Russia, China back India for greater role at UN

[Desertfalcon]

1. You are correct dabong1. "Countries" do not have friends, only people do. Had I been ordered by my government to fight the armed forces of the United Kingdom, I would not have hesitated to do so.

2. America never supported the Taliban. We may have supported, inadvertently, some who later may have joined the Taliban, but those who we supported became the "Northern Alliance" and later, the entire UIF. Ahmad Shah Massoud was "our" ally, murdered by Al Qaeda.

3. That you actually believe that America has a worse human rights record, that it has committed more mass murder than the Soviet Empire, is astounding. Where did you come up with such a incredulous notion? The communist in the Soviet Union murdered at least 25-30 MILLION of their own people. Communist in China murdered well over 100 MILLION of their own citizens. America is far from perfect, but we are generally thought of as a example of individual freedom, representative government, and free enterprise. We didn't get where we are by chicanery. We got there through developing over time, the strong economic and personal freedoms that are required to achieve what we have. I know you are proud of your country. Make no mistake as to the degree of pride Americans feel about theirs and their will in defending it.

 

[jetLi]

I don't think that China will back india

 

[xebex]

I don't think that China will back india

You got that right bro. China claim something and do something else. I really doubt china's support. Look at the US-India nuclear deal issue, china promised its support in the begining but at the final hour stood against it. However India pulled through as allways so we are cool.

 

[dabong1]

1. You are correct dabong1. "Countries" do not have friends, only people do. Had I been ordered by my government to fight the armed forces of the United Kingdom, I would not have hesitated to do so.

2. America never supported the Taliban. We may have supported, inadvertently, some who later may have joined the Taliban, but those who we supported became the "Northern Alliance" and later, the entire UIF. Ahmad Shah Massoud was "our" ally, murdered by Al Qaeda.

I think you will find it was India-Iran-Russia that where the main backers of the NA while pakistan and saudi backed the taliban with approval by the US govt.
Each had own motives with the pakistanis wanted security on there borders while the saudi wanted the version of islam spread in afghanistan and the US wanted the pipelines and with saudi and US intrests merging over iran....afer the taliban took control and refused a deal with the US we can see after that only the US taking a hostile posture toward the taliban.......9-11 only quickened the talibans downfall which would have come sooner or later anyway.

3. That you actually believe that America has a worse human rights record, that it has committed more mass murder than the Soviet Empire, is astounding. Where did you come up with such a incredulous notion? The communist in the Soviet Union murdered at least 25-30 MILLION of their

Shall we start with the US wiping out the native american poulation.

own people.

Are native american not your people?

Communist in China murdered well over 100 MILLION of their own citizens.

So theres some sort of judgement scale for killing people...if you kill your own people its really bad but if you kill others its okay!
The "killing your own" label is nothing but a excuse to make the killing of millions by US proxies seem excusable........we killed millions in vietnam and dropped more bombs then the both world wars put together buts its okay.....we didnt kill our own.

Using your logic Bin Ladins not that bad.....he didnt kill his own now did he.

 

[Desertfalcon]

1. No, native-Americans, at the time of the conflicts with them were not "our people". They were their own people, who viewed us as just another competing tribe along with all the other native tribes they fought.

2. We didn't "wipe out" native Americans. They are still very much here in the United States. There were plenty of ugly abuses on both sides, but the vast majority of native-American deaths came from disease which they had no protection from. No one did, but Europeans had developed immunity to those diseases.

3. Yes, there is a scale of judgment for killing people. That Sweden may have killed some Scandinavians 100 years ago is not the same as the mass genocide that the Nazi's and the Communist inflicted on humanity as an example. Shall we start with a comparison of our respective human rights record starting 350 years ago as we have with mine? See how unfair that can be? I know it is popular here to say that America is not really a democracy, or we don't really respect human rights, but that is rubbish. Compare any statistics on law, democratic processes, human rights, and America ranks at or near the top. Now I don't say that to boast. I know, because I know my countries history, that developing democratic institutions that respect human rights is a long and painful process, but that is no excuse for simply pointing the finger at America's past and then using it as cover for ignoring what is the reality today. Al Qaeda doesn't look so bad? Please! What a disgusting statement. The legacy of that organization is dead women and children everywhere they go.

 

[dabong1]

1. No, native-Americans, at the time of the conflicts with them were not "our people". They were their own people, who viewed us as just another competing tribe along with all the other native tribes they fought.

When did they become "your people"...was there some set date?.... or they still classed as non americans

2. We didn't "wipe out" native Americans. They are still very much here in the United States. There were plenty of ugly abuses on both sides, but the vast majority of native-American deaths came from disease which they had no protection from. No one did, but Europeans had developed immunity to those diseases.

Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples constituted genocide. David Cesarani states that "in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust". He quotes David E. Stannard, author of American Holocaust, who speaks of the "genocidal and racist horrors against the indigenous peoples that have been and are being perpetrated by many nations in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States ."

"plenty of ugly abuses on both sides".......can we say that about the jews and germans also just so it equals it out ,after all jews did kill germans

"deaths came from disease"...is that the same excuse nazis give about jewish deaths in german death camps

3. Yes, there is a scale of judgment for killing people. That Sweden may have killed some Scandinavians 100 years ago is not the same as the mass genocide that the Nazi's and the Communist inflicted on humanity as an example. Shall we start with a comparison of our respective human rights record starting 350 years ago as we have with mine? See how unfair that can be? I know it is popular here to say that America is not really a democracy, or we don't really respect human rights, but that is rubbish. Compare any statistics on law, democratic processes, human rights, and America ranks at or near the top. Now I don't say that to boast. I know, because I know my countries history, that developing democratic institutions that respect human rights is a long and painful process, but that is no excuse for simply pointing the finger at America's past and then using it as cover for ignoring what is the reality today.

20th Century

* Boxer Rebellion, 1899 - 1901
* Banana Wars:
o United States occupation of Nicaragua, 1907-1933
o United States occupation of Honduras, 1907-1933
o United States overthrow of Guatemalan Government, 1907-1933
o Intervention during Panamanian Election, 1908
o United States occupation of Cuba, 1912
o United States occupation of Veracruz, 1914
o United States occupation of Haiti, 1915-1934
o United States occupation of the Dominican Republic, 1917-1924
* Mexican Expedition, 1916 - 1917
o Battle of Ambros Nogales, 1918
* World War I, 1917 – 1918 (time span of U.S. involvement)
o European Theatre, 1917 - 1918
o First Battle of the Atlantic, 1917 - 1918
* Russian Revolution, 1918-1920 (time span of U.S. involvement)
o Polar Bear Expedition, 1918 - 1919
o American Expeditionary Force Siberia, Soviet Union, 1918 - 1920
* Yangtze Patrol, 1922-1927
* World War II, 1941 – 1945 (time span of U.S. involvement)
o Second Battle of the Atlantic, 1941 - 1945
o Pacific War, 1941 - 1945
o African Theatre, 1942 - 1943
o European Theatre, 1944 - 1945
* United States Intervention in Greek Election, 1947-1949
* Korean War, 1950 - 1953
* Operation PBFORTUNE, Guatemala, 1952
* Operation Ajax, US overthrow of Iranian Government, 1953
* Operation PBSUCCESS, Guatemala, 1954
* Operation Blue Bat, Lebanon, 1958
* Bay of Pigs Invasion, Cuba, 1961
* Operation Powerpack, Dominican Republic, 1965 - 1966
* United States Intervention at Panama Canal, 1958
* Vietnam War, 1962 - 1973 (time span of United States involvement)
o United States Occupation of Laos, 1962 - 1973
o Cambodian Civil War, 1969 - 1970
* United States Intervention at Panama Canal, 1964
* United States Overthrow of Chilean Government, 1964
* Operation Eagle Claw, Iran hostage crisis, 1980
* First Gulf of Sidra Incident, Libya, 1981
* Contra War, El Salvador, 1981-1990
* Occupation of Beirut, Lebanon, 1982-1984
* Invasion of Grenada, Grenada, 1983-1984
* Operation El Dorado Canyon, Libya, 1986
* Iran–Iraq War, 1987 - 1989
* Operation Just Cause, Panama 1989 - 1990
* Second Gulf of Sidra Incident, Libya, 1989
* Persian Gulf War, Iraq, 1991
o Operation Desert Shield, 1991
o Operation Desert Storm, 1991
* Somali Civil War, 1992 - 1994
o Operation Provide Relief, 1992
o Operation Restore Hope, 1992 - 1994
* Yugoslav wars, 1994 - 1999
o Bosnian Conflict, 1994 - 1995
o Kosovo Conflict, 1997 - 1999

21st Century

* War on Terrorism, 2001 - present
* Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan 2001 - present
* Operation Enduring Freedom - Philippines 2002 - present
* Operation Enduring Freedom - Horn of Africa 2002 - present
* Operation Iraqi Freedom, 2003 - present
* Waziristan War, 2004 - present
* War in Somalia, 2006 - present
* Operation Enduring Freedom - Trans Sahara 2007 - present


How many millions killed by the US..?

Al Qaeda doesn't look so bad? Please! What a disgusting statement. The legacy of that organization is dead women and children everywhere they go.

Whats disgusting is you thinking that by not killing "your own" somehow justify killing "others" well using your logic osama cant be that bad.

Killing woman and children is an american specialty.

 

[Draft]

Yes but the game will begin when India will start pushing America's and Israel's interests there in the UN.

India will start pushing its own interest rather than that of America or Israel. Till date India has not done anything for the US or Israel until it got something in return. India is not an ally of US but only a partner unlike Pakistan.

 

[insas91]

Originally Posted by Communist
Yes but the game will begin when India will start pushing America's and Israel's interests there in the UN.

So what is your point exactly? Only US allies make it to UNSC? All countries push their interests, and India will do that but as a member UNSC it will also have a say in others interest. And the same goes for other countries having a say in India's interests.

Kashmir is a bilateral issue. US wont interfere into this, because it would never want anger India. Why? Because India having asked by US voted twice against Iran. When it comes to WoT India is crucial. Afghanistan wont succed without India's help in rebuilding it. So its a give and take situation here.

 

[pmukherjee]

I dont know why I keep coming back to this site. Perhaps in the hope of finding some informative and meaningful debate and maybe knowledge. I am frustrated by the efforts of some who seem to have dedicated themselves to the art of deliberate disinformation and misinformation. The others spend all their time and energy in countering these few and very soon the thread degenerates into sheer rubbish. I say 'deliberate' as I cant believe anyone can be so ill informed. India as a proxy of USA!! Really incredible!! India has spent 90% of its life since independence from British imperialism believing that America is not a friend. It was open hostility from China and an unambiguously unfriendly USA that made India develop friendly relations with USSR. Now to have someone accuse India of being America's proxy! If any thing, it is USA which has veered closer to India and not the other way around. How that incredible event has come to pass? Any number of plausible reasons exists. I also observed someone taking about India's propaganda machine. By that I assume the Indian news media. One would have laughed if it had not been such a pathetic idea. India has a totally free news media which says just about what it feels like. Ofcourse, one does not expect those who have all their information from Government sources to understand this. Anyway, sincere wishes that this site lives up to its expectations. But that will happen only when these dedicated vested interests find some other vocation.

 

[Desertfalcon]

When did they become "your people"...was there some set date?.... or they still classed as non americans

It was not until the 1920's. Even then, Native-Americans can exercise a "state within a state" type of citizenship if they wish.

Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples constituted genocide. David Cesarani states that "in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust". He quotes David E. Stannard, author of American Holocaust, who speaks of the "genocidal and racist horrors against the indigenous peoples that have been and are being perpetrated by many nations in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States ."

He may have said that, but that hardly makes it true. First, what happened to native -Americans, while tragic, was not genocide. Genocide is the systematic murder of entire peoples. The continual conflict with native Americans lasted over 250 years and was military in nature. Even some of the most liberal of estimates, and they are almost impossible to prove, state that about 30-40,000 native Americans were killed in all the wars from 1620-1890. There were probably not much more than 1 million natives on the entire American land area, before we expanded across it, when the first settlers arrived at Jamestown. The most bloody massacre in our history was the last engagement between the United States and the natives. It happened at a place called Wounded Knee in 1890 and resulted in the killing of approximately 300 natives. Virtually every conflict between the United States and the natives were very small conflicts involving company or battalion size groups.

"plenty of ugly abuses on both sides".......can we say that about the jews and germans also just so it equals it out ,after all jews did kill germans.

If they were comparable you could, but the what the Nazis did was something else entirely.

"deaths came from disease"...is that the same excuse nazis give about jewish deaths in german death camps.

LoL, so your saying that in 1620-1890 we secretly knew about viruses and had developed vaccines for ourselves, long before history has recorded it, and it's all just a big secret? Are you kidding? LoL. No, that native Americans had no immunity to small pox and yellow fever is a well known fact, and was neither known, nor was the fault of, any European settler. No such science was understood at the time by the vast majority of doctors. The first effective vaccines were not developed until Louis Pasteur's research in the 1880's. BTW, the natives introduced strains of syphilis that devastated European populations.

20th Century

* Boxer Rebellion, 1899 - 1901
* Banana Wars:
o United States occupation of Nicaragua, 1907-1933
o United States occupation of Honduras, 1907-1933
o United States overthrow of Guatemalan Government, 1907-1933
o Intervention during Panamanian Election, 1908
o United States occupation of Cuba, 1912
o United States occupation of Veracruz, 1914
o United States occupation of Haiti, 1915-1934
o United States occupation of the Dominican Republic, 1917-1924
* Mexican Expedition, 1916 - 1917
o Battle of Ambros Nogales, 1918
* World War I, 1917 – 1918 (time span of U.S. involvement)
o European Theatre, 1917 - 1918
o First Battle of the Atlantic, 1917 - 1918
* Russian Revolution, 1918-1920 (time span of U.S. involvement)
o Polar Bear Expedition, 1918 - 1919
o American Expeditionary Force Siberia, Soviet Union, 1918 - 1920
* Yangtze Patrol, 1922-1927
* World War II, 1941 – 1945 (time span of U.S. involvement)
o Second Battle of the Atlantic, 1941 - 1945
o Pacific War, 1941 - 1945
o African Theatre, 1942 - 1943
o European Theatre, 1944 - 1945
* United States Intervention in Greek Election, 1947-1949
* Korean War, 1950 - 1953
* Operation PBFORTUNE, Guatemala, 1952
* Operation Ajax, US overthrow of Iranian Government, 1953
* Operation PBSUCCESS, Guatemala, 1954
* Operation Blue Bat, Lebanon, 1958
* Bay of Pigs Invasion, Cuba, 1961
* Operation Powerpack, Dominican Republic, 1965 - 1966
* United States Intervention at Panama Canal, 1958
* Vietnam War, 1962 - 1973 (time span of United States involvement)
o United States Occupation of Laos, 1962 - 1973
o Cambodian Civil War, 1969 - 1970
* United States Intervention at Panama Canal, 1964
* United States Overthrow of Chilean Government, 1964
* Operation Eagle Claw, Iran hostage crisis, 1980
* First Gulf of Sidra Incident, Libya, 1981
* Contra War, El Salvador, 1981-1990
* Occupation of Beirut, Lebanon, 1982-1984
* Invasion of Grenada, Grenada, 1983-1984
* Operation El Dorado Canyon, Libya, 1986
* Iran–Iraq War, 1987 - 1989
* Operation Just Cause, Panama 1989 - 1990
* Second Gulf of Sidra Incident, Libya, 1989
* Persian Gulf War, Iraq, 1991
o Operation Desert Shield, 1991
o Operation Desert Storm, 1991
* Somali Civil War, 1992 - 1994
o Operation Provide Relief, 1992
o Operation Restore Hope, 1992 - 1994
* Yugoslav wars, 1994 - 1999
o Bosnian Conflict, 1994 - 1995
o Kosovo Conflict, 1997 - 1999

21st Century

* War on Terrorism, 2001 - present
* Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan 2001 - present
* Operation Enduring Freedom - Philippines 2002 - present
* Operation Enduring Freedom - Horn of Africa 2002 - present
* Operation Iraqi Freedom, 2003 - present
* Waziristan War, 2004 - present
* War in Somalia, 2006 - present
* Operation Enduring Freedom - Trans Sahara 2007 - present


How many millions killed by the US..?

Oh, I see! So when other countries go to war it's justified, but when the USA does it's as evil as if the Nazis have done it. Is that it? So when your country kills people in a war, it's just the fact of war, but when my country does, it's genocide? Rubbish!

Now let's actually talk about GENOCIDE, and not just wars my country has fought in....

Soviet Union (Communists) 61,900,000
1917-1990
China (Communists) 35,200,000
1949-present
Germany (Nazi Third Reich) 20,900,000
1933-1945
China (Kuomintang) 10,400,000
1928-1949
Japan (Imperial-Fascist) 6,000,000
1936-1945
China (Communist Guerrillas) 3,500,000
1923-1948
Cambodia (Communists) 2,000,000
1975-1979
Turkey ("Young Turks") 1,900,000
1909-1917
Vietnam (Communists) 1,700,000
1945-present
North Korea (Communists) 1,700,000
1948-present
Poland (Communists) 1,600,000
1945-1948
Pakistan (Yahya Khan) 1,500,000
1971

http://econ161.berkeley.edu/TCEH/Slouch_power4.html

Hmmm...what country is missing form that list? Why it's America!!!

Whats disgusting is you thinking that by not killing "your own" somehow justify killing "others" well using your logic osama cant be that bad.

When we killed to free ourselves from the British..it was justified.

When we fought to end slavery...it was justified.

When we fought to end European control of the Americas...it was justified.

When we fought to defeat the German militarist in WW I who had murdered our civilians...it was justified.

When we fought to destroy Hitler and his murderous regime...it was justified.

When we fought to free the world of the communist gulag of the Soviet Empire...it was justified.

When we fought to end the ruthless rape of Kuwait and again to rid the region of the mass murderer Saddam Hussein...it was justified.

When we fight now to avenge the murder of over 3,000 of my countryman and eradicate the terrorist murderers who hide behind woman and children, while they are beating and raping, and beheading them,...it is justified.

 

[Communist]

@ Desertfalcon,

Where did you get that 'Genocide' list?

Did you forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Now please do not say it was a revenge for the Pearl Harbor incident. Japan did not kill American civilians. Personally I do not support Japan's position at that time. But America did a heinous crime on 6th August 1945 in the history of mankind and it will remain documented forever.


This is what America did killing more than 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki by the end of 1945.

Only a monster can do that, not a human being.

I do not know what your problem with communist regimes is. Thats your personal issue. But I think, you belong to the working class though of an upper level. You yourself do not represent the corporate owners. Communists are with the working class. How can one betray his own class? Or may be you do not believe in class.

 

[Communist]

@ Desertfalcon,

I think America first urgently needs to wash her own blood stained hands before pointing fingers at communists.

 

[Desertfalcon]

Are you actually comparing the bombing of an enemy country with Genocide? Are you kidding? Do you have any idea what kinds of casualties my country would have suffered in an invasion of the Japanese home islands? Do you have any idea how many Japanese we would have had to kill if we had to fight for every Japanese village? Do you know how many Chinese civilians and others the Japanese murdered? Have you ever heard of the rape of Nanking? We did not choose war with them. THEY chose war with us. You cannot attack a country, then when you are bombed in reprisal, complain about it. They could have surrendered at any time before Hiroshima. They chose not to. They could have surrendered any time before Nagasaki. They chose not to. Our President, Abraham Lincoln was once asked if he should feel guilty for all the deaths he had caused in fighting the Civil War. He said in response...

"War is the remedy that our enemy has chosen. Let him have his fill of it!"

My list on genocide has a link just below it you can click on.

 

[Jako]

But falcon sir,using nukes to kill thousands and handicapping the future generations,is the biggest crime committed by any country till today........your words are true,but nuking a country can never be a sane option........

 

[Communist]

My list on genocide has a link just below it you can click on.

Now I understand why you hold such opinion and why you hate communists.

I know someone is an orthodox Christian and thats why she hates communist ideology, she hates communist ideology because she is an orthodox Christian.

I know the Rape of Nanking and other incidents, and thats why I do not support the former Japanese imperialist regime.

As for genocide, should we talk about the dirty assassinations by Klu Klux Klan?

I think, we should see this video clip: