SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[Imran Khan]

J31 seems to have been evaluated and found lacking.

how we know sir ?

 

[PakShaheen79]

J31 seems to have been evaluated and found lacking.

Can you elaborate a bit more on it please particularly on lacking part. Thanks.

 

[MastanKhan]

J31 seems to have been evaluated and found lacking.

Hi,

For decades we have been made to believe that the PAF is all about " MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE"---so where does the " lacking " come into the picture---.

Paf always claimed that is was the pilot that projected the aircraft---

True it is a great aircraft for PAF… but allow me to put this forward. Whatever we will see in block III (maybe except the AESA) including likely increased BVR carrying capability could have been done from the getgo. The question is why wasn't it done? … and why is PAF not jumping to join J31?

Hi,

Because it wants a guaranteed project to make money---.

J31 is a completed project---. There is not much money to be made on it now---.

The new project AZM would have a lots of funds to be plundered during the build up stage and no over sight---.

You should be able to get it by now---

Project Azm design will be local. No ToT of an already built aircraft. Yes there will be foreign input and almost certainly a foreign engine. I think PAF does not want to get in a situation of earlier block JF17s with a short legged fighter with limited ordinance (although still capable and the only option to induct in numbers).

Hi,

You have not done enough research---.

The size of the JF17 was the choice of the Paf---. It is not a short legged aircraft for its size---as a matter of fact---it has pretty good legs.

If it gets a modern engine---the fuel mileage would increase by default---and it would be in a very optimal range as compared to other aircraft in its class---.

Project AZM is another money making fraud by the PAF---.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Project AZM is another money making fraud by the PAF---.

But you also say that PAF should have bought 35 Mirages 2000s even if it meant paying for 40 and having that money going into the pockets of corrupt politicians.
By that logic, regardless of whether there is corruption or not with project AZM, it should be more than acceptable to you given its impact down the line on defense and industry.

 

[Syed1.]

But you also say that PAF should have bought 35 Mirages 2000s even if it meant paying for 40 and having that money going into the pockets of corrupt politicians.
By that logic, regardless of whether there is corruption or not with project AZM, it should be more than acceptable to you given its impact down the line on defense and industry.

Using his own words against him, I like it

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

But you also say that PAF should have bought 35 Mirages 2000s even if it meant paying for 40 and having that money going into the pockets of corrupt politicians.
By that logic, regardless of whether there is corruption or not with project AZM, it should be more than acceptable to you given its impact down the line on defense and industry.

For what it's worth, even the PLAAF isn't necessarily convinced of the J-31 either. The scope of a joint Sino-Pak project through Chengdu is still there.

 

[MastanKhan]

Using his own words against him, I like it

Hi,

Rather than being stupid---it is better to ask why---before you start yapping just because you got a tongue in your mouth---.

Those M2K's were the need of the hour---they were ready due to a cancelled order---a proven aircraft of the first degree fully electronic & weapons integrated just needed the flyers to learn to operate and techs to do their job---.

The top tier aircraft built by a proven aircraft manufacturer with a lots of pride and a very high quality control---.

@syed1

OTOH---the project AZM is like an illusion in the sky---.

Projects like these are not taken up by nations whose very existence is at stake---the enemy next door ready to destroy you.

Kamra is just a glorified upgraded aircraft assembly point---it is not a true industrial complex to build a 5th gen aircraft---neither it has the engineering background---nor the educational background nor the energy the time or the resource for a 5th gen manufacturing facility---.

Second thing---in case of war---it is well within the reach of the enemy strike weapons---. If enemy destroys project AZM facilities---which they will right at its peak---there is nowhere else to go---.

But if the JF17 facility is destroyed---china can still produce it---.

The previous military vehicles or similar have resulted in failures---. I do not know of a tier one military vehicle project that is a success---.

So---my question to you is---who teaches you kids these ideas of stupidity---is it your teachers---your seniors at school---family at home---friends---acquintances---who teaches you these things---because I don't teach you to talk like imbeciles on any subject matter---. So---where do you learn these things---.

You already know your industrial capacity and capability if you have any general idea---you know the level of corruption that is prevailing in the ranks---.

See---that 10 million dollar an aircraft bribe for M2K would not have done anything to the engineering side of the aircraft---. That aircraft would still have been a 10 on a scale of 10---regardless---.

The JF17 succeeded because you had an obnoxious ars-ehole of a project director who got superceded by others for rank and he being the mad man that he was---he had to prove that his assignment was no fluke to shut the naysayers up---.

You also had the chinese who had the driving force to make something for pakistan to show that they can do what we demanded---.

The question needed to be asked is---why does the J31 not meet the needs of Paf---. What is its handicap---what is the problem that cannot be fixed---.

We are in a state of war for the last 10 days and our much needed 125 aircraft have not arrived that were promised to be here by 2020---.

The enemy has already annexed a disputed area because of do not have the power to fight and win and yet you want to chase dreams in thin air while the enemy is murdering your citizens---.

You kids are pathetic---sitting on the sidelines waiting like vultures to pounce on me if I make a supposed error---how disgusting of you---.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Hi,

Rather than being stupid---it is better to ask why---before you start yapping just because you got a tongue in your mouth---.

Those M2K's were the need of the hour---they were ready due to a cancelled order---a proven aircraft of the first degree fully electronic & weapons integrated just needed the flyers to learn to operate and techs to do their job---.

The top tier aircraft built by a proven aircraft manufacturer with a lots of pride and a very high quality control---.

@syed1

OTOH---the project AZM is like an illusion in the sky---.

Projects like these are not taken up by nations whose very existence is at stake---the enemy next door ready to destroy you.

Kamra is just a glorified upgraded aircraft assembly point---it is not a true industrial complex to build a 5th gen aircraft---neither it has the engineering background---nor the educational background nor the energy the time or the resource for a 5th gen manufacturing facility---.

Second thing---in case of war---it is well within the reach of the enemy strike weapons---. If enemy destroys project AZM facilities---which they will right at its peak---there is nowhere else to go---.

But if the JF17 facility is destroyed---china can still produce it---.

The previous military vehicles or similar have resulted in failures---. I do not know of a tier one military vehicle project that is a success---.

So---my question to you is---who teaches you kids these ideas of stupidity---is it your teachers---your seniors at school---family at home---friends---acquintances---who teaches you these things---because I don't teach you to talk like imbeciles on any subject matter---. So---where do you learn these things---.

You already know your industrial capacity and capability if you have any general idea---you know the level of corruption that is prevailing in the ranks---.

See---that 10 million dollar an aircraft bribe for M2K would not have done anything to the engineering side of the aircraft---. That aircraft would still have been a 10 on a scale of 10---regardless---.

The JF17 succeeded because you had an obnoxious ars-ehole of a project director who got superceded by others for rank and he being the mad man that he was---he had to prove that his assignment was no fluke to shut the naysayers up---.

You also had the chinese who had the driving force to make something for pakistan to show that they can do what we demanded---.

The question needed to be asked is---why does the J31 not meet the needs of Paf---. What is its handicap---what is the problem that cannot be fixed---.

We are in a state of war for the last 10 days and our much needed 15 aircraft have not arrived that were promised to be here by 2020---.

The enemy has already annexed a disputed area because of do not have the power to fight and win and yet you want to chase dreams in thin air while the enemy is murdering your citizens---.

You kids are pathetic---sitting on the sidelines waiting like vultures to pounce on me if I make a supposed error---how disgusting of you---.

Well I would counter that by stating that IAF was always going to target Kamra, KSW, HIT, POF and other defense related industries etc. That has not stop us from investing in our industrial complex in the past and neither should it in the future. Part of the AZM project, that will be strategic in nature wont be the equipment and machinery, as that is replaceable in a quick fashion, but the knowledge gained from all the different aspects of engineering disciplines that go in such a project. That is where its worth really is in my eyes.

Furthermore, as PAF has already indicated. it is looking to partner up with other countries, so there will still be redundant capacity outside of Pakistan to build back up the numbers needed after a conflict to account for attrition.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) you are correct. PLAAF is not satisfied or perhaps even interested in J-31. PLAN might have no choice but to induct in down the line but the program was perhaps too immature and rushed through and is not up to par for the standards expected going into the 2020s and beyond. Chinese will still keep at it and improve its native content and it might yet get inducted, but I am glad Pakistan is not just jumping at it. We know next to nothing about the aircraft and its performance outside of the fact that it uses RD-93s for now and what it looks like (which is still subject to change).

The way I see it, JF-17 was a light fighter that PAF envisioned fulfilling a certain role in its structure, which it seems to have accomplished in droves. Prior to that, every other jet in our inventory was bought off the shelf and usually only what was available to us. We all know the stories behind the inductions of F-7s, F-6s, A-5s, used Mirages etc ... none of them were our first choice. With JF-17, Pakistan has had a taste of something tailor built for it and it likes how it fits. They are now going to try to do the same with the next LO design and hopefully succeed in it as well. But they have to try first to find out.

 

[MystryMan]

our much needed 15 aircraft have not arrived that were promised to be here by 2020

which aircraft is that?

 

[guest9999]

OTOH---the project AZM is like an illusion in the sky---.

Projects like these are not taken up by nations whose very existence is at stake---the enemy next door ready to destroy you.

Kamra is just a glorified upgraded aircraft assembly point---it is not a true industrial complex to build a 5th gen aircraft---neither it has the engineering background---nor the educational background nor the energy the time or the resource for a 5th gen manufacturing facility---.
…

The enemy has already annexed a disputed area because of do not have the power to fight and win and yet you want to chase dreams in thin air while the enemy is murdering your citizens---.

The part in red is beautiful...

PAF has no business producing fighter aircraft, let alone 5th generation. Such an endeavor is a pipe dream for even more technologically advanced countries like Japan & South Korea, who both have designs on paper which have not materialized despite years having gone by. A country like Pakistan, which is one of the worst when it comes to education & manufacturing, dreaming to make a stealth fighter, is one of the cruelest jokes played with the sentiments of people in this country.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

You want to build a 5th gen aircraft---who is going to sell you the machinery for that project---.

which aircraft is that?

Hi,

My apologies---that was a typo----we were supposed to have replaced 100---125 aircraft by 2020 with newer one to get our number of new aircraft to around 350

 

[GriffinsRule]

Hi,

You want to build a 5th gen aircraft---who is going to sell you the machinery for that project---.

You can let them worry about where they source it from.

 

[kursed]

Kamra is just a glorified upgraded aircraft assembly point---it is not a true industrial complex to build a 5th gen aircraft---neither it has the engineering background---nor the educational background nor the energy the time or the resource for a 5th gen manufacturing facility---.

For what its worth, I doubt PAF is building any fifth generation warplanes within the country. The ultimate scope of Project Azm is to have 'basic' manpower available to even 'sustain' such an aircraft, should the situation arise where Pakistan is able to 'afford' a low-observable aircraft from China. As of right now, the entire manpower is trained on 3rd and 4th generation fighters. They will not even be able to keep up with routine maintenance of such a fighter aircraft in future. Everything else, being shown off, is to give a 'vision' to this project, nothing more. As they say, you'd aim for the stars, will ultimately land somewhere in the middle. =)

As for corruption, PAF is absolutely responsible for it, in a variety of fighter / non-fighter deals. It's pretty much a given part of all deals with all military arms of Pakistan.

 

[araz]

For what is it's worth, I doubt PAF is building any fifth generation warplanes within the country. The ultimate scope of Project Azm is to have 'basic' manpower available to even 'sustain' such an aircraft, should the situation arise where Pakistan is able to 'afford' a low-observable aircraft from China. As of right now, the entire manpower is trained on 3rd and 4th generation fighters. They will not even be able to keep up with routine maintenance of such a fighter aircraft in future. Everything else, being shown off, is to give a 'vision' to this project, nothing more. As they say, you'd aim for the stars, will ultimately land somewhere in the middle. =)

As for corruption, PAF is absolutely responsible for it, in a variety of fighter / non-fighter deals. It's pretty much a given part of all deals with all military arms of Pakistan.

Your statement is contrary to what is being said by other members. The same was said when PAF started down the route of co designing and co building the JFT. We have certainly progressed since the early 2000s. Whereas based on publically available information I have nothing to deny your assertion, I do not agree with it either. A joint venture may still be a possibility and we may have a LO platform instead of a pure stealth platform in the interim(my own assertion). However there is no evidence to support your assertion either. I would therefore wait and watch.
A

 

[kursed]

Your statement is contrary to what is being said by other members. The same was said when PAF started down the route of co designing and co building the JFT. We have certainly progressed since the early 2000s. Whereas based on publically available information I have nothing to deny your assertion, I do not agree with it either. A joint venture may still be a possibility and we may have a LO platform instead of a pure stealth platform in the interim(my own assertion). However there is no evidence to support your assertion either. I would therefore wait and watch.
A

A fighter project of this scale, cannot be pulled out like a rabbit out of a hat. In any case, feel free to disagree. This was my opinion anyway.

And even in case of JF-17, all first batches of manpower for JF-17 project were trained in China, maintenance crews included. And there is only a certain portion of the aircraft that we are right now able to build within the country, not 100% of it. And this is while not even taking into account the avionics end. And JF-17 right now, without the AESA is a 3.5 gen aircraft. What you are referring to a low-observable aircraft program here. Can sort the math out yourself.