Saab wins Brazil's F-X2 fighter contest with Gripen NG

[Donatello]

Ok, lets try this one, Toyota Camry > Perfectly capable sedan
BMW M5 > Also perfectly capable sedan,with additional HP, and additional features.
Price 18K vs 54K

Especially when Rafale :88.8 million
Gripen: US$ 40–60 million

Err It's not like Brazil doesn't have cash. Or UAE, Singapore, Kuwait, Qatar, Switzerland etc.

@Donatello

BBC is reporting that Brazil rejected F-18SH & Rafale due to recent NSA spying scandal.

Seems counter intuitive, since Gripen has engine based on the GE engine......so Gripen has US links anyway.

 

[Contrarian]

This actually is a political decision on part of hindustan and if i may say potent aircraft but a blunder at the same time, they could have actually saved money and invested in more SU-30/SU-35 "Frenchiefied" it just like their israelified SU-30s, RCS is one thing if they had to take a shot at to get lowered RCS product they could have discussed SU-35 whos RCS is small then SU-30 but then again we heard ridiculous smart stealth skin on SU-30 if that was the case more SU-30 would have been better. Yes you are right incase of hindustan but incase of Brazil they have got themselves a good deal lets hope they get NG+ product.

If the Su30 MKI is as superior as India makes it to be (not saying it is not) then where does the Rafale fit?[/quote]

If the Su30 MKI is as superior as India makes it to be (not saying it is not) then where does the Rafale fit?

3 Points:

1. Rafale falls in the Medium Category.

Any Airforce operates all 3 categories of planes. Su-30MKI is the Heavy end of the spectrum.
LCA would be the light end of the spectrum(to replace MiG 21's)
Rafale falls in the middle - with lower operating costs.
Buying more Heavy fighters is not a solution.

2. Rafale has a different task. It is the intended replacement for Jaguars. Its primary role would be A2G, though Rafale is also a multirole plane.
Su-30MKI is a air dominance platform even though its multirole. Its intended role is air superiority.

3. Rafale was selected after numerous trials.
Only Rafale and Typhoon qualified IAF's criteria.
F-16, Gripen, F-18 failed the technical requirements.

Of the two IAF said that Rafale is 15-20% cheaper per unit than Typhoon. So being the LC contender, it won the contract.

 

[MilSpec]

Err It's not like Brazil doesn't have cash. Or UAE, Singapore, Kuwait, Qatar, Switzerland etc.

Singapore primarily operates US origin a/c's
Kuwait and qatar : are again key US allies
Switzerland was a close call. thier threat assesment saw gripen as a more suitable a/c
UAE selection seemed to have huge political maneuvering from all sides where the french lost out.
India's selection was based on criterion unique to India's requirement to which EFT and Rafale fit the best. That doesn't discredit any of the other a/c in lineup which will go and win other deals under other circumstances. How is that so difficult to comprehend. Selection criterion creates a shortlist, and then price to value plays the pivotal role, which includes technology transfer aswell...

 

[flamer84]

Err It's not like Brazil doesn't have cash. Or UAE, Singapore, Kuwait, Qatar, Switzerland etc.



Seems counter intuitive, since Gripen has engine based on the GE engine......so Gripen has US links anyway.

It's actually about money,Brazil recently had civil unrest due to lack of funds in healthcare ,education,Gripen beeing cheaper worked in its favour.

 

[sancho]

Saab wins Brazil's F-X2 fighter contest with Gripen NG

Brazil has selected the Saab Gripen E/F for the 36 aircraft F-X2 requirement to replace its air force's older combat types.

With an acquisition cost in the region of $4.5 billion, the Gripens will replace the Dassault Mirage 2000C fighters operated by the 1st Air Defence Group and a number of the modernised Northrop F-5EMs in four other Air Force squadrons.

The long-awaited announcement was made on 18 December by Brazilian defence minister Celso Amorim and Brazilian air force Chief Gen Juniti Saito.

The decision was driven by aircraft performance, transfer of technology and low through-life costs, according to the officials...

Saab wins Brazil's F-X2 fighter contest with Gripen NG

Congrats to Saab!

 

[janon]

Saab wins Brazil's F-X2 fighter contest with Gripen NG

Congrats to Saab!

Price-wise, that deal sounds almost as expensive as our rafales! What gives? Do they also have provisions for full ToT and local manufacture like we do? If this is the price for the small, single engined gripen, then suddenly Rafales don't seem that overpriced anymore. And makes the case for lots more LCAs in all blocks.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

but it was expensive plane for 125 ml that's too much for small plane.

125 ml........
thats a lot...

 

[sancho]

Price-wise, that deal sounds almost as expensive as our rafales! What gives? Do they also have provisions for full ToT and local manufacture like we do? If this is the price for the small, single engined gripen, then suddenly Rafales don't seem that overpriced anymore. And makes the case for lots more LCAs in all blocks.

You can't simply take that cost as equal, since the order is far smaller at least as of now (potential to go up to 120+). The most comparable price is the flyaway cost, which were often quoted around $50 millions for the Gripen E, around $60 for the F18SH and around $90 for the Rafale, but the price alone doesn't make the case. LCA is less expensive, but also less capable than MMRCA and while this mainly should be a financial decision (although Brazilian industry will benefit a lot from it), the Gripen is more than enough for the Brazilian threat perception, while it isn't for India.
They also have ToT, offsets and other similarities and the from the 12th Gripen the production should start in Brazil.

 

[vostok]

Honestly, I have always wondered how a small country with a small population can create a competitive weapon capable of almost all kinds. And even more - airplanes. Swedes - amazing designers and engineers, just amazing.

 

[Abingdonboy]

That's funny.

Please tell us about the super criteria of IAF for selection process. After all, all those nations where Rafale failed to score a deal, they opted for F-16s, Gripen, Typhoon and F-15s

Hmm, the fact that these aforementioned aircraft are still seeing sales while Rafale is not, puts doubt on it's capabilities.

The Rafale has not secured and export orders as of yet purely because of political pressure that has been applied on the likes of Brazil, Japan, Korea etc. in every competition where the Rafale has gone head to head with the EFT and F-16/15 the Rafale has come out on top. Just look at the leaked Swiss evaluation report to see how the Rafale ranks.

The IAF had something like 600 criteria and the Rafale won on purely technical grounds. The IAF's selection criteria and bidding process were praised by all sides (even the losers) and there was interest expressed from other nations To have a look at the IAF's reports.

The only issue you seem to have is this was the INDIAN Air Force, so of course they can't do anything noteworthy?!

 

[Donatello]

The Rafale has not secured and export orders as of yet purely because of political pressure that has been applied on the likes of Brazil, Japan, Korea etc. in every competition where the Rafale has gone head to head with the EFT and F-16/15 the Rafale has come out on top. Just look at the leaked Swiss evaluation report to see how the Rafale ranks.

The IAF had something like 600 criteria and the Rafale won on purely technical grounds. The IAF's selection criteria and bidding process were praised by all sides (even the losers) and there was interest expressed from other nations To have a look at the IAF's reports.

The only issue you seem to have is this was the INDIAN Air Force, so of course they can't do anything noteworthy?!

Blaming politics is not the solution. When you are paying 5-10 billion dollars for a new combat aircraft, any country will make sure that their corp gets the deal. Number of Nations operated French aircraft, like Mirage 2000/F1 and didn't choose to upgrade to Rafale.

I agree IAF had it's own criteria. Why wouldn't it? You are paying through the nose for that.

 

[illusion8]

The Rafale has not secured and export orders as of yet purely because of political pressure that has been applied on the likes of Brazil, Japan, Korea etc. in every competition where the Rafale has gone head to head with the EFT and F-16/15 the Rafale has come out on top. Just look at the leaked Swiss evaluation report to see how the Rafale ranks.

The IAF had something like 600 criteria and the Rafale won on purely technical grounds. The IAF's selection criteria and bidding process were praised by all sides (even the losers) and there was interest expressed from other nations To have a look at the IAF's reports.

The only issue you seem to have is this was the INDIAN Air Force, so of course they can't do anything noteworthy?!

Let's not forget the immense pressure brought on us by the US and the European consortium and Russia during MMRCA trials. Cameron believed till recently Eurofighter has a chance - Britons went on to comment about the aid they provide and the gumption we showed in rejecting their fighter. Americans were shocked when we rejected the F16 and F18.

Saab from Sweden being from a small country did not have the muscle to bring any pressure. But they tried their best in immensely sweetening the deal.

 

[sancho]

2. Rafale has a different task. It is the intended replacement for Jaguars. Its primary role would be A2G, though Rafale is also a multirole plane.
Su-30MKI is a air dominance platform even though its multirole. Its intended role is air superiority.

That's not correct, MRCA and MMRCA was always meant to replace Migs, be it 21 or 27, the Jags will remain in service beyond 2025, so won't be replaced. Just that Rafale and MKI are not intended for A2A or A2G, not only because both are multi role fighters, but the plain fact that IAF has a large stock of A2G weapons for the MKI (no other IAF fighter has such a large variety), or that flight performance requirements were very high in MMRCA and the 2 most capable A2A fighters made it to the final.

Rafale and MKI will serve more or less in the same roles now, but will complement each other with different advantages or capabilities.

 

[Contrarian]

That's not correct, MRCA and MMRCA was always meant to replace Migs, be it 21 or 27, the Jags will remain in service beyond 2025, so won't be replaced. Just that Rafale and MKI are not intended for A2A or A2G, not only because both are multi role fighters, but the plain fact that IAF has a large stock of A2G weapons for the MKI (no other IAF fighter has such a large variety), or that flight performance requirements were very high in MMRCA and the 2 most capable A2A fighters made it to the final.

Rafale and MKI will serve more or less in the same roles now, but will complement each other with different advantages or capabilities.

I did mention that they are both multiroles, yet there would be an emphasis in certain areas. That is what I pointed out.

 

[sancho]

Number of Nations operated French aircraft, like Mirage 2000/F1 and didn't choose to upgrade to Rafale.

Rafale is no upgrade of the Mirage, it was aimed higher and based on the requirements of the French forces. So it was never meant to have automatically the same customers that procured at least F1s, M2K customers didn't ordered new fighters except of India.
The biggest problem that the Eurocanards have, is that they are too advanced compared to older upgraded 4th gen fighters, which makes them expensive, but at the same time came so late, that they are not as advanced as coming 5th gen fighters. So for customers that only can afford an upgrade from the single engine fighters, F16s, Gripens, or JF 17s are the better choice. Customers that can afford M-MRCAs or even heavy class fighters, will have other aims as well, be it political (Singapore, S.Korea) or industrial advantages (India, UAE).
What we see today however, has more to do with the financial problems that many countries have in these the crisis years. Switzerland and Brazil doesn't really need more than the Gripen for their threat perception, but politically and industrially, they wanted more with these competitions. In Switzerland it didin't even met the minimum requirements, while it was rated low from the Brazilian air force as well, but at the end, the simple fact of low defence budgets caused the selection of the cheapest choice. Brazilian politicians always made it clear, that they aim on strategic benefits for their country, which is why France and the US pushed hard with their politicians and good industrial offers, but when you can't afford it, it doesn't matter what you want.

I did mention that they are both multiroles, yet there would be an emphasis in certain areas. That is what I pointed out.

Of course, but being multi role capable as a fighter, doesn't mean that the operator will have an aim on multi role capabilities. But as I said, MKI has even a pretty strong aim on A2G as well and is not meant to be air dominance platform only, just like Rafale is not meant for strikes only.