Saudi arabia and attitudes towards non-arab muslims.

[New Vision]

Tax was also levied on the muslims known as "Zakah", the non-muslims had to pay the "Jizya" tax which was traditionally lower than the Zakah, so I don't see what the problem is.

Do you expect the Hindus to live tax free with only Muslims having to pay the tax?

The fact that we ruled you for over a thousand years, and that today most of you are still Hindus is proof that we did not forcefully convert you. We could have easily put a sward to your throats over those thousand years, and forced you to convert - but we did not do that.

excuse me , that is exactly what you did, put the sword to the throat. And why should you have levied tax , you did not belong in there inthe first place

 

[New Vision]

Never heard of tax on Muslim. And by the way there was no way sword could have been used on such large population without revolt.

By the way , of what i know tax is Haram in Islam, that is why the gulf states dont tax anybody

 

[New Vision]

Ashoka became a buddist, not a hindu. And your claim of hindu ruling for 5000 years is nothing but bogus.

So pray tell me, do the BJP and Congress leaders see Ashoka in their dreams telling them to make Kashmir part of India? Your claim is full of contradictions, my friend. If not religious, then on what grounds is your justification on the inclusion of Kashmir be a part of India?

Weather you realize or not both your Congress and BJP leadership have this Bharat-Akhand agenda instilled in their minds with a religious fervor.

stop going on about Kashmir, first prove to me when was Kashmir part of Pakistan, and then we will take the argument from there. Also stick to the topic, its not about, Kashmir or Indian muslims, its about Saudi Arabia and the muslim Ummah, or specifically muslims of South Asia

 

[New Vision]

THIS THREAD IS BEING RUINED BY INDIANS, I WANT THE VIEWS OF MUSLIMS AND PAKISTANI'S, THE FEELINGS AND THOUGHTS OF OTHERS ARE NOT RELEVANT.


btw, dont take it persaonlly, i started this thread because i am specifically and exclusively interested in the views of certain people, as predicted tangential issues are being brought up by indians.

I think you got it wrong, it was one of your own guys who sidelined the topic. Btw its a good topic and especially pakistani participators should avoid getting emotional over inputs by indians

 

[New Vision]

anyway, back to topic.

i notice the muslims and pakistani's here seem to distinguisfgh between the average suadi person and the govt. - that seems like an attempt to deflect from the reality - that is to say that the saudi govt. are not true to islam and that there are a significant number of saudi's who are racist.


also, another point to note, arabs and not just saudi's in particular seem to hold a person from the west in higher esteem than any other person, muslim or non-muslim, what odd thinking, anyone else agree?


so tell me, why do we tolerate them?

Realist, you made a very very good point about the way they treat the westerners, it is shameful. I think their wealth has gotten the better of them, also I'm not sure it may be the cultural differences. Having said that, muslims form other parts of the world are more humane. Maybe again, its the rigid Saudi culture that makes them what they are

 

[fhassan]

By the way , of what i know tax is Haram in Islam, that is why the gulf states dont tax anybody

please read my post:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...es-towards-non-arab-muslims-3.html#post491157

Islam is a practical religion and it has a very definate ruling on money: the way it is spent, earned, and taxed etc

All muslims MUST pay the Zakah, this is 2.5% of ones anual income - the Zakah is mainly given to poor people

- please read the post indicated for further details.

 

[New Vision]

please read my post:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...es-towards-non-arab-muslims-3.html#post491157

Islam is a practical religion and it has a very definate ruling on money: the way it is spent, earned, and taxed etc

All muslims MUST pay the Zakah, this is 2.5% of ones anual income - the Zakah is mainly given to poor people

- please read the post indicated for further details.

Excuse me once again, firstly do you pay the 2.5%, and whom do you pay it to. Who disburses your 2.5% to the poor.Of the many many muslims I know, nobody even talks about it, let alone pay it. Yes that tradition of Islam is to be acclaimed. But search your heart and tell me the truth is it being practiced in the Islamic world. I dont mean this as a snub, but I really want to know and I want to know how it is disbursed. Is there a central muslim organization, etc etc

 

[fhassan]

Excuse me once again, firstly do you pay the 2.5%, and whom do you pay it to. Who disburses your 2.5% to the poor.

Yes I pay it; in fact I do not know any Muslim who does not pay it. There must be a few Muslims who do not pay Zakah, just like there are a few Muslims who drink Alcohol, commit adultery and fornicate, but they are a minority.

Today, mosques help calculate zakah for an individual and then the individual gives the calculated amount or more to charity or to a good cause such as building a hospital or school, for example. There are now online tools that can help you calculate the Zakah.

In the past, during the reign of the various Islamic empires, there were special people who were given the task to collect and distribute Zakah. During the first caliphate, in Arabia, there was a tribe of Muslims who refused to pay zakah and war was waged against them until they paid up – just like if you refuse to pay tax today you will be punished by a secular state.

Seen as there is no longer an Islamic empire, the Muslims on the whole give zakah voluntarily (ie the state will not reprimand an individual who does not pay zakah). In England for example, if I do not pay zakah I won’t be sent to prison – so what keeps me from paying zakah?

My faith, I as a Muslim must do what Allah has asked me to do. Allah has asked me to give to the poor, and so I do it, even though I pay additional taxes that have nothing to do with Islam such as VAT! – Most Muslims do pay Zakah. After all, it’s not much – only 2.5% of ones annual income.

Of the many many muslims I know, nobody even talks about it, let alone pay it. Yes that tradition of Islam is to be acclaimed. But search your heart and tell me the truth is it being practiced in the Islamic world.

We as Muslims are told not to be boastful of our activities, as we do it for the sake of Allah and not for others, which is why no Muslim would go out and publicise he/she has given Zakah. We do not do it to show off, but only to please Allah.

There is a tradition in Islam:

“The right hand should not know what the left has given”.

The point is, when we ruled you for a thousand years we also paid a tax as did you – to say tax was levied unto the Hindus without mentioning that the Muslims also paid a tax, making it an identifiable extra, is misleading.

 

[SeaGull]

well...by generalizing Arabs we are also being prejudiced...but
I had a friend (a muslim) working in Dubai...he told me about the discrimination the muslims and non-muslims from the sub-continent used to face from the Arabs...
the sub-cont is more powerful than the arabian peninsula...the arabs have a waning economy...the times of their seeking employment in India-Pakistan-bangladesh are just nearing.

How soon. do you think?

I have a desperate need for a few servants.

 

[Al-zakir]

We do not treat our own people(poor) with dignity in our own country thus why are we bashing Saudis? Saudis may not be perfect but some of our country run with their donation and labor force that work in that country.

A Arabic speaking Pakistani or Bangladeshi does well in Saudi. So make sure learn Arabic before gone to that country. Few of relative are very well off there because they are fluent in Arabic.

 

[EjazR]

And so how according to you Guru Teg Bahadur died?

The Mughals fighting the Sikhs and Marathas were politcal in nature. It is only later that a religious tinge was given to it.

The sikhs had punjabi muslims as well fighting the mughals in alliance. They rose up in revolt while the Rajputs and Brahmins of North India Supported the Mughals.

Similarly, Shivaji rose up in revolt because of oppressive policies of the Mansabdar (who happened to be a Rajput Hindu). He also had a number of muslims and native muslim converts in his army.

I am also against potraying Mughals as only as a "muslim rule". These were rulers who happened to be muslims, but they had a very distinct Indian culture and tradition. Also, Islam reached India first not through the Mughals but through Arab traders in Kerala and Mysore. Possibly one of the reasons why Muslim-hindu relations have been much more amicable in the south thatn in the north.

 

[EjazR]

CORRECTION - fhassan > The 'People of the Book' as referred to are:

Jews
Christians
Muslims

There is a difference of opinion among scholars, as you may know, there were numerous prophets sent to different people along with books by God.

So based on this the vedas, which has concepts of God very similar to the Islam could plausibly be considered the word of God. Moreover, there seem to be indications that some dieties like Krishna, Manu, e.t.c were prophets but their teachings might have been changed over the passage of time. Also there are many sects among hindus, that believe in monotheism and do not indulge in idol worship.Examples include Arya samajis, lingayats, vedantists e.t.c

Hence, the people of the book status was conferred by most muslim scholars in India in the midieval period

Al-Buruni, who was one of the first to study the vedas and interact with Brahmin scholars wrote:

The educated among the Hindus abhor anthropomorphisms of this kind, but the crowd and the members of the single sects use them most extensively.The Hindus believe with regard to God that he is one, eternal, without beginning and end, acting by free-will, almighty, all-wise, living, giving life, ruling, preserving; one who in his sovereignty is unique, beyond all likeness and unlikeness, and that he does not resemble anything nor does anything resemble him.

Infact, even today, most learned Hindu theologians will agree that idols are only a pathway to worship the one god, and that they don't/should'nt worship the idol itself. I'm not an expert on Hinduism, but this is what I have learnt from my friends.

 

[SeaGull]

There is a difference of opinion among scholars, as you may know, there were numerous prophets sent to different people along with books by God.

So based on this the vedas, which has concepts of God very similar to the Islam could plausibly be considered the word of God. Moreover, there seem to be indications that some dieties like Krishna, Manu, e.t.c were prophets but their teachings might have been changed over the passage of time. Also there are many sects among hindus, that believe in monotheism and do not indulge in idol worship.Examples include Arya samajis, lingayats, vedantists e.t.c

Hence, the people of the book status was conferred by most muslim scholars in India in the midieval period

Al-Buruni, who was one of the first to study the vedas and interact with Brahmin scholars wrote:


Infact, even today, most learned Hindu theologians will agree that idols are only a pathway to worship the one god, and that they don't/should'nt worship the idol itself. I'm not an expert on Hinduism, but this is what I have learnt from my friends.

Now listen up buddy!

I don't go by borrowed intelligence and interpretations of others – be they scholars or saints or whoever.
I go by The Quran and my own intelligence – of which our Lord has given me plenty out of His bounty as for sure He has given to everyone of us, if only we would use it. And I am only surprised to see that there was no one here to refute your assertions.
Now is this what the Indian Muslims are coming down to?
Or is it only you specific?

Now, I am not going to comment on what the Vedas is or is not – But there is no second guessing the fact that there is not a people among us to whom the message of our Lord has not been delivered. And that does include the Hindoos.

Assuming that the Vedas is the word of God and including its followers as People of the Book, does not stand up to scrutiny with what has been revealed to us in the Quran.
And if this be the considered opinion of your learned scholars, then why have they also not amended the Statutes of marrying a Hindu woman without first converting her to Islam? In line with their views.

It is of utmost importance to all the Muslims, wherever they maybe to learn and understand Islam in the light of what has been revealed to us in the Quran, before offering their wisdom to others.

And EjazR I wish you well – but please do not feel unease if I do not respond to such opinions in the future.

 

[EjazR]

@Seagull

I said there is difference of Opinion. Al-Buruni was a 14th century scholar from Persia. Even today, not all Indian scholars agree and have difference of opinion as well.

Even the Quran doesn't explicitly mentions who the people of the book are. If it was just the christians and the jews, then Yahood and Nasara would have been enough.

Criteria is usually around
(1) Belief in monotheism i.e. one God
(2) Believe in messenger being sent to them (i.e. prophets or avatars in Hinduism)
(3) Be in posession of a revealed book - even though it may have changed over time.

Now because Hinduism is not very doctrinare and has a lot of other sects that don't adhere to these three criteria, there is diffrence of opinion that all Hindus can't be declared people of the book or not.

Regarding marriage, how many christians and Jews actually follow their teachings nowadays? Some scholars are of the opinion that only practicing Christians and Jews would qualify as people of the book.

Anyways, I just tried to provide you some information that you might not know. If you do some google searches or check out Zakir Naik's website you may get more info.

 

[New Vision]

Yes I pay it; in fact I do not know any Muslim who does not pay it. There must be a few Muslims who do not pay Zakah, just like there are a few Muslims who drink Alcohol, commit adultery and fornicate, but they are a minority.

Today, mosques help calculate zakah for an individual and then the individual gives the calculated amount or more to charity or to a good cause such as building a hospital or school, for example. There are now online tools that can help you calculate the Zakah.

In the past, during the reign of the various Islamic empires, there were special people who were given the task to collect and distribute Zakah. During the first caliphate, in Arabia, there was a tribe of Muslims who refused to pay zakah and war was waged against them until they paid up – just like if you refuse to pay tax today you will be punished by a secular state.

Seen as there is no longer an Islamic empire, the Muslims on the whole give zakah voluntarily (ie the state will not reprimand an individual who does not pay zakah). In England for example, if I do not pay zakah I won’t be sent to prison – so what keeps me from paying zakah?

My faith, I as a Muslim must do what Allah has asked me to do. Allah has asked me to give to the poor, and so I do it, even though I pay additional taxes that have nothing to do with Islam such as VAT! – Most Muslims do pay Zakah. After all, it’s not much – only 2.5% of ones annual income.



We as Muslims are told not to be boastful of our activities, as we do it for the sake of Allah and not for others, which is why no Muslim would go out and publicise he/she has given Zakah. We do not do it to show off, but only to please Allah.

There is a tradition in Islam:

“The right hand should not know what the left has given”.

The point is, when we ruled you for a thousand years we also paid a tax as did you – to say tax was levied unto the Hindus without mentioning that the Muslims also paid a tax, making it an identifiable extra, is misleading.

Fhassan, one more question to you on Islam. I know that you guys dont translate the Koran, so how does the lay muslim who does not know arabic read the Koran