Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

[TaimiKhan]

I did google n didn't find them!!! Nyways gud for u.

Here, read the below link, it is Year Book 2004-05 of the Defence Production Ministry and under DESTO see the details of the Wind Tunnel thing, its not for aircrafts but munitions.

http://202.83.164.26/wps/wcm/connec...8b76279a470f1/YEARBOOK2004-05.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

Similar GIK has Super Sonic Wind Tunnel Testing facility:

http://www.giki.edu.pk/go/fme_asialink/reaserch/inresearchatgiki.php

Institute of Space Technologies, Islamabad has both Subsonic as well as Super Sonic wind tunnel testing faclity.

KRL has such facilities.

Here one of your Indian sources telling about the wind tunnel testing facility.

TRISHUL: Pakistan’s Ballistic Missile Arsenal Detailed

AERO has wind tunnel testing facility, that i am sure about.

Even at a PAF facility in Karachi, such wind tunnel testing equipment has been installed.

Here further read this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/48926-wind-tunnels.html

I have no idea why are the Indians so much after the Pakistan's wind tunnel testing facilities, but i can take a wild guess that why they are after such things so much.

Hope no more asking of such stupid and superiority complex showing questions are asked.

We have such facilities that is why we are making missiles after missiles.

 

[TaimiKhan]

China would do the same if you reverse the situation.
$$$ is all that matters.
Designing a successful jet engine is one of the most difficult projects, but the success is well worth it. Whether this decision turns out to be a boon for China's aviation industry, we will have to find out.

Yeah, but initially the Russians should not have then agreed, once agreed should have honored it and fair fight should have been done, but as its $$$s people leave ethics.

No doubt about complexity in making good jet engines, but personally from what i have read and heard, its 1-2 or at the most 3 years after which Chinese would be producing good enough quality engines, not may be of western quality, but still as per their past practices, better and good ones and with time they will improve further.

J-11s pics are coming out equipped with WS-10 engines, a prototype of FC-1/JF-17 has done taxi runs way back in March of this year and hopefully by now would have taken to the air also, Chinese forums and people with good inside knowledge have stated that majority of the quality problems have been solved and in few months time the final production will start, similarly they are now taking help of Ukrainians as well as Russians in making and perfecting their engines, thus for Chinese its not much of the journey left to come out with their own engines, and we hope they do so very soon.

 

[ptldM3]

oh Dear!

Lets talk about quality - if you compare our F-7 PGs (Chinese built) to your Migs, both are based on same air frame etc.
Why is that hardly any crash on F-7s but 500 IAF migs crashed?? Yes 500, not 5 neither 50 but500.

It's been reported that around half of all Mig-21 crashes were due to pilot error, mostly because of lack of trainers, but other factors besides the aircraft's design play a role, and those could be:

* Poor maintanance
* pilot error
* Anomolies such as bird strikes
* poor wheather

Also according to Rupeenew (yes not the most reliable new) the Russian airforce crash rate for the Mig-21 was five times less then that of the Indian airforce, if this is true then i clearly it isn't the aircraft's fault for the crashes.

2 x Su 30s crashed and the whole fleet was grounded. there are plenty other examples but i think above should suffice.

2 crashes in 13 years is outstanding esspecially when you consider one was due to pilot error.

In comparison the F-15 see's about 3.6 class A accidents per year. To put it blatantly your comment about the 2 SU-30mki crashes just backfired.

http://www.afsc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-080114-062.pdf

Quality speaks for itself - no need to post one liners without hard facts unless it helps sleep at night.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and use some critical thinking skills before you come to conclusions without looking at all sides or exploring alternative possiblities.

If the JF-17 wasn't as good as MIG 29, then the Russians wouldn't feel threatened? Their arms market is small and JF-17 will only make it smaller.

Maybe GE or PW can step in for engines.....screw Russia.

I'm not going to get into an argument of who is better but speaking strictly from a price perspective the JF-17 can be a threat for anyone whether it be Mig-29, F-16, or Rafale.

 

[Agent X]

Kinda too late for that now 1300-1500 engines have been approved for China (and its customers)

China gonna make 1500 jf 17.??? china doesn't seems interested in fc 1 pakistan will buy maximum 250 "just my guess" i wonder who's gonna buy rest.

 

[Guynextdoor]

Here, read the below link, it is Year Book 2004-05 of the Defence Production Ministry and under DESTO see the details of the Wind Tunnel thing, its not for aircrafts but munitions.

http://202.83.164.26/wps/wcm/connec...8b76279a470f1/YEARBOOK2004-05.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

Similar GIK has Super Sonic Wind Tunnel Testing facility:

http://www.giki.edu.pk/go/fme_asialink/reaserch/inresearchatgiki.php

Institute of Space Technologies, Islamabad has both Subsonic as well as Super Sonic wind tunnel testing faclity.

KRL has such facilities.

Here one of your Indian sources telling about the wind tunnel testing facility.

TRISHUL: Pakistan’s Ballistic Missile Arsenal Detailed

AERO has wind tunnel testing facility, that i am sure about.

Even at a PAF facility in Karachi, such wind tunnel testing equipment has been installed.

Here further read this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/48926-wind-tunnels.html

I have no idea why are the Indians so much after the Pakistan's wind tunnel testing facilities, but i can take a wild guess that why they are after such things so much.

Hope no more asking of such stupid and superiority complex showing questions are asked.

We have such facilities that is why we are making missiles after missiles.

Ok good, very very good. Fact is that this didn't come up before, It stumps u coz it's really the first step towards aeronautics right? U'll get an idea of a country's capabilities by looking at their geound and lab faciliites.

 

[Avatar]

Yeah, but initially the Russians should not have then agreed, once agreed should have honored it and fair fight should have been done, but as its $$$s people leave ethics.

No doubt about complexity in making good jet engines, but personally from what i have read and heard, its 1-2 or at the most 3 years after which Chinese would be producing good enough quality engines, not may be of western quality, but still as per their past practices, better and good ones and with time they will improve further.

J-11s pics are coming out equipped with WS-10 engines, a prototype of FC-1/JF-17 has done taxi runs way back in March of this year and hopefully by now would have taken to the air also, Chinese forums and people with good inside knowledge have stated that majority of the quality problems have been solved and in few months time the final production will start, similarly they are now taking help of Ukrainians as well as Russians in making and perfecting their engines, thus for Chinese its not much of the journey left to come out with their own engines, and we hope they do so very soon.

Lets say the Chinese engines are ready in 3 years and there are currently enough Russian engines for 100 JF-17s. Now how long would it take to produce the initial 100 JF-17s ? If that's less than 3 years, then the difference is the duration the production lines will be halted unless there's an alternate solution.

Other than that, JF-17 offers to other nations would also be delayed.
They have gone back on their word but they might just be able to sell more Migs and Su's, which is always good for business.

I hope that both India and China become self reliant in jet engines this decade.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

China gonna make 1500 jf 17.??? china doesn't seems interested in fc 1 pakistan will buy maximum 250 "just my guess" i wonder who's gonna buy rest.

I am sure we will have no problem with extra spares

 

[Imran Khan]

China gonna make 1500 jf 17.??? china doesn't seems interested in fc 1 pakistan will buy maximum 250 "just my guess" i wonder who's gonna buy rest.

bro you seems to be new in this

look at the long list

f-7 Number built 2,400+
j-5 Number built 1,820+
A-5 Number built ≈1,000

SO why not 1500 engines for jf-17 fc-1??????? its history of china made air craft they are low cost and bulit much much.

 

[karan.1970]

Now that the flurry of comments seems to have died down after the initial burst, lets understand the impact of this.. Does this apply to new orders post initial 150 or to every thing not yet delivered??

If the initial 150 engines have already reached China, then that should be good for 100-120 aircrafts. If I remember right, PAF has about 20 or so of these at this time and can produce 20-25 per year. So they should be good for 3 years atleast.. Enough time to find a replacement, even if there is no plan B at this time..

The problem will be if the initial 150 engines are not yet delivered and this step of Russia impacts that too...

Does any one have dope on that??

 

[limp]

At least this news proves one thing.......The immature and low quality Chinese and Pakistani aircraft industry is giving hard time to some of the best Air plane manufacturer in the world......

Yeah the $10 Million price tag doesn't hurt.

The engines will be coming.Even if the Russians contest the sale to countries like Egypt the Russians would eventually come around to providing the engines for the PAF JF-17.As far as i know they don't have any plans to sell the Mig 29/35 to PaK, they'd love to make $$$ out of engine sales.

 

[BJlaowai]

The cheapest multi-role fighter plane available on the international market right now is MiG-29. Lots of developing countries looking for some decent planes for their airforces will go for Mig-29 for making up the numbers. Most of these countries really do not have any significant secruity threat in the near future. In this situation, if someone comes up with a offer of cheaper plane, these countries will go for it, irrespective of relative technical advantages/disadvantages between the planes. Looking at the possible client list countries for FC-1, its very clear that MiG-29 is facing competittion on price and not on quality. The worst part for the Russians is that, they are facing a threat for this market by a plane using their own engines. This is a right move by the Russians to safeguard their market.

 

[Sparten80]

Without offending anyone, Ive never been a big fan of Russian equipment, avionics, their aerospace industry and in particular their engines. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that we've squarred off against Russian/Soviet aircraft in previous wars and in Afghanistan when the PAF shot down several intruding Soviet planes. But, more pointedly, even in the prototype days of the first batch of F-17's, the Russian engines where problematic, bulky and not efficient. I say this despite the fact, that I do think its high time, that Pakistan and Russia usher in a new era of friendship with the changing dynamics of the global world as I feel both countries have much to offer each other and share many commonalities.

To be honest, I hope the aircrafts dont have Russian engines in them at all, I would go as far as saying that I'd even prefer the older J-79's or even the old Dassault Atlas engines in them over the Russian one's; despite them being Turbojet engines. Granted, the Russian industry has come along way and has made considerable strides to make up the gap as they do have some interesting designs in the pipelines; but so far, in actual performance and combat situations, their performance have been dismal. Furtermore, when one can built indigenous models of a comparable engine model or have access to Western equipment, i would opt for the those instead. This is in the better interest of the F-17 program overall and will be in the better interest of Pakistan and China. Also, if this article is true, what it does tell us is that the Russians are not a reliable partner in the aircraft industry, and the repercussions of such a move should be felt by them for quite some time as the Aerospace/Aircraft manufacturing sector of China and also that of Pakistan is going full steam ahead. This will definately leave a bad precedent.

Furthermore, this move will help drive the point home to both China and Pakistan. Focus on indigenization, TOT and that work on the Chinese engine needs to be done in earnest and to not rely on anyone else for supplies if possible.

 

[limp]

^^So instead of Russian engines you would prefer untested/unproven chinese engines.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Ok. that mean future Jf-17s won't have black smoke problem and they will be using Chinese engines with 10% more thrust , Good for second batch of JF-17s and being Pakistan a buyer Chinese will mature WS engine soon.

 

[praveen007]

@ penumbra. as 4 jf-17 vs mig-29. mig is the cheepest avilable mmrca avilable today. and jf-17 is not in its league.