Sam Manekshaw: Remembering the Greatest Soldier India Ever Knew

[Hamza913]

who won the war? definitely India

If you still think India won after what I have said, then your country's future is hopeless.

The ‘way you see it' is wrong then.. I'd rather take the word of ACM Asghar Khan and ACM Nur Khan instead of your words. These gentlemen actually fought in the war and were heroes for Pakistan.

BTW, you're changing the goalposts now.. We were discussing who was the aggressor, not who lost more planes.. If wars were won or lost by the body count of casualties, then the Germans won WW2 impressively. Do you know how many Russians each German soldier killed in WW2?? And USSR won in Afghanistan by that logic. Wars are not decided by who lost more soldiers or tanks or planes, but by who achieved their objectives..

In 1965 war, Pakistani objective was to incite a rebellion in J&K and sever it from India, which failed. India went to war with an objective of saving Kashmir, the Akhnoor bridge in particular (Your own experts agree on this), which obviously India succeeded in.

Now, even if you want to count corpses and declare victory on that basis, then Pakistan lost more land, slightly more tanks and soldiers in the war, although PAF performed impressively against IAF and covered themselves in Glory.

And please stop using silly arguments like ‘Your PM got a heart attack, so you lost'. If the well-being of a leader was the metric of Victory, then the mongols failed in sacking Samarkand, because Ogedei khan died shortly afterwards. Porus certainly won against Alexander (because he lived longer) and Stannis won the battle of blackwater bay (because he lived longer than Joffrey or Tywin). LOL..!!

BTW, you didn't answer my question?? What came first? Indian thrust on Lahore or Operation Grandslam??

India's objective was not to save Kashmir, it was to take Lahore. You failed, miserably. And if we lost, why did India ask for the ceasefire?

And when it comes to casualties, there isn't really a single definite statistic, so nobody can really say who lost more men.

About the Air Force, I wasn't just talking about who lost more planes, I was talking about the IAF being on the brink of collapse, just look it up and you will see.

Whilst Grandslam came before the attack on Lahore, India starting skirmishes happened before Grandslam.

 

[Samrat420]

If you still think India won after what I have said, then your country's future is hopeless.



India's objective was not to save Kashmir, it was to take Lahore. You failed, miserably. And if we lost, why did India ask for the ceasefire?

And when it comes to casualties, there isn't really a single definite statistic, so nobody can really say who lost more men.

About the Air Force, I wasn't just talking about who lost more planes, I was talking about the IAF being on the brink of collapse, just look it up and you will see.

Whilst Grandslam came before the attack on Lahore, India starting skirmishes happened before Grandslam.

Grandslam wasn't a skirmish.. Stop peddling this stupid lie.. Nobody uses Main Battle Tanks and Heavy artillery in skirmishes.. Your whole 12th division was involved in Op Grandslam FFS. It was a full-fledged attack, not a skirmish. It was an act of war.

And no, Indian objective was not to capture Lahore. The attack on Lahore was a diversionary move intended to relieve pressure from Akhnoor sector and force Pakistan to abandon its thrust and go on defensive mode.. And it worked. Pakistan army, suddenly felt its flanks exposed and had to abandon Op Grandslam. That's how the Akhnoor bridge was saved - the logistical lifeline of Indian forces in Jammu. As I said, read a bit of neutral history. Do you think you're whims and fantasies are more reliable than the words of ACM Ali Asghar Khan and ACM Nur Khan ??

It was a stupid blunder by PA high command to think that if they attack India in J&K sector, then India would also retaliate in J&K only, and not open new front in Punjab or Rajasthan sector, where PA was more vulnerable. Just because you punch my ribs, doesn't mean I'm supposed to retaliate on your ribs only.. I can punch your face in return too.. No?

If Pakistani objective was to defend Lahore, then why were Op Gibraltar and Grandslam launched? Wasn't Lahore pretty safe and secure already?

 

[GuardianRED]

If you still think India won after what I have said, then your country's future is hopeless.



India's objective was not to save Kashmir, it was to take Lahore. You failed, miserably. And if we lost, why did India ask for the ceasefire?

And when it comes to casualties, there isn't really a single definite statistic, so nobody can really say who lost more men.

About the Air Force, I wasn't just talking about who lost more planes, I was talking about the IAF being on the brink of collapse, just look it up and you will see.

Whilst Grandslam came before the attack on Lahore, India starting skirmishes happened before Grandslam.

Good Morning PPL!.. day has started with a good laugh after read this Quote!!! ....lol

First - Modern History is based in actual accounts and NOT on one Feelings i,e, "The Way I see it" version of @dsr478 who even presented with articles by his own compatriots - is still not the WAY he wants to SEE!!

Also @dssr478, are u still in 1965 "If you still think India won after what I have said, then your country's future is hopeless"

Are u serious ???Remember its 2016!!!!.... Our future is so looking pretty Good w.r.t yours !

Would suggest members that this person is just attention seeking and not waste our time with

 

[pakdefender]

Indians got their arse kicked , their aim was to have tea in lahore ..

Maneksaw tunda was indeed the best india could come up with

 

[GuardianRED]

Indians got their arse kicked , their aim was to have tea in lahore ..

Maneksaw tunda was indeed the best india could come up with

WOW ... U REALLY are part of the same "The Way I see it" version of @dsr478 and HAVE shown HOW LITTLE or NO Knowledge of HISTORY and THAT TOO your OWN HISTORY

SAD, REALLY SAD

Just to Help you a little bit - This Thread is About FM Sam Manekshaw .... He was he COAS for the 1971 War!!! and has nothing to do with 1965

 

[GuardianRED]

yes we know tunda was at the forefront of supporting mukti bani terrorists
your great moment and achievement against Pakistan came by way of supporting terrorists

The greatest soldier india ever know was a terrorist supporting tunda rat! is that pathetic or what ?

U and Only U (i.e. Pakistan) thinks they are terrorist !..... History and the World Knows them as Freedom Fighters ! ... and we are more interest what the world thinks and NOT what and who Pakistan says "The Way I see it" version of History ......actually no one does .... Sad really

 

[pakdefender]

U and Only U (i.e. Pakistan) thinks they are terrorist !..... History and the World Knows them as Freedom Fighters ! ... and we are more interest what the world thinks and NOT what and who Pakistan says "The Way I see it" version of History actually no one does .... Sad really

Chal Chal ziyada batain na kar

your greatest achievement against Pakistan came by way of supporting terrorists
Manekshaw is just among the rats who supported terrorism against Pakistan

Mukti Bani is listed as a Terrorist organization on TRAC ( Terrorist Research and Analysis Consortium )

http://www.trackingterrorism.org/group/mukti-bahini

 

[GuardianRED]

Chal Chal ziyada batain na kar

your greatest achievement against Pakistan came by way of supporting terrorists
Manekshaw is just among the rats who supported terrorism against Pakistan

Wow Name calling - Standard reply from one who knows he is wrong

+ we know The COWARD who surrendered with 90,000 troops and the one who was later hanged for all this!

 

[MilSpec]

1. Do some research and you will find it, the British PM at the time actually played mediator. These skirmishes lasted all the way from April to well within the summer. There is only so much we can take.

2. We have always done ops like those, just not to the same scale. I wouldn't be surprised if there were Pakistani troops supporting Kashmiri militants in India right now.

3. 1971 was a different situation, India was already going to send troops en masse to Pakistan, and did so. In 1965, if we wanted to start a major war, why was there an almost 2 week gap between the ops and the actual start of the war?



We have always done ops like Gibraltar, just not on such a large scale. We are probably doing ops like that right now, does this mean India should go ahead and invade Pakistan tomorrow? No, it doesn't. Gibraltar was just meant to be the big push to make Kashmiri's really fight, and whilst it didn't work in the short term, in the long term it certainly made Kashmiri insurgency more popular.

After that, we did not push with tanks into Kashmir, don't be stupid. There was an almost 2 week gap and then India invaded Pakistan and tried to take Lahore.

India did not manage to take Lahore, and ended up asking for the ceasefire. Also, when your Prime Minister get's a heart attack from the ceasefire, you have dun fucked up.

I don't want to rub salt on 71 and 99 fiasco, no point int doing that, but it seems that you have started believing your own lies on the 65 war so I will cross post a few lines.

So Lets hear from few Pakistani Gentlemen, I think their narrative of the war differs from you to, but do contemplate very carefully before you start questioning their credentials.


Air Chief Marshal: Asghar Khan
Air Chief Marshal: Nur Khan
Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin
Col. S.G Mehd (SSG Commander)



What do you have to say about 1965 war?

If you were to ask me this question when I was a young officer, my reply would have been quite different because I fought in that war, saw tactical action and in my perception we did well and beat back the aggressor and won the war. As one matures, learns and has the ability to analyze, one begins to differentiate between myth and reality, of course, with the advantage of the hindsight. 1965 War manifested the shortsightedness and immaturity of our political and military leadership. Pakistan started with ‘Operation Gibraltar’ in Kashmir. We have been made to think it was very bold and imaginative in conception and prepared by a great General. In my opinion it was bold, unimaginative, unpracticable plan. It was not in harmony with prevailing environment in Indian Held Kashmir. It was based on dangerous assumptions and its time frame was unrealistic and quixotic. The plan reflected strategic naivety and immaturity. To top it all the preparation and subsequently the execution displayed lack of professionalism. Since it lacked politico-strategic framework and vision it placed Pakistan in a very precarious position. On its failure, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was launched, which did make military sense since it enjoyed the superiority of strategic orientation. The capture of objective (Akhnur Bridges) would sever the Indian lines of communication in Kashmir and force them to retract. This operation was to suffer a major setback when the advance was halted because of an explainable change of command in the middle of the battle. Indians were so threatened by this move that they attacked with full might across the international border threatening Lahore and Sialkot. Our leaders panicked, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was brought to a grinding halt. Later, a brilliantly conceived Riposte from Khem Karan failed because a correct mix of units was not mustered to achieve a superior relative strength situation at the right time at the right place. We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir. Ayub Khan thus ruined the national economy by one wrong decision that had taken him several years to build.

Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ

Cover Story

This in short is Nur Khan’s version of 1965 war, which he calls an unnecessary war and says that President Ayub for whom he has the greatest regard should have held his senior generals accountable for the debacle and himself resigned.

This would have held the hands of the adventurers who followed Gen Ayub. Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars — the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999, he said.

In each of the subsequent wars we have committed the same mistakes that we committed in 1965.

Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures. It is not punishment of the failed leadership that should be the aim of the commission but sifting of facts from fiction and laying bare the follies and foibles of the irresponsible leaders in matters with grave implications for the nation. It should also point out the irregularities committed in training and promotions in the defence forces in the past so that it is not repeated in future


Nur Khan reminisces ’65 war - Newspaper - DAWN.COM


Excerpt From the conclusion:
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin:
Ambition, lust for glory etc are perfectly reasonable aspirations where they are matched with military talent pertaining to operational strategy, low intensity operations, strategic insight or statesmanship! All these were sadly lacking at all levels, except unit level bravery and enthusiasm! Gibraltar failed because of pure and unadulterated military incompetence and Akhtar Malik bears the principle responsibility for Gibraltar! The Grand Slam story was different!It wasnot a case ofbalanced distribution of lack of talent at all levels that resulted in the failure of Grand Slam! The principle reason why Grand Slam failed was delay in initial launching and change of command!


Grand Slam - A Battle of Lost Opportunities




this is your Air Chief Marshal Asghar Khan.

Some of Col. S.G Mehdi wisdom.

Conclusion by SSG’s commander: “Had our Government initiated a probe into concept, conduct and consequences of 1965 War’, and raised the curtain from the acts of gross omission or that of the criminal commission, the ignominy of 1971 could have been avoided. “

1965 War — Some Harsh Realities | Ehtisham Siddiqui


Hope that helps

 

[pakdefender]

WOW India found traitors among your cowards??? really? u what to stick to that!? u do know that after your cowards surrendered that were riots in your country + the Hanging!!! Sad really ... u are more worried abt about our History and Not your
"The Way I see it" version of History ... Really Sad !!!

Your greatest achievement is that you provided support to terrorists , that's the feather in your cap

For our part it's good riddance to bad rubbish

I don't want to rub salt on 71 and 99 fiasco, no point int doing that, but it seems that you have started believing your own lies on the 65 war so I will cross post a few lines.

So Lets hear from few Pakistani Gentlemen, I think their narrative of the war differs from you to, but do contemplate very carefully before you start questioning their credentials.


Air Chief Marshal: Asghar Khan
Air Chief Marshal: Nur Khan
Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin
Col. S.G Mehd (SSG Commander)



What do you have to say about 1965 war?

If you were to ask me this question when I was a young officer, my reply would have been quite different because I fought in that war, saw tactical action and in my perception we did well and beat back the aggressor and won the war. As one matures, learns and has the ability to analyze, one begins to differentiate between myth and reality, of course, with the advantage of the hindsight. 1965 War manifested the shortsightedness and immaturity of our political and military leadership. Pakistan started with ‘Operation Gibraltar’ in Kashmir. We have been made to think it was very bold and imaginative in conception and prepared by a great General. In my opinion it was bold, unimaginative, unpracticable plan. It was not in harmony with prevailing environment in Indian Held Kashmir. It was based on dangerous assumptions and its time frame was unrealistic and quixotic. The plan reflected strategic naivety and immaturity. To top it all the preparation and subsequently the execution displayed lack of professionalism. Since it lacked politico-strategic framework and vision it placed Pakistan in a very precarious position. On its failure, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was launched, which did make military sense since it enjoyed the superiority of strategic orientation. The capture of objective (Akhnur Bridges) would sever the Indian lines of communication in Kashmir and force them to retract. This operation was to suffer a major setback when the advance was halted because of an explainable change of command in the middle of the battle. Indians were so threatened by this move that they attacked with full might across the international border threatening Lahore and Sialkot. Our leaders panicked, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was brought to a grinding halt. Later, a brilliantly conceived Riposte from Khem Karan failed because a correct mix of units was not mustered to achieve a superior relative strength situation at the right time at the right place. We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir. Ayub Khan thus ruined the national economy by one wrong decision that had taken him several years to build.

Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ

Cover Story

This in short is Nur Khan’s version of 1965 war, which he calls an unnecessary war and says that President Ayub for whom he has the greatest regard should have held his senior generals accountable for the debacle and himself resigned.

This would have held the hands of the adventurers who followed Gen Ayub. Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars — the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999, he said.

In each of the subsequent wars we have committed the same mistakes that we committed in 1965.

Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures. It is not punishment of the failed leadership that should be the aim of the commission but sifting of facts from fiction and laying bare the follies and foibles of the irresponsible leaders in matters with grave implications for the nation. It should also point out the irregularities committed in training and promotions in the defence forces in the past so that it is not repeated in future


Nur Khan reminisces ’65 war - Newspaper - DAWN.COM


Excerpt From the conclusion:
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin:
Ambition, lust for glory etc are perfectly reasonable aspirations where they are matched with military talent pertaining to operational strategy, low intensity operations, strategic insight or statesmanship! All these were sadly lacking at all levels, except unit level bravery and enthusiasm! Gibraltar failed because of pure and unadulterated military incompetence and Akhtar Malik bears the principle responsibility for Gibraltar! The Grand Slam story was different!It wasnot a case ofbalanced distribution of lack of talent at all levels that resulted in the failure of Grand Slam! The principle reason why Grand Slam failed was delay in initial launching and change of command!


Grand Slam - A Battle of Lost Opportunities




this is your Air Chief Marshal Asghar Khan.

Some of Col. S.G Mehdi wisdom.

Conclusion by SSG’s commander: “Had our Government initiated a probe into concept, conduct and consequences of 1965 War’, and raised the curtain from the acts of gross omission or that of the criminal commission, the ignominy of 1971 could have been avoided. “

1965 War — Some Harsh Realities | Ehtisham Siddiqui


Hope that helps

Air Marshal Asghar Khan was a good guy but good guys can get bitter too

he tried his hands at politics which didn't quite work, these statements are more out of bitterness more than anything else

1971 could have been avoided if we had hanged Mujib ur Rehman in 1966 after he was caught in Agartala conspiracy

 

[MilSpec]

Your greatest achievement is that you provided support to terrorists , that's the feather in your cap

For our part it's good riddance to bad rubbish



Air Marshal Asghar Khan was a good guy but good guys can get bitter too

he tried his hands at politics which didn't quite work, these disclosures are more out of bitterness more than anything else

What about ACM Nur Khan, The Hero Of 1965, who led the 65 air campaign, is he a Liar too? as he specifically says :Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sam-mane...r-india-ever-knew.436742/page-3#ixzz4Cx6VKJly

What about Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ? he says:
We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sam-mane...r-india-ever-knew.436742/page-3#ixzz4Cx6wHD7j
are you saying your idea of aim of 1965 war is more informed than the brigadier who led the forces in the conflict itself or is he lying too?

and what about the SSG Commander Col. S.G Mehdi, “Had our Government initiated a probe into concept, conduct and consequences of 1965 War’, and raised the curtain from the acts of gross omission or that of the criminal commission, the ignominy of 1971 could have been avoided.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sam-mane...r-india-ever-knew.436742/page-3#ixzz4Cx7gvVfk

I am sure you are more informed than these Military stalwarts, after-all they have just spent all of thier lives in service of their forces, no biggie, right?


Actually ACM Nur Khan Sums up your mentality quite right: "Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars"

 

[pakdefender]

What about ACM Nur Khan, The Hero Of 1965, who led the 65 air campaign, is he a Liar too? as he specifically says :Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sam-mane...r-india-ever-knew.436742/page-3#ixzz4Cx6VKJly

What about Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ? he says:
We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sam-mane...r-india-ever-knew.436742/page-3#ixzz4Cx6wHD7j
are you saying your idea of aim of 1965 war is more informed than the brigadier who led the forces in the conflict itself or is he lying too?

and what about the SSG Commander Col. S.G Mehdi, “Had our Government initiated a probe into concept, conduct and consequences of 1965 War’, and raised the curtain from the acts of gross omission or that of the criminal commission, the ignominy of 1971 could have been avoided.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sam-mane...r-india-ever-knew.436742/page-3#ixzz4Cx7gvVfk

I am sure you are more informed than these Military stalwarts, after-all they have just spent all of thier lives in service of their forces, no biggie, right?

add one more to the list

Lt Gen Mehmood

He also wrote a book along the same lines , after he retired and was done coddling up with Gen Musharraf

Bitternes more than actual accounts are behind these narrations , these are good men who have gone bitter post retirement

Yes , I'm informed about many things which can't be stated in public forums

 

[MilSpec]

Yes , I'm informed about many things which can't be stated in public forums

So you are more informed than ACM Nur Khan, Brig Saeed Ismat, Col Mehdi, and ACM Asghar Khan combined three of them who actually fought in 1965? Lets hear it, are your saying that stalwart like ACM Nur Khan is a liar?

Just a reminder about ACM Nur Khan before you even thinking of dismissing his views on the matter
Hilal-e-Jurat
Hilal-e-Shujaat
Hilal-e-Quaid-i-Azam
Sitara-e-Pakistan

PAF Base Chaklala was renamed as PAF Base Nur Khan in 2012

 

[third eye]

The figure 90,000 thousand is concocted by the same people who came up with stories about flying monkeys , talking elephants and celestial pigs , you are master storytellers

 

[Spectre]

So you are more informed than ACM Nur Khan, Brig Saeed Ismat, Col Mehdi, and ACM Nur Khan combined who actually fought in 1965? Lets hear it, are your saying that stalwart like ACM Nur Khan is a liar?

Don't you get a headache? I thought by now you would have recognized that their comments are not out of ignorance but self deception. Nothing you and I can say, that would make a difference. It's another matter if you find the whole exercise fun.