SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[araz]

Ok mean possible option for AZM !, But now PAF selected TAI for JV instead of Chinese

Nothing is written in stone. All we can say is there has been close cooperation with TAI. No one at this moment in time knows what the scope of this cooperation is likely to be. We have roughly 8-10 years in which a lot will become clearer. We will most likely have subsidiary agreements which will depend on the progress various partners have made. One thing , which we can be sure of is that we will have a number of avenues we will concentrate on and depending on which one bears fruit directions will be determined. It is too early to say where these paths will lead to. All that can be said is PAC and TAI are in very close and regular contact.
Where and what role the Chinese play in this whole game is not known. The goal posts have now changed and China is now looking at becoming one of the bastions of progress in the world. What that translates into from Pakistan's perspective is difficult to guess. We can become their backyard like the US- Canada equation, or we can be a more vibrant and dynamic relationship looking at emerging regional scenarios together. What is apparent is that we need to be independent and not looking at helping hands from here and there but indulge in partnerships on an equal basis.
A

 

[Scorpiooo]

Nothing is written in stone. All we can say is there has been close cooperation with TAI. No one at this moment in time knows what the scope of this cooperation is likely to be. We have roughly 8-10 years in which a lot will become clearer. We will most likely have subsidiary agreements which will depend on the progress various partners have made. One thing , which we can be sure of is that we will have a number of avenues we will concentrate on and depending on which one bears fruit directions will be determined. It is too early to say where these paths will lead to. All that can be said is PAC and TAI are in very close and regular contact.
Where and what role the Chinese play in this whole game is not known. The goal posts have now changed and China is now looking at becoming one of the bastions of progress in the world. What that translates into from Pakistan's perspective is difficult to guess. We can become their backyard like the US- Canada equation, or we can be a more vibrant and dynamic relationship looking at emerging regional scenarios together. What is apparent is that we need to be independent and not looking at helping hands from here and there but indulge in partnerships on an equal basis.
A

From current scenario its major partner will turkey and minor will be Pakistan, we have one advantage that is China, we add Chinese stuff in PAF variant as well

 

[araz]

From current scenario its major partner will turkey and minor will be Pakistan, we have one advantage that is China, we add Chinese stuff in PAF variant as well

Look at all possibilities. Why would China-share its engines for an AC which will become its competitor? The engine however remains the weakest link of any Pak Turk project. Our Turk brothers say their cumulative experience wipl help them build an engine but that remains to be seen. If they flounder where do we get an engine from? Russia is a possibility. China could be( with prior reservations) EU and US unlikely. Minor subsystems can come from anywhere including China.
A

 

[RealNapster]

Would China really compromise Pakistan's national security by selling more advanced weapons to Iran than Pakistan has?

From what China has said in the past, Pakistan is to China what Israel is to the USA.

Pakistan is not threatened by Iranian procurement of weapons. this type of discussion in absurd and a non-starter in a FC-31 thread.

The J-35 once cleared for export, maybe an ideal platform for a new dedicated Air arm (long range fighters) of the Pakistan Navy.

India is looking to buy mistral class LHD, so building up the Pakistan Marines and a dedicated naval air arm should be prioritized.

In peacetime they can protect the SLOCs and guard the patrol aircraft in the EEZ and beyond.

We should not force Indian Airforce to throw 100+ 5th generation jets on us. Pakistan can not win that race and hence should avoid as far as it can. Let them buy first. Also chances of India procuring any 5th generation fighters in atleast next 5 years are very very less.

Plus they talk alot so even if they decide to buy you will still have 3-4 years to plan your 5th generation fighter procurement.

 

[Blueskiez 2001]

Pakistan is not threatened by Iranian procurement of weapons. this type of discussion in absurd and a non-starter in a FC-31 thread.



We should not force Indian Airforce to throw 100+ 5th generation jets on us. Pakistan can not win that race and hence should avoid as far as it can. Let them buy first. Also chances of India procuring any 5th generation fighters in atleast next 5 years are very very less.

Plus they talk alot so even if they decide to buy you will still have 3-4 years to plan your 5th generation fighter procurement.

Sorry to say but not buying 5th generation because you will force the other part to buy one is an outdated thinking...

 

[RealNapster]

Sorry to say but not buying 5th generation because you will force the other part to buy one is an outdated thinking...

Not buying because they don't have and hence there is nothing to counter. We are a debt effected country with little resources we just can't fulfill our wishes anytime we want. We plan and spend resources carefully. If there is no new introduction by India, you won't see anything from Pakistan side. We only bought J-10C when India signed deal for Rafael, even then we went for economical side otherwise we also had the option to pay for and get more F-16s.

 

[Shotgunner51]

Not buying because they don't have and hence there is nothing to counter. We are a debt effected country with little resources we just can't fulfill our wishes anytime we want. We plan and spend resources carefully. If there is no new introduction by India, you won't see anything from Pakistan side. We only bought J-10C when India signed deal for Rafael, even then we went for economical side otherwise we also had the option to pay for and get more F-16s.

On the contrary it's more economical to get more F-16, given the already well established MRO infrastructure, mature pilot training facilities and inventory of spare parts & weapons, no extra cost of transition. In fact the unit price for used F-16 could be as cheap as $15 mil a piece (from Denmark with LM service, such cheap price is even threatening potential export of JF-17 to budget-stringent Argentina).

 

[Beast]

On the contrary it's more economical to get more F-16, given the already well established MRO infrastructure, mature pilot training facilities and inventory of spare parts & weapons, no extra cost of transition. In fact the unit price for used F-16 could be as cheap as $15 mil a piece (from Denmark with LM service, such cheap price is even threatening potential export of JF-17 to budget-stringent Argentina).

I don't think so. US spares are well known to be expensive. It is always the same trick used by those manufacturer who claim to sold u cheap second hand plane only to claim condition is no good and need plenty of maintenance or replacement of spare parts. This second hand plane has no guarantee , meaning you need to fork out more. Service interval is also more often.

Instead of going thru these torment. Better switch to new platform and supplier who treat customer more reasonable and less restriction. New plane has years of guarantee and free servicing. Yes, u go thru the pain of handling all new stuff from operating to maintenance but worth getting with less money spend in the long run.

 

[RealNapster]

On the contrary it's more economical to get more F-16, given the already well established MRO infrastructure, mature pilot training facilities and inventory of spare parts & weapons, no extra cost of transition. In fact the unit price for used F-16 could be as cheap as $15 mil a piece (from Denmark with LM service, such cheap price is even threatening potential export of JF-17 to budget-stringent Argentina).

There was a deal for 8 F-16s which were initially meant to be paid from foreign military assistance aid. But when that was blocked then US asked Pakistan to pay something like $850+ million to purchase those 8 F-16s. This amount gives PAF 20 J-10Cs

 

[That Guy]

Pakistan is not threatened by Iranian procurement of weapons. this type of discussion in absurd and a non-starter in a FC-31 thread.



We should not force Indian Airforce to throw 100+ 5th generation jets on us. Pakistan can not win that race and hence should avoid as far as it can. Let them buy first. Also chances of India procuring any 5th generation fighters in atleast next 5 years are very very less.

Plus they talk alot so even if they decide to buy you will still have 3-4 years to plan your 5th generation fighter procurement.

It challenges Pakistan's supremacy over its western borders.

Also, I'm not one of those fools here that believes Iran is a friend towards Pakistan.

 

[Shotgunner51]

There was a deal for 8 F-16s which were initially meant to be paid from foreign military assistance aid. But when that was blocked then US asked Pakistan to pay something like $850+ million to purchase those 8 F-16s. This amount gives PAF 20 J-10Cs

I guess that $850+ mil would include $699 mil for 8 jets plus associated items, but PAF personnel can put them into combat readiness immediately, no need to spend 2~3 years on training & tactics development, let alone avoiding the extra capital investment on MRO/training facilities, spare parts & weapon systems (A2A/A2G missiles, pods) which are not included in the fly-away cost of J-10C which is around $50 mil per unit. It's always economical to extend an already used fleet rather than inducting an entirely new system, and there are cheap used F-16 in the market like the $15 mil Danish F-16.

 

[RealNapster]

It challenges Pakistan's supremacy over its western borders.

Also, I'm not one of those fools here that believes Iran is a friend towards Pakistan.

Is Iran a friend or foe ? Debatable but in concerned thread.

Do Iranian weapon procurement (which don't even exist as we speak) threat Pakistan ? No. Because Iranians will he "catching up" for atleast 10 years from they day they start procurement of weapons from countries.

I guess that $850+ mil would include $699 mil for 8 jets plus associated items, but PAF personnel can put them into combat readiness immediately, no need to spend 2~3 years on training & tactics development, let alone avoiding the extra capital investment on MRO/training facilities, spare parts & weapon systems (A2A/A2G missiles, pods) which are not included in the fly-away cost of J-10C which is around $50 mil per unit. It's always economical to extend an already used fleet rather than inducting an entirely new system, and there are cheap used F-16 in the market like the $15 mil Danish F-16.

Extending fleet is favourable the current inventory life is not too much. Pakistan operate F-16s since 80s. We can not plan to have them around till 2050. J-10C offers that freedom. It's a fighter of 2017. It is meant to grow further. We will be seeing J-10 till atleast 2060. So it's better to built new inventory and tactics to serve future.

Btw Pakistan plan to start F-16 replacement post 2030.

 

[Blueskiez 2001]

Not buying because they don't have and hence there is nothing to counter. We are a debt effected country with little resources we just can't fulfill our wishes anytime we want. We plan and spend resources carefully. If there is no new introduction by India, you won't see anything from Pakistan side. We only bought J-10C when India signed deal for Rafael, even then we went for economical side otherwise we also had the option to pay for and get more F-16s.

Maybe you´re right in that if India do not induct a 5th generation fighter then PAF will also not opt for one. Never the less it is still an outdated thinking - and I am convinced that PAF has evolved and has moved away form this form of planning.

Just look at AZM, cooperation with TAI and so on....

And since development, induction, training, infrastructure, logistics, training of man power take time do you think that PAF will sit around and wait for India to induct a 5 generation fighter before PAF starts to plan of inducting...??? I am convinced they will NOT! Just look at PAF history and their problems in the 90 when they did not have BVR.....

And Pakistan will find resources when it comes to defending motherland....

I rest my case.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Is Iran a friend or foe ? Debatable but in concerned thread.

Do Iranian weapon procurement (which don't even exist as we speak) threat Pakistan ? No. Because Iranians will he "catching up" for atleast 10 years from they day they start procurement of weapons from countries.



Extending fleet is favourable the current inventory life is not too much. Pakistan operate F-16s since 80s. We can not plan to have them around till 2050. J-10C offers that freedom. It's a fighter of 2017. It is meant to grow further. We will be seeing J-10 till atleast 2060. So it's better to built new inventory and tactics to serve future.

Btw Pakistan plan to start F-16 replacement post 2030.

PAF will be retiring Mirages by 2030s. F-16AM/BMs are to stay in PAF through the 50s at least

 

[RealNapster]

PAF will be retiring Mirages by 2030s. F-16AM/BMs are to stay in PAF through the 50s at least

Not all of F-16s are modernised. We still operate majority of basic versions. Also, I said the retirement of F-16 will "start" in 2030s.