Russian Analyst: Russia should support US takeover of Pak nukes

[Communist]

Sure - how would you suggest we go about answering the questions you have posed

You know muse, in my opinion, the some (not all) siyasati hukmaran of Pakistan particularly since the time of Sharif used the political turmoil and vacuum to gain their personal interests doing enough harm to Pakistan's national integration and sovereignty, both of which are the most important foundational pillars of any nation state. The WoT and particularly the tie up with notorious US have already proved to be blunders. In the name of WoT, Pakistan in fact waged a war against her own existence. Thus when US drones attack in the NWFP regions destroying the poor tribal people's houses indiscriminately killing innocent people, they feel that their very enemy is Pakistan because in their direct view Pakistan appears to them. They lose their feeling of belongingness to Pakistan. But they see Islam as their medium of unity among them and Jihad as resistance. You just need to have a psycho-analytic study of those poor helpless people. And in course of time they become what they are not, they become extremists in the name of Talibanisation, which is an Afghanistan born concept.

The situation has become very worse now as they have become organized. It would have been easy for the state to improve things when they were unorganized. Now with a common sense, we can say, neither Mossad nor RAW is sitting idle just watching the situations. They have become active in the western front of Pakistan. Because, none can blame RAW as it is not directly working things right from the soil of India on the eastern border of Pakistan.

The only solution is to promote national integration first. Sometimes in order to promote unity in the family, one needs to expose the external enemy to convince the family members that without unity everyone's future is at stake.

 

[Communist]

but pakistan is highlighted in foreign countries mostly by the activities of the so called 'tribals'.............also the treaty with the talibans is a total failure for the pakistan govt's home policy..........they are taking advantages of the pakistani govt's peace treaty........and the publicity of this things are much more than the modernization of pakistan.......things are different to look at from inside pakistan and outside pakistan........the huge taliban rally and the support they get from the commoners create big news outside pakistan,and detoriates the prestige of pakistan infront of the world.....

From your own personal experience, you can understand how western media and particularly the Indian media under the guise of nationalism, selling cheap nationalist sentiments, demonise Communists whenever possible. Are you going to believe what Ananda Bazar Patrika says or what Bartaman says about CPI(M) or CPIM(L) activities in West Bengal? Same things are happening here also.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Ok so for all you guys who think that the main article was an Indian media propaganda here is 'The Russia News Service' of 'EIN News' (European Internet Network) reporting the same story

The Russia News Service - Media Monitoring Service by EIN News

Search for the headline 'Russia considers Pak a principal nuclear threat' under the 'Russia Business News' section.

I can't provide the link to the whole article as it requires registration.

 

[muse]

Communist


Do you have any real experience in FATA? Do you have any real experience in analysis of what Al-Qaida and talib are?

Sir, We disagree about drone attacks, but I am more than willing to grant that they have now become a politcal football = however; sir, you completely mistaken about why the ranks of the talib swell - These ranks swell because of the long term indoctrination and MONEY that is been spent there. Pakistan has since long tolerated islamist terrorists groups, it imagined that these were it's dogs and would do it's bidding, now it is clear they will do the bidding of those who spend the most.

Do yourself a favor and do a search on this forum - I have posted just such a study "Understanding Jihadi Networks" -- Please show more respect for these "tribals" - they know exactly what is going on, and if you imagine that AQ's version of Islam is Islam, then we have little to discuss and if you imagine that these are united by a sense as Muslims, you are indeed poorly informed - Pashtun society, if you know anything about it at all, will know what they think of the "cousin" let alone of their petty feuds - what we see instead is discipline and regimentation, we see manuals specially produced for their weapons -- all of this speaks to deep roots, excellent instructors, infrastructure, long study of the kinds of techniques, tactics and weaponry they are likely to encounter.

See, there are multifold problems here, lets examine them:

Internal destabilization -- this is the most important problem. Little by little Pakistan is being broken apart, with different systems of education and now law.

External/internal

US entrusted Afghanistan to Pakistan after the Jihad against the Soviet - Pakistan first failed to deliver concord among the Mujahid and it resulted in a civil war in which mor Afghans were killed than in the soviet invasion -- Khair, chance number two - new and improved Mujahideen in the shape of the talib -- another huge screw up as Russian, indian and iranian diplomacy and talib excesses ensured that international recognition would not be forthcoming.

In the present day, Russia, India, Iran and the US are using Pakistan;s internal weakness, it's lack of will to assert itself, against Pakistan itself. We all know who is financing the so called "nationalist" in B'stan (even the language we use to describe insurrectionist rebels in B'stan reveals our weakeness, instead of us being Pakistani Nationalists, we assign to to rebels the moniker, nationalists, we confer to them legitimacy)

As for the American, he cares about success, he will alwys deal with the successful differently from the way he deals with the will less failures - and who can blame him, he is after all out for the interests fo the US -- as for Pakistan, She does not know what her interests are -- honestly, what are Pakistan's interests? TO have a population divided ethnically?, religiously? by laws? What is Pakistan? ask any pakistani and get 170 million different answers --and Pakistan's enemies love this, those who would be it's friends find it difficult to be it's friends when even Pakistan refuses to be it's own best friend.

Politcally, Pakistan are a basket case. In the rest of the world term limits are the norm, a struggle won after years of awareness building of the inherent problems of corruption and nepotism without term limits - in Pakistan, a political party is dedicated to the sole cause of bringing to power to discredited scroundrels who have served two terms in office and therefore not elligible to staqnd for the same office - and a significant portion of the country came out in support of them

Socially - We have devolved into a tribalism - the laws which shape society and which gives us insight into the aspiration and world view of the society, poit toiwards tribalism -- tribal laws designed for triibal societies are given a religious veneer and we accept them as if divine, as we ourselves were divine - so what if we are a tribal ignorant bunch, we are divine - a sure blasphemy -- and look to the spirit of the laws we know are told is to be our fate, which lune would dare to describe these as humane?

In all of the problems outlined above, which would say should be our number one priority?? Would you agree that there would have to firsat be a pakistan so that we can deal with other problems?? If yes, then it is obvious we mkust deal with the internal problem first.

You have high lighted the problem of alliance with the US -- review the US-Pak relations thread, you will see that a signal has been sent that a debate over the alliance has now been initiated. But be rest assured our internal problem with Islamist terrorists will increase, not decrease. Why? Because it will suit our enemies to ensure that islamist terrorist become an even bigger threat, thereby giving justification to their action inside pakistan - Everybody will help a falling wall, fall.

These problems require a sober mind and a spirit that will not allow itself to become deviated from the task at hand -- and of course there is the great fun and jiy of calling the indian names, by telling him how many wars we have won and what we will do to him, in the meantime, he goes from success to success, and we from failure to failure.

And if you are for Islam, think what it will do to the world of Islam to lose Pakistan, imagine what it will do to their faith to see us happily break ourselves into pieces for the joy of telling the indian, the american, the israeli and the russian and the european to go to hell -- you decide which is sober, mature and responsible course.

 

[Communist]

Communist


Do you have any real experience in FATA? Do you have any real experience in analysis of what Al-Qaida and talib are?

Sir, We disagree about drone attacks, but I am more than willing to grant that they have now become a politcal football = however; sir, you completely mistaken about why the ranks of the talib swell - These ranks swell because of the long term indoctrination and MONEY that is been spent there. Pakistan has since long tolerated islamist terrorists groups, it imagined that these were it's dogs and would do it's bidding, now it is clear they will do the bidding of those who spend the most.

Do yourself a favor and do a search on this forum - I have posted just such a study "Understanding Jihadi Networks" -- Please show more respect for these "tribals" - they know exactly what is going on, and if you imagine that AQ's version of Islam is Islam, then we have little to discuss and if you imagine that these are united by a sense as Muslims, you are indeed poorly informed - Pashtun society, if you know anything about it at all, will know what they think of the "cousin" let alone of their petty feuds - what we see instead is discipline and regimentation, we see manuals specially produced for their weapons -- all of this speaks to deep roots, excellent instructors, infrastructure, long study of the kinds of techniques, tactics and weaponry they are likely to encounter.

See, there are multifold problems here, lets examine them:

Internal destabilization -- this is the most important problem. Little by little Pakistan is being broken apart, with different systems of education and now law.

External/internal

US entrusted Afghanistan to Pakistan after the Jihad against the Soviet - Pakistan first failed to deliver concord among the Mujahid and it resulted in a civil war in which mor Afghans were killed than in the soviet invasion -- Khair, chance number two - new and improved Mujahideen in the shape of the talib -- another huge screw up as Russian, indian and iranian diplomacy and talib excesses ensured that international recognition would not be forthcoming.

In the present day, Russia, India, Iran and the US are using Pakistan;s internal weakness, it's lack of will to assert itself, against Pakistan itself. We all know who is financing the so called "nationalist" in B'stan (even the language we use to describe insurrectionist rebels in B'stan reveals our weakeness, instead of us being Pakistani Nationalists, we assign to to rebels the moniker, nationalists, we confer to them legitimacy)

As for the American, he cares about success, he will alwys deal with the successful differently from the way he deals with the will less failures - and who can blame him, he is after all out for the interests fo the US -- as for Pakistan, She does not know what her interests are -- honestly, what are Pakistan's interests? TO have a population divided ethnically?, religiously? by laws? What is Pakistan? ask any pakistani and get 170 million different answers --and Pakistan's enemies love this, those who would be it's friends find it difficult to be it's friends when even Pakistan refuses to be it's own best friend.

Politcally, Pakistan are a basket case. In the rest of the world term limits are the norm, a struggle won after years of awareness building of the inherent problems of corruption and nepotism without term limits - in Pakistan, a political party is dedicated to the sole cause of bringing to power to discredited scroundrels who have served two terms in office and therefore not elligible to staqnd for the same office - and a significant portion of the country came out in support of them

Socially - We have devolved into a tribalism - the laws which shape society and which gives us insight into the aspiration and world view of the society, poit toiwards tribalism -- tribal laws designed for triibal societies are given a religious veneer and we accept them as if divine, as we ourselves were divine - so what if we are a tribal ignorant bunch, we are divine - a sure blasphemy -- and look to the spirit of the laws we know are told is to be our fate, which lune would dare to describe these as humane?

In all of the problems outlined above, which would say should be our number one priority?? Would you agree that there would have to firsat be a pakistan so that we can deal with other problems?? If yes, then it is obvious we mkust deal with the internal problem first.

You have high lighted the problem of alliance with the US -- review the US-Pak relations thread, you will see that a signal has been sent that a debate over the alliance has now been initiated. But be rest assured our internal problem with Islamist terrorists will increase, not decrease. Why? Because it will suit our enemies to ensure that islamist terrorist become an even bigger threat, thereby giving justification to their action inside pakistan - Everybody will help a falling wall, fall.

These problems require a sober mind and a spirit that will not allow itself to become deviated from the task at hand -- and of course there is the great fun and jiy of calling the indian names, by telling him how many wars we have won and what we will do to him, in the meantime, he goes from success to success, and we from failure to failure.

And if you are for Islam, think what it will do to the world of Islam to lose Pakistan, imagine what it will do to their faith to see us happily break ourselves into pieces for the joy of telling the indian, the american, the israeli and the russian and the european to go to hell -- you decide which is sober, mature and responsible course.

Dear Muse, I am very impressed by your deeper sense of understanding a society and knowledge about its people.

Muse, please do not misunderstand me, I did not tell anything disrespecting tribal people. I just wanted to discuss the facts. We all are tribals in fact in another sense, when we abide by our tribes' rules/customs. Actually there english terms are very confusing and misleading. For example, Romans used to call the Gothic people 'barbarians' meaning those who cannot speak Roman or Latin lingua franca, but now by the term Barbarian we convey a derogatory sense and disrespect. Yes I would have better called them natives or indigenous people, but then I would also have missed the connotation and denotation underlying the term.

I clearly stated the problem is not with any religion, it is with economy and culture. Islam, believe me, varies a lot along with different locations on earth and different cultures. Yes uniformity is there, but variations are also there. Because it is actually environment that makes a culture and a way of life of a particular group of people. That is why in Russia the architecture of the orthodox church is different from what we see in Italy. Likewise, the design of the Mosque of Turky is different from that of the Mosque of Indonesia. Both are Churches and both are Mosques.

Muse, Pakistan-Afghanistan border region was not from the beginning infested by so-called fundamentalism, you might have heard Abdul Gaffar Khan, who was called by Hindu congress members as Frontier Gandhi as he drew a huge support from the Afghan people to go for a non-violent Khilafat movement against the British Raj. Thus something happened there which turned into violence. Yes it was the Soviet invasion, and the America's creation of Taliban. America was more interested in countering the Soviet, than to liberate Afghanistan. We need to remember that. You have already said that that Mujahids later turned to be Talibs during the Civil War. And there must be no doubt that India and Israel were directly involved in the political turmoil to make things go against Pakistan. The process started right from that moment.

You have stated there are still multi dimensional approaches to Pakistan as a Nation state even among Pakistanis. That was why I told, Pakistan's first and foremost duty is to promote national integration by accomplishing uniformity as much as possible.

Yes you are right that Pakistan must deal with the internal problem first, but when the source of the internal problem itself is external, then how can you remove the internal problem without dealing with the external problem? Let me be clear, the external problem is RAW, MOSSAD and CIA. Just think when the AQ members or whoever uses sophisticated firearms, where do they get that? Particularly, where do they get the never-ending pile of ammunitions? To my knowledge, Pakistan does not produce such sophisticated bombs and weapons, then from where do they come to them?

Look, Islam is the ideology on which Pakistan was formed. So Islam cannot be questioned, if we want to see the existence of Pakistan. But Pakistan must focus on socialism at the same time to cope with her social problems.

 

[muse]

Communist

Pakistan must deal with the internal problem first, but when the source of the internal problem itself is external, then how can you remove the internal problem without dealing with the external problem? Let me be clear, the external problem is RAW, MOSSAD and CIA. Just think when the AQ members or whoever uses sophisticated firearms, where do they get that? Particularly, where do they get the never-ending pile of ammunitions? To my knowledge, Pakistan does not produce such sophisticated bombs and weapons, then from where do they come to them?

The source of Pakistan's internal problem are INTERNAL - not external. The well spring, the fountain head of the problem is a particular kind of ideology of Islam - you are exactly right that it is not islam - but you have not taken the step further to examine what then is it? it is a ideology, it claims to be islam, it is anything but . Are external intelligence agencies exploting our intrenal weakness? Does a bear go in the woods?

Pakistan has allowed this ideology to seep into the very fabric of the nation - it did not realize the extreme toxicity of the ideology. It is the equivalent of Khmer Rouge - it hopes to restructure society, to destroy and to beguin all over in what it imagines is some purity that it cannot possibly reproduce.

Pakistan has allowed the religious parties to ensure that this slow poison will enter society - as the Pakistani state continues to devolve, to fail, the people are confused, they are looking for solutions to their real everyday problems -- guess who has a ready made "divine" answer for them, whether they are willing to accept it or not, because these people come armed, which should be a clue but most Pakistanis seem to filter that bit out, curious or is it the effect of the slow poison?

You and I are asking where does the money come from, where do the arms come from? -- After 8 years, you think no one in ISI or the Pakistani government has asked these questions? And have they given you answers?? "Claims of "foreign hand" are just that "claims" - have they provided any information on tracking funds? or weapons? Let me ask you this, do you believe that nobody in ISI or IB or the entire Pakistani government, over the last 30 years, have bothereed to ask, how are these people being fed? Someone is buying groceries for these people or are living on will power?? Some one has to buy them drinking water? And no one in Pakistan noticed?? The food and water and weapons are coming from India? israel? -- Sir, we must be sober, it is an absolute requirement if you hope to argue credibly in a world full of Indians and israeli and American and Europeans and persons persuaded by reason.

The weapons used are primarily Chinese and Russian, well these are widely available for anyone whi can afford them -- but how is it getting to the militants?? through Afghanistan?? What then are we to make of claims of the Pakistani government that it has posted 112,000 soldiers on the afghan border?? Clearly a difficult border to patrol -- you should sometime visit the area and spend some time there, yes, the terrain is difcicult but if the Israeli and Indian and American and the martian can traverse it why can't the much vaunted fauj?? In the end, while some can claim victory of Indian, or Israeli or whatever intelligence service, what is unavoidable is that it is a failure of Pakistani security servcies, is that not so?? And I bring this to your attention so that a more careful argument can be crafted, not one so easily countered.

Sir, While it is true and factual that the Pakistani state tolerated islamist terrorists on it's soil and while it is true and correct that religious parties have exerted influence on the Pakistani government to do just this and allow this ideology to sep in to the national fabric, must this process not be reversed??

Some argue that Pakistan was created under the aupices of the ideology of Islam -- BS!! To these I would remind that Islam is not, was not, and will never be (by defintiion) a ideology, but rather is a religion of FAITH -- jamaati, maududi and Ikhwani may disagree, but is was them whoi referred to Pakistan as NAPAKISTAN, we will remind them of this inconvenient truth.

In Pakistan, today there is a council of Islamic ideology, you will be reminded that no such a body exists or has ever existed in other muslim countries or in Islamic history, the creation of a ideology of islam is a wholly modern, blasphemous notion - Allah's call to the FAITHFUL is not, was not and will never be ideology, rather it is a call, a invitation to union in love - allow not other substitutes and destroy the idols that confuse Muslims and those that hope to usurp islam the religion of Faith with a ideology of hate and eternal war.

 

[Torpedo]

No Pakistan is not extremist. India is Hindu extremist. India needs to be disarmed because it poses the serious threat to this South Asian subcontinent.

Yuhoooo...

I was right. Didn't I tell you you are getting better and better?

Look, now only 13th post to blame Hindu on totally unrelated topic.

Seems 'Hindu' was the first word you uttered as a child.

 

[AchtungSpitfire]

They have not been working against you since 1991 (When Soviet Union collapsed) They neither have the money nor the resources to actually damage America now.The only country which can do it is China which will not do it as Chinese Economy heavily depend on US Economy for at least few decades.

C'mon don't be naive. We just lost our staging base in Manas, Kyrgyzstan.
Now any agreement with other CAS will cost us exponentially more, so we're back into their sphere of influence. Pipeline politics aside, Ivan has a parallel Central Asian strategy and Afghanistan is only one area where our interests converge.

They aren't the toothless, drunken and beaten down Bear like in the 90's anymore.

 

[muse]

Sir, I'm not on the ground but I can give you two ancedotal pieces - we to dinner at friends tonight and I met a couple and their lovely girls from Pakistan at the dinner.

In conversation, it turned out, the couple, both architects from karachi who live ina area of Karachi called "defence", had decide to leave Pakistan and set themselves up in a business in Canada or the U.S.

While at the dinner, my wife got a call from her ister who also lives in Karachi, in a area called Clifton, it was early there and her children hadn't awakened yet so she wanted to speak to sister at length, it was nearly 40 minutes of complaints about talib and about fear and not knowing what to do, she said she knew Karachi would soon experience ethnic riots and a collapse of law and order but she could not afford to escape but wondered if we could help get her girls out.

Yes, sir, tonight, a single experience, anecdotal, given but imagne the plight of others who know whats coming their way and have no where to turn while the government types and the security forces point fingers at each other and bicker away.

 

[was]

OEE u indians/jackals don,t worry uncle sam has certainly also plans for india.
u guys come here to show crocodile tears.
and as for pakistan well pakistan existed for 60 despite challanges and inshallah will exist forever. so just stop dreaming of pakistan being disitegrated ect ect. heros born in crisis and come out stronger. u just worry about isi and try to stop it if u can!!

 

[omerhhh]

Taking pakistans nuclear weapons will be like a bullet to the heart.The only reason pakistan has not already been nuked by iNDIA IS BECAUSE WE HAVE THEM TOO and we must take care of this Taliban situation just like Srilanka is handeled the LTTE or they might infact get to the nukes.

 

[Patriot]

C'mon don't be naive. We just lost our staging base in Manas, Kyrgyzstan.
Now any agreement with other CAS will cost us exponentially more, so we're back into their sphere of influence. Pipeline politics aside, Ivan has a parallel Central Asian strategy and Afghanistan is only one area where our interests converge.

They aren't the toothless, drunken and beaten down Bear like in the 90's anymore.

Actually, it's America which started encircling Russia after Soviet Union demise.They have every right to do so.You've done more then enough damage to Russia and the bear will strike back but they can't do much damage as they don't have global influence like America.

 

[zeeshan809]

Improving Russia Pakistan Ties

Recent Russian gestures towards Pakistan show that the country wants to build a new and strong relationship with Pakistan. According to a recent published report in Pakistani media, Russia and China have offered to help Pakistan build new nuclear power plants under the supervision of IAEA. They would also assist Pakistan in seeking technical cooperation from the Nuclear Suppliers' Group on the pattern of the US-India deal.

Read the rest of the article at:
Wars of the World

 

[AchtungSpitfire]

Actually, it's America which started encircling Russia after Soviet Union demise.They have every right to do so.You've done more then enough damage to Russia and the bear will strike back but they can't do much damage as they don't have global influence like America.

No one is arguing whether they don't have the right to or not. The point you made was that Russia is benign which it is obviously not.

 

[afriend]

You can be beat my pet parrot..!!! Well i never said India is an extrimst nation, it is affected heavely by the Hindu extrimsts. Hindu is the end word for i believe 84 percent of Hindus in India, unlike the Muslims here, who have no concrete body to enforce /guide or lead people... The VHPs and the bajrang dal's have a very strong influence in the religious part of any fanatic hindu, like you.

So chances of extrimsm to influence or to take over India is more as they have a system laid out on the basis of religion.. which have been misused or misintpred or exploited by the peopls like Thackerey RSS etc. So i would say that there is a geninune case for worry by the world.

Dont confuse me for a hindu..!! I am a secular i am never a muslim nor a hindu.. but both..!!! If that is a tough nut that you cant crack... lemme make it simple for you, my mom is a muslim and dad is a hindu.. and i have heard stories of how hard they had to cop up with the preassures from their respective religions..!! But we are still living and breathing till now..so i have every reason to believe in the strength of the system in my country..!!!! And they never wanted me to be fanaticly religous and i am kinda pissed off by your statement.. since you where ignorant i think i thought i should clear the air..!!!!

So here is your nut...!! and now get back to your cage..!!!!.