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EagleEyes

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Russia Chooses Between $1.5 Billion and $2 Billion

Will Russia Honor Its Military-Technology Deals with China or with India?

China has appealed to Russia to include Pakistan in the list of countries with which Moscow has military-technological trade partnerships. Otherwise, China cannot fulfill its contract for the delivery to Pakistan of FC-1 fighter planes with Russian engines. If Russia refuses, it could complicate trade relations with China, which bring in $2 billion annually. Agreement, however, could threaten Russia's ties with India, which are worth more than $1.5 billion per year.
This week an official Chinese delegation will arrive in Moscow for negotiations. According to information obtained by Kommersant, the Chinese representatives will insist that Pakistan be included in the list of countries with which Russia has agreed to conduct military-technological trade. Otherwise, Beijing will have to default on its contract to deliver FC-1 fighter jets to Pakistan. According to the existing contract with Beijing, Russia has agreed to outfit Chinese fighter jets with Russian engines. Unfortunately for Beijing, however, according to an addendum to the contract, China does not have the right to re-export planes with Russian engines to a third country.

The FC-1 (also known as the Super-7), the first Chinese multifunction fighter jet, is oriented towards the international market. Chengdu Aircraft Industry began the development of the plane in the early 1990s. Around 50% of the costs ($75 million) were carried by Pakistan. China's National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation, Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company, Israel's IAI, and Russia's OKB-Mikoyan Engineering Center all took part in the project. The FC-1 made its first flight in August 2003.

China signed an agreement with Pakistan to deliver 150 FC-1 jets under the name JF-17 Thunder. But it was impossible to get the Russian engines for them. "Pakistan is not included in the list of countries with whom Russia has military-technological trade, meaning that the re-export of Russian military goods to Pakistan is not possible," said the Russian military producer Rosoboronexport. The Federal Military-Technology Trade Service confirmed to Kommersant that it does not intend to include Pakistan. Including Pakistan could harm relations with India, with which Russia has signed an agreement not to deliver military technology to Islamabad. The trade in military technology between Russia and India is worth more than $1.5 billion annually. The MiG corporation has also won a tender from the Indian government to deliver 126 fighter jets for a sum of $6.5 billion.

However, Beijing could also bring its weight to bear on Russia in terms of future contracts: talks are being held concerning Su-33 fighters (up to 48 planes for up to $2.5 billion), 15 Be-200 amphibious planes with "Sea Snake" targeting systems ($400 million), almost 40 Ka-29 transport helicopters and more than 20 Ka-31 helicopters (around $200 million), and four Zubr ("Bison") hydroplane boats (around $210 million).

The terms of the contract signed by Rosoboronexport and China in 2005 for the delivery of 100 RD-93 engines for FC-1 fighters, along with parts and service, for $267 million is also under strain for a different reason. Russia was supposed to deliver 15 engines by September, but only ten have been delivered so far: the Chinese have refused to accept the remaining five because of technical problems, and delivery has now been pushed back to December. China is additionally suggesting that that RD-93 be modernized and its thrust increased from 8.3 to 9 tons in order to pump up the tactical-technical specifications of the FC-1. Rosoboronexport has yet to make a decision, since the modified RD-93 has not been completely developed yet in Russia.

Experts in the field believe that China will not succeed in winning a concession from Russia on the question of re-export and that it will have to seek a compromise with Pakistan. "Russia will never give China the right to re-export its military technology to Pakistan, since that would threaten [Russia's] multibillion dollar contracts with India," believes Russia/CIS Observer editor Maksim Pyadushkin. "However, Beijing will never drop the FC-1 program. The most important thing for the Chinese now is to get RD-93 engines that they can take apart and copy in the future, like they do with everything in China." In the opinion of experts, Beijing will most likely offer Islamabad either another plane or, if worst comes to worse, return its money for the development of the FC-1.

http://www.kommersant.com/p717480/r_529/Russia_China_India_military/

Russia decides to supply Pakistan with fighter-aircraft engines

By Robert Karniol, Zuhai Air Show, China. Additional reporting by Ben Vogel, Janes.com Editor

PAKISTAN'S JF-17 light multirole fighter aircraft will be powered by Russian Klimov RD-93 engines - a substantial change in position for Russia which had previously resisted giving Pakistan access to the engine.

Directly contradicting an earlier Russian position, a senior Chinese aerospace official has for the first time publicly confirmed that the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 (FC-1) under development will be powered by the Russian engine. The new position was supported by Russian officials.

"Right now we are using the RD-93 [in prototypes] and it's Klimov who will do the series production [of the engine]. The engine will be exported to Pakistan," said Li Pei, development director at China's Chengdhu Aircraft Industry Group, which is leading the programme and also involved the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.

Klimov mentioned that the FC-1, China's version of the jointly developed aircraft, is still undergoing "performance flight tests".

Russian diplomatic and industry officials had previously stated without qualification that the RD-93 powering the FC-1 will not be provided to Islamabad either directly or through re-export. Klimov had reiterated this position only a day before Li's statement.

Moscow is thought to have hesitated over any deal involving provision of its military products to Pakistan because of concerns centred on its long-standing defence relationship with rival India.

Klimov, in particular, is involved in a Russian bid to supply New Delhi with 126 MiG-29 fighters.

Li reversed this view of the JF-17 programme when questioned by Jane's at a press briefing organised by Klimov during the China Air Show 2006. He was flanked on the podium by senior officials from both Klimov and the Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport.

"If we don't sell [Pakistan the RD-93 engines] then someone else will. It's just a reality," said Klimov Director General Alexander Vatagin, in a follow-up comment. Oleg Novikov, a senior official with Rosoborenexport, reinforced the change in position over export of the engine."The process to [arrange the provision to Pakistan of the RD-93] is on-going," he explained.

"The export licence will be granted provided it doesn't contravene the export laws of Russia or China."

The Pakistan Air Force earlier this year told Jane's that it had received firm assurances from China that the RD-93 issue will not prove a problem despite repeated Russian statements to the contrary.

http://jdin.janes.com/public/jdin/index.shtml
 
We have heard these kind of stories in the past and the ACM and China did say that it is BS. Why would china risk an export plane if they are not even sure to have foreign or Chinese engine? Why would Pakistan build a factory? Why would Klimov accept order of the first 100? Fabrications and typical Kymag crap post.
 
Its true that RD-93 will be equipped in the JF-17, Russia will earn the money from inside, and will talk out India, making excuses.

By the way Munir, did you read the whole article or just the title of the thread? I thought more than that it is just crap or ireleavant, i see the politics behind it.
 
In'shallah we'll get this engine or another one.

pakistan worked very hard to make this plane become a reality, and the only muslim country aswell, they helped themselves to move away from unrelaible people (U.S) no offense to americans but it's true...all we can do is pray and something good happens.

and also pakistan wouldn't work on a plane if it wasn't guranteed an engine, and knowing pakistan they most likely have a back-up plan...

plus, this is only a speculation so talks will take place and soon find out what going to happen :) but ws-13 should be ready anytime soon
 
"In the opinion of experts, Beijing will most likely offer Islamabad either another plane or, if worst comes to worse, return its money for the development of the FC-1"

Plus, this is only an opinion...:) the FC-1 can be delayed delivery until WS-13 is being build :)
 
In another article posted on the chineese thread it was mentioned that Russia wont piss of India by allwoing the re export of RD 93.

You might have to wait till Ws-13 is ready.
 
So far we have many claims.

1. Everything is fine and dandy and all this is just BS.
2. Russia wont piss off India for its $1.5Bn deals
3. Russia wont piss off China for its $2.0Bn deals
4. Russia is just playing the game and would make an excuse in the end
5. China will offer another plane (J-10).
6. China will return the money
7. China will complete the Ws-13
8. China is going to make Russia give us an even better version of the RD-93

Make your pick.
 
Russia is bound by an agreement to refrain from arm supplies to Pakistan. If Pakistan gets the RD-93s the OVTs will be out of running for the MRCA. How does the J-10 rate in comparision with the JF-17? Pakistan could opt for the J-10. The Chinese will have a RD-93 on the JF-17, the contracts are in place with ten deliveries accepted I believe.
 
I think that Russia will allow RD-93 to pakistan after negociation with China. right now, it just a political game and nothing else.

vnomad said:
Russia is bound by an agreement to refrain from arm supplies to Pakistan
what kind of agreement?? with which country??

vnomad said:
The WS-13 is for the J-10 I believe

No!
WS-10A will be use for J-10 and WS-13 is for JF-17.
 
what kind of agreement?? with which country??
With India ofcourse. Read the article again I think it mentions it too.
No!
WS-10A will be use for J-10 and WS-13 is for JF-17.
My mistake. I corrected it before reading your post though.
 
Webby is right. It is more about the politics here than any thing else. China would get the engines after Russia has delivered $6 billion bill to India ! Pakistan just needs to wait for some more time before JF-17 docks in thier hangers.
Kashif
 
i think we should replace the engine with a more powerful engine either russian or chinese or any other to increase payload and hardpoints.

i wanted to know that does jf-17 have multiple pylons??????
 
J-10 = WS-10A engine
FC-1 = WS-13 engine
There is a HUGE *** difference!

anyway, if the deal goes no where then i guess it would be better for Pakistan to just go for J-10 instead. although Pakistan might loss its quantity advantage as they would have for FC-1 but in return they will gain quality advantage over their enemy planes such as Mig-21, LCA, Mig-29 and etc....
 
J-10 = WS-10A engine
FC-1 = WS-13 engine
There is a HUGE *** difference!

anyway, if the deal goes no where then i guess it would be better for Pakistan to just go for J-10 instead. although Pakistan might loss its quantity advantage as they would have for FC-1 but in return they will gain quality advantage over their enemy planes such as Mig-21, LCA, Mig-29 and etc....
What advantage does the J-10 have over the MiG 29SMT?
 
found this piece of news on janes

Russia decides to supply Pakistan with fighter-aircraft engines Jane's Defence Industry 21:00
PAKISTAN'S JF-17 light multirole fighter aircraft will be powered by Russian Klimov RD-93 engines - a substantial change in position for Russia which had previously...
01-Nov-2006

http://jdin.janes.com/public/jdin/index.shtml

I can't get full article cause i'm not member :) but i just view headline
 
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