Russian-Indian MTA project frozen — manufacturer

[Indiran Chandiran]

I'm still confused . The article in Jane's that I posted at once says that India has been chucked out of this JV & in the same breath states that :
"It has been frozen as a joint Russian-Indian project," he said.

Source: Russian-Indian MTA project frozen — manufacturer

Can some one please clarify whether we are still in JV? Are we still a part of the MTA or is UAC going it alone.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I'm still confused . The article in Jane's that I posted at once says that India has been chucked out of this JV & in the same breath states that :
"It has been frozen as a joint Russian-Indian project," he said.

Source: Russian-Indian MTA project frozen — manufacturer

Can some one please clarify whether we are still in JV? Are we still a part of the MTA or is UAC going it alone.

It is interesting that Janes has applied that spin (India has been "frozen out") but either way this project is a clear non-starter and this has been apparent for a few years now. The Russians take this approach with most JVs it enters into with India ie expects India to foot the bill but have minimal say in the final product whilst the Indian side, rightly, insists on getting the product it desires.

@PARIKRAMA we discussed a few weeks ago about alternatives to the MTA and that this project would slowly be wound up (at least as far as India was concerned).

Lol at HAL. Cant design an aircraft, and then complaint about the dominant partner. First develop the proto. After that change to western engine

HAL is hardly at fault, if the Russians won't agree to India's demands from the outset there is little chance of a reversal later down the road. HAL would be foolish to commit itself to a project where its user's requirements weren't being incorporated. What other entity/nation would agree to fund 50% of a product they don't want?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

It is interesting that Jane has applied that spin (India has been "frozen out") but either way this project is a clear non-starter and this has been apparent for a few years now. The Russians take this approach with most JVs it enters into with India ie expects India to foot the bill but have minimal say in the final product whilst the Indian side, rightly, insists on getting the product it desires.

@PARIKRAMA we discussed a few weeks ago about alternatives to the MTA and that this project would slowly be wound up (at least as far as India was concerned).


HAL is hardly at fault, if the Russians won't agree to India's demands from the outset there is little chance of a reversal later down the road. HAL would be foolish to commit itself to a project where its user's requirements weren't being incorporated. What other entity/nation would agree to fund 50% of a product they don't want?

By dropping HAL as partner it wont remain JV in true sense ...
Don know i am sensing a drop in our relationship with Russia with some interesting twists...

There seems to be some issue here which i dont know is bothering both India and Russia.. a bit distrust or some third party creating that distrust..

3rd instance of such a stuff.. Su30 in the initial time was not allowed to be flown by IAF.. FGFA same.. MTA Indian concerns not cared and just drop HAL as partner...

Either Russia is way too much confident or perhaps they believe that whatever we have raised as concern may not be correct...

Perhaps a special envoy or delegation visit every quarter is now needed to ensure we can build up the lost trust part.

Interesting times in coming decade.. Will C130XJ get this deal? Thats the million dollar question... If it does, the distrust will increase even more

 

[sathya]

MTA didn't materialise in both governments

Not a good deal ?

 

[Super Falcon]

In simple words russian saying we dont want to sell india anything

PAK FA
S 400
MTA

are best examples top of it putin body language speaks out alot

 

[Abingdonboy]

There seems to be some issue here which i dont know is bothering both India and Russia.. a bit distrust or some third party creating that distrust..

Well if that is the case it is not looking good for the FGFA at all (even though I am opimistic about it) given the nature of that contract being FAR more complex and FAR more of a strategic neccesity.

Interesting times in coming decade.. Will C130XJ get this deal? Thats the million dollar question... If it does, the distrust will increase even more

Well something needs to happen, my personal preferance would be the C-130XJ for the reasons we have discussed in the past, whether that comes to be is another matter. One thins is for sure, this isn't a luxery, the IAF needs a plane to replace its AN-132s and sooner rather than later.

In simple words russian saying we dont want to sell india anything

PAK FA
S 400
MTA

are best examples top of it putin body language speaks out alot

A country going through a recession can afford to throw away $50BN USD (minimum total value of the above deals)?

If this was the case then India wouldn't be doing anymore buisness with Russia but in the same trip Modi signed deals for the Ka-226T and talks are on for the S-400, more frigates, a deep sea submarine rescue platform etc etc

 

[Super Falcon]

Well if that is the case it is not looking good for the FGFA at all (even though I am opimistic about it) given the nature of that contract being FAR more complex and FAR more of a strategic neccesity.


Well something needs to happen, my personal preferance would be the C-130XJ for the reasons we have discussed in the past, whether that comes to be is another matter. One thins is for sure, this isn't a luxery, the IAF needs a plane to replace its AN-132s and sooner rather than later.


A country going through a recession can afford to throw away $50BN USD (minimum total value of the above deals)?

If this was the case then India wouldn't be doing anymore buisness with Russia but in the same trip Modi signed deals for the Ka-226T and talks are on for the S-400, more frigates, a deep sea submarine rescue platform etc etc

I tell u u wont get them now they remain only till talks

 

[Abingdonboy]

I tell u u wont get them now they remain only till talks

Still sour because the Su-35 fantasy never materialised? Don't you worry pal., India isn't some banana republic- it gets what it wants one way or another.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

It is interesting that Janes has applied that spin (India has been "frozen out") but either way this project is a clear non-starter and this has been apparent for a few years now. The Russians take this approach with most JVs it enters into with India ie expects India to foot the bill but have minimal say in the final product whilst the Indian side, rightly, insists on getting the product it desires.

@PARIKRAMA we discussed a few weeks ago about alternatives to the MTA and that this project would slowly be wound up (at least as far as India was concerned).


HAL is hardly at fault, if the Russians won't agree to India's demands from the outset there is little chance of a reversal later down the road. HAL would be foolish to commit itself to a project where its user's requirements weren't being incorporated. What other entity/nation would agree to fund 50% of a product they don't want?

Then HAL should be able to design one itself, which it cant. And the ruskies are telling, why are they adding the specifications now? Why wasnt it raised before? Were the HAL sleeping then?

 

[Super Falcon]

We will see it SU 35 still active where is mother of all deals which u wanted now became orphange of all deals with just 36 jets haha u got one way or other good bluffing urself

Still sour because the Su-35 fantasy never materialised? Don't you worry pal., India isn't some banana republic- it gets what it wants one way or another.

 

[Abingdonboy]

We will see it SU 35 still active where is mother of all deals which u wanted now became orphange of all deals with just 36 jets haha u got one way or other good bluffing urself

Come back in 3-4 years when >100 Rafales are in service/on order for the IAF and we will see who is laughing then.

Then HAL should be able to design one itself, which it cant. And the ruskies are telling, why are they adding the specifications now? Why wasnt it raised before? Were the HAL sleeping then?

HAL/IAF has been insisting on a change in the engine for years (I remember hearing about this in 2010/11)- the Russians have consistenly steam rolled over these concerns and failed to pay any attention.

The point about HAL should simply shut up because it can't build such an aircraft itself is entirely redundant as it is the CUSTOMER and PARTNER- it has a right to express its point of view and especially that of the user (IAF). If you are agreeing to fund 50% of the project you have at least earned that right, it is irrelevant what you can or can't do on your own, this is the basis for the entire buyer-seller relationship.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

Come back in 3-4 years when >100 Rafales are in service/on order for the IAF and we will see who is laughing then.


HAL/IAF has been insisting on a change in the engine for years (I remember hearing about this in 2010/11)- the Russians have consistenly steam rolled over these concerns and failed to pay any attention.

The point about HAL should simply shut up because it can't build such an aircraft itself is entirely redundant as it is the CUSTOMER and PARTNER- it has a right to express its point of view and especially that of the user (IAF). If you are agreeing to fund 50% of the project you have at least earned that right, it is irrelevant what you can or can't do on your own, this is the basis for the entire buyer-seller relationship.

On a tangent, why do we lack the potential to design an MTA on our own.If we could design the LCA ( admittedly with design inputs & consultancy from the French , Russians , the US & Israel, among others ), surely designing an MTA isn't rocket science .The vital parts namely the turbojet / turbofan can be sourced from abroad ( anyway, we are lacking in this area )

What are the difficulties you foresee if we go it alone ? Mind you , such a plane would have dual use - for the armed forces as well as domestic airlines & who knows ? An export market too ! with such possibilities, budgeting & investment shouldnt be a huge problem looking at the returns .

Your views@PARIKRAMA , @Abingdonboy

 

[Abingdonboy]

On a tangent, why do we lack the potential to design an MTA on our own.If we could design the LCA ( admittedly with design inputs & consultancy from the French , Russians , the US & Israel, among others ), surely designing an MTA isn't rocket science .The vital parts namely the turbojet / turbofan can be sourced from abroad ( anyway, we are lacking in this area )

What are the difficulties you foresee if we go it alone ? Mind you , such a plane would have dual use - for the armed forces as well as domestic airlines & who knows ? An export market too ! with such possibilities, budgeting & investment shouldnt be a huge problem looking at the returns .

Your views@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

The technological prowess now exists in India that much is certain. The issue is capacity- for a aircraft of this size an entirely different set of consdierations would need to be made, a fighter jet is distinctly different but naturally there wll be a commonality in some fundamental areas.

Even the powerplant need not be an issue if you agree to go for an off the shelf solution from the outset ie from P&W or RR. That said, I think the Kaveri could be built upon to power such a craft- there I've opened that can of worms

In that sense it would not be so different from the Embraer KC-390.


HAL/ADA/NAL is working on the Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) but I think, rightly, not too much focus is being given to it right now.

It's a huge shame the Saras project was so plagued with difficulty, it would have been a great foundation to build on. I think that project suffered like many others in the past few decades- improper managment, indifferent users, limited budget and a lack of clarity.


That said, this is the long term we are talking about (10-15 years at least) for the MTA alternative the IAF needs an off the shelf product.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

The technological prowess now exists in India that much is certain. The issue is capacity- for a aircraft of this size an entirely different set of consdierations would need to be made, a fighter jet is distinctly different but naturally there wll be a commonality in some fundamental areas.

Even the powerplant need not be an issue if you agree to go for an off the shelf solution from the outset ie from P&W or RR. That said, I think the Kaveri could be built upon to power such a craft- there I've opened that can of worms

In that sense it would not be so different from the Embraer KC-390.


HAL/ADA/NAL is working on the Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) but I think, rightly, not too much focus is being given to it right now.

It's a huge shame the Saras project was so plagued with difficulty, it would have been a great foundation to build on. I think that project suffered like many others in the past few decades- improper managment, indifferent users, limited budget and a lack of clarity.


That said, this is the long term we are talking about (10-15 years at least) for the MTA alternative the IAF needs an off the shelf product.

Thanks bro for the clarity.But pray, why 10-15 years of timeline ? Surely , if we do identify the powerplant & other vital component suppliers would the design & validation take that long ? Assuming it did , With the AN - 32 re furbished & functioning well , good enough for another 10-15 years , isn't it worth the gamble ?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

On a tangent, why do we lack the potential to design an MTA on our own.If we could design the LCA ( admittedly with design inputs & consultancy from the French , Russians , the US & Israel, among others ), surely designing an MTA isn't rocket science .The vital parts namely the turbojet / turbofan can be sourced from abroad ( anyway, we are lacking in this area )

What are the difficulties you foresee if we go it alone ? Mind you , such a plane would have dual use - for the armed forces as well as domestic airlines & who knows ? An export market too ! with such possibilities, budgeting & investment shouldnt be a huge problem looking at the returns .

Your views@PARIKRAMA , @Abingdonboy

We can do it in India but our finished product may not be the best suited product for us..We are looking at 100 An32 replacements... Its a huge number... Coupled with the fact that tried and tested previously designed majors know what will work at finer points and where can be small optimizations done to improve efficiency in load handling and performance.

For example look at c130 .. If you go their website you can find C130s XJ a platform they have build from C130J stripping it down inside out and improving performance massively and reducing costs..

Thats the power of experience.. Our first product itself will take time and mind you it wont be in a league of something like C130XJ.. We can try and build as it will help us over time with feedback but then next 50 years - 10 years development and 40 years service would be very time testing for all concerned parties - MOD, HAL, ADA, DRDO and end user IAF