Saab India Chairman offers Gripen E over MMRCA deal to India

[Derolo]

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Question is, are the development cost for the twin seater included in the $5.4 billion, what kind of upgrades Brazil wants, that Sweden might not. What additional cost will the lease of Gripen C/Ds add as a stopgap. How much will the development of the Sea Gripen cost Brazil, what will be the final cost of the Gripen E anyway (procurement and per hour) since it's also under development only.

I think Sea Gripen should not be taken into account.

Additionally the full developmental cost is always shared and Brazil will 100% not be taking 100% of the R&D cost.

 

[sancho]

I think Sea Gripen should not be taken into account.

Additionally the full developmental cost is always shared and Brazil will 100% not be taking 100% of the R&D cost.

They have to fund it alone, since Sweden already stated that they will order only single seaters, just as the Sea Gripen is a sole requirement for the Brazilian navy, so nobody else will pay for the development.

 

[Derolo]

They have to fund it alone, since Sweden already stated that they will order only single seaters, just as the Sea Gripen is a sole requirement for the Brazilian navy, so nobody else will pay for the development.

When other countries in Latin America and Eastern Europe take greater interest the R&D cost would be split up.

Additionally we have no requirement of the Sea Gripen so from an Indian perspective it would not affect us. Also the Sea Gripen being a navalised version of the Gripen NG and not the Gripen E would be more expensive and is also above the needed requirement of IAF to fill the bottom end.

Say 5 years from now when Tejas Mk1 FOC still has not been cleared due to lack of mid-air refill tech and bvr performance is below the minimum expectation then GOI will take the obvious step and look at the single engined Gripen as the replacement for the bis and bison. 200 Gripens would additionaly lower total costs.

 

[atlssa]

What ballpark figure are you expecting?

Around US$ 80 million, fly away

 

[atlssa]

They have to fund it alone, since Sweden already stated that they will order only single seaters, just as the Sea Gripen is a sole requirement for the Brazilian navy, so nobody else will pay for the development.

That´s the reason why I don´t believe this will ever happen. It is a complete nonsense.

 

[sancho]

That´s the reason why I don´t believe this will ever happen. It is a complete nonsense.

But the order of 36 includes 8 twin seaters right? So there has to be a development for them and that's a crucial part for Brazil, since the twin seater is where your country can gain the most profit from exports if you have funded the development. The share from single seater sale should be lower and since there is no prospect in selling the Sea Gripen, that doesn't add much for Brazil either, other than having an own Carrier Fighter.

 

[atlssa]

But the order of 36 includes 8 twin seaters right? So there has to be a development for them and that's a crucial part for Brazil, since the twin seater is where your country can gain the most profit from exports if you have funded the development. The share of single seater sale should be lower and since there is no prospect in selling the Sea Gripen, that doesn't add much for Brazil either, other than having an own Carrier Fighter.

It is correct, Brazilian Air Force is buying 8 Gripen F figthers. Lets be realistic, the Gripen C/D is affordable but still the Saab did not succeed well on exporting the fighter abroad. Most of its costumers are renting the planes.
Gripen E/F will be expensive. For Brazil, export options are for South American and African countries, only. I just don´t see new orders coming...
For us, the only good thing is we will locally manufacture many components that shall be used on each new aircraft sold by Saab around the globe. .

 

[sancho]

It is correct, Brazilian Air Force is buying 8 Gripen F figthers. Lets be realistic, the Gripen C/D is affordable but still the Saab did not succeed well on exporting the fighter abroad. Most of its costumers are renting the planes.
Gripen E/F will be expensive. For Brazil, export options are for South American and African countries, only. I just don´t see new orders coming...
For us, the only good thing is we will locally manufacture many components that shall be used on each new aircraft sold by Saab around the globe. .

But the older Gripen was not capable enough to take on roles or capabilities of bigger fighters and it had much competition in it's time, be it F16, Mirage 2000, F18 Hornet, or later F18SH, Rafale and EF. When the Gripen E will be available, there will be basically only Rafales as western 4.5th gen fighters left. So any country that can't afford stealth fighters, but wants western fighters and weapons, will only have limited options.
Which S. American countries would you expect to be interested in Gripen E/F made in Brazil?

 

[atlssa]

But the older Gripen was not capable enough to take on roles or capabilities of bigger fighters and it had much competition in it's time, be it F16, Mirage 2000, F18 Hornet, or later F18SH, Rafale and EF. When the Gripen E will be available, there will be basically only Rafales as western 4.5th gen fighters left. So any country that can't afford stealth fighters, but wants western fighters and weapons, will only have limited options.
Which S. American countries would you expect to be interested in Gripen E/F made in Brazil?

I totally agree with you my friend. Just Argentinians expressed interest on buying the Gripen from us, but they just can´t afford to do so since they are broke. The remaining countries will buy from USA or Russia, not from us. I just can´t see local customers coming.

 

[sancho]

I totally agree with you my friend. Just Argentinians expressed interest on buying the Gripen from us, but they just can´t afford to do so since they are broke. The remaining countries will buy from USA or Russia, not from us. I just can´t see local customers coming.

Not even the once that has bought Embraer aircrafts or intend to buy the KC390?

Chile for example has F16s and F5s to replace, operates Super Tucanos and wants KC390.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

@A.P. Richelieu

please, can you send me a private message? I would like to ask you a favor.

Wouldn't know how to do it. no obvious way on my iPad.

When other countries in Latin America and Eastern Europe take greater interest the R&D cost would be split up.

Additionally we have no requirement of the Sea Gripen so from an Indian perspective it would not affect us. Also the Sea Gripen being a navalised version of the Gripen NG and not the Gripen E would be more expensive and is also above the needed requirement of IAF to fill the bottom end.

Gripen NG is a demonstrator, and Gripen E will be the single seater variant of next generation Gripen.
There will be the Gripen-F double seater and likely Sea Gripen, which may or may not get a
letter denomination (Gripen-S?). I doubt that any more "Gripen NG" will be produced.
We are past this point.

 

[atlssa]

Not even the once that has bought Embraer aircrafts or intend to buy the KC390?

Chile for example has F16s and F5s to replace, operates Super Tucanos and wants KC390.

I understand your point of view. I believe we have outstanding chances with our KC-390, nevertheless I don't see it the same way with the Gripen. For the Chileans it is easier to buy new fighters from the US, and that could be more F-16 or even the F-35. As I told you, the Gripen E/F final price wont help that much.

The Venezuelans could be interested, but they are subject to U.S. embargo. We tried to sell them Super Tucanos and the AMX fighter few years ago, but it didn't go through due to a US veto.

 

[sancho]

The Venezuelans could be interested, but they are subject to U.S. embargo. We tried to sell them Super Tucanos and the AMX fighter few years ago, but it didn't go through due to a US veto.

Yeah Venezuela is a no go, the US will veto a sale and even the speculated sale to Argentina (if they could afford it), might be blocked by UK, which surely won't allow to sell their rada, IRST and EW parts to them, let alone advanced weapons like Meteor.

P.S.

Something interesting on ToT:

As the contract with FAB has just been signed on the 24th of October, the prediction is that the Saab agreements with each of the companies that receive Swedish technology transfer should be completed by mid 2015.

What everyone should do:

EMBRAER

• Integrates the organization of the Joint Program Management during the program
• Receiving extensive transfer of technology related to the Gripen NG
• Cooperation with Saab into work packages dedicated development related to program
• Final assembly of the aircraft in Brazil
• Conducting flight tests and checks
• Participation in studies of future capabilities with Saab and the DCTA

AEL

• Receiving transfer of technology related to the HMI and avionics (aircraft electronics) Gripen NG
• Development, production and delivery of WAD (WideArea Display), HUD (Head-Up Display), HMD (Helmet Mounted Display) CLS (Contractor Logistics Support) for avionics and EW (Electronic Warfare)

MECTRON

• Receiving transfer of technology related to weapons integration Gripen NG
• Integration and delivery of the aircraft weapons systems
• Integration and delivery of radio systems for Data Links
• Maintenance of radars

ATECH

• Receiving transfer of technology related to support systems and training Gripen NG
• Adaptation and delivery of support systems and training

Akaer

• Receiving transfer of technology related to the design and industrialization of the structure of Gripen NG
• Design and analysis of structural units tension
• Industrialization of structural units

INBRA AEROSPACE

• Plays a central role in establishing SBTA
• Receiving transfer of technology related to the production of the Gripen NG structures
• Production of major structural units

DCTA - DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY AEROSPACE (AERO)

• Receiving transfer of technology related to requirements gathering and conceptual design of aircraft
• Cooperation with Saab and Embraer in studies of future capabilities

Novos caças da FAB terão telas feitas no Rio Grande do Sul | Poder Aéreo - Informação e Discussão sobre Aviação Militar e Civil


What about critical techs like AESA radar, IRST or engine? Is Brazil getting any ToT here? Are there any licence productions of the radar or engine planned in Brazil?

 

[atlssa]

What about critical techs like AESA radar, IRST or engine? Is Brazil getting any ToT here? Are there any licence productions of the radar or engine planned in Brazil?

Full ToT is a fairytale, and not just that... How Saab could grant ToT of items it doesn't possess?

 

[sancho]

Full ToT is a fairytale, and not just that... How Saab could grant ToT of items it doesn't possess?

Of course, but does Brazil get any ToT of the radar and engine, are there any contracts with Selex or GE about the production of parts in Brazil? The back end of the radar is based on the puls doppler radar of the Gripen C/D if't I'm not wrong.