are ruining your younger generation who are the future of Pakistan but still you close your eyes by declaring them a strategic asset coz they are the children of poor people who struggle to make the ends meet.

All Pakistanis I have met is very talented and hard working people with some support from the government you can make a big difference to Pakistan and Pakistanis. Generations will remember such leaders people like Hafiz Saeed will not be remembered for long nor will be Kasab.

India and Indians have a long way to go we have lot on our plate and are learning from the mistakes of past and tring not to repeat them. We have our share of hafiz Saeed's but luckily no one cares for them.

Your attitude of na jiyenge na jine denge will benefit no one but will certainly make some politicians and generals rich. Continue hating India but stop and think about the Pakistan that you love so much.

 

[IceCold]

Pakistanis are a people desperately in search of a national identity ...... roots if you will ...... as a people in their own right.

Nothing but a pathetic display of lack of knowledge and ignorance filled with hatred and blind patriotism.

 

[vsdoc]

Till I joined this forum, I must admit my interaction with pakistanis was a big ZERO, and besides the media, all I had heard about them as day to day normal next-door-neighbour type people was admittedly based on not completely unbiased views from my Balochi friend.

Then I joined defense.pk and actually started to interact with flesh-and-blood Pakistanis ...... listen to their views ..... their problems ...... their insecurities ...... their perceptions about India and Indians ...... their struggle to carve out a niche in the Islamic world ...... their politics ...... their leadership ...... their heroes and martyrs ..... their minorities ...... their radical as well as reasonable voices ..... their eloquence ...... their passion for cricket and their stars ...... their beautiful women actresses and models ..... their liberals ...... their intellectuals ...... their religious fanatics ...... their desis ...... their phoren-returns ..... their NRPs ...... their ABCDs ...... etc. etc. etc.

And slowly over the past few months I have come to understand them better.

Some more on their insecurities with regard to their relationship (or lack thereof) and (mis)treatment by the Arab muslims in particular, and their collective plaintive cry to be heard and be respected in the well-entrenched Muslim world (to whom Pakistan are the newest babes in the woods at best, religious upstarts in the "Islamic Guardian" pecking order at worst), on display here:

1) This thread to begin with

2) The thread on the Islamic Union

3) Threads on strongest Islamic armies/airforces etc.

4) Continual references to the Ummah

5) Ghazwatulhind wet dreams (pass-out-the-Kleenex time for Indian "NGO" members here)

6) The coming of the divinely ordained Islamic unifier (sorry but I can't recall his name) and Pakistan at the forefront of that movement

7) The Islamic Bomb (as against the Pakistani nuclear bomb) and Pakistan's contribution to rogue nuclear proliferation

Everywhere we see Religion coming before Nationalism and Patriotism ..... small wonder when you see why and how pakistan came into being, and why it is where it is today (and imho will continue to be as long as a pakistani is a muslim first and then a pakistani).

And all this while begging for arms and alms from Christian America.

If thats not the biggest fattest ironic paradox in the world (Islamic and Others), I can't see what is.

Cheers, Doc

 

[vsdoc]

- Self Delete. -

Message sent across loud and clear to person concerned, so no need to burden the forum archives further.

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

Still smarting from India's "wounded pride" episode, eh?

.....

You've mentioned this "wounded pride" episode several times, now I am very interested in this thread. Please provide a link!

 

[r3alist]

Everything about the pakistani people points to this convoluted collective inferiority-complex ...... the nerdy pimpled bespectacled black duckling trying to swim with the beautiful racially-pure "true/real" white swans.

this is a completely pathetic response, well done, your veneer of pretending to be civilised is now completely discredited.

what an awful response, i hope the mods take notice of this racial/religious generalisation yet again, you are self projecting your own thoughts and what pitiful bigoted ones they are.


i wont even bother to respond your garbage, i just hope the mods have some guts and take action, this forum is a joke, its more like an indian propaganda forum, i cant even discuss issues with pakistani's on a pakistani defence forum