Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

[TaimiKhan]

In the first post of the thread:

"I am not against the re-export of individual technologies, but it should be done in agreement with the producers of finished-product, so that this re-export does not damage their interests," Pogosyan told Kommersant.

This sentence has the whole crux, Russia just wants to ban the engine where its own interest are, but if renegotiated taking into consideration the re-export conditions, sale would continue.

100 engines delivered, more then enough for now to keep the batch production of JF-17 rolling, and if deal negotiated for just PAF JF-17s, it will be done, but for export to others problems would arise.

But i do hope by next year the WS-13 engine picture would be clear.

 

[indushek]

Whats happening here just because Russia denied China engines that too for business purposes lot of my fellow people are jumping up with joy. Guys this is purely a business decision , where do India Pakistan come in to this. Accepted that this is a setback for JF-17 but they will go for other options. Look in each and every thread of LCA we were trying to explain to them how advanced it was for us and the roadblocks and etc we faced during it, i think some are trying to return the favour but please maintain dignity this amounts to pure gloating on someone else's problems.

 

[indushek]

Russians are going to do a flip flop again.

Two factors can be speculated, and both fall short

1) India doesn't want this deal. China is a bigger buyer of Russian hardware than India and we all know that if Putin himself came and installed the engines on the JF-17, India will still not ditch the Russians.

2) Competition? JF-17 vs Mig 29 has been previously unheard of. Moreover they only stand to lose a sale of the engines as the WS-13 is just about to hit the market. This could've worked when they first did this flip flop 5 years ago. The plane would sell - for cheaper!

Russians will try to drive up the costs by a tad. But won't stop it completely.

Not to mention that the Russians plan to sell plenty more Engines to Chinese and half of China's motivation with them is to re-export.

Remember the order is for a total of 500 RD-93 engines, not just the 100 for Pakistan.

I think u have explained the whole point perfectly though i think ur remarks are harsh about my country.

 

[Areesh]

Whats happening here just because Russia denied China engines that too for business purposes lot of my fellow people are jumping up with joy. Guys this is purely a business decision , where do India Pakistan come in to this. Accepted that this is a setback for JF-17 but they will go for other options. Look in each and every thread of LCA we were trying to explain to them how advanced it was for us and the roadblocks and etc we faced during it, i think some are trying to return the favour but please maintain dignity this amounts to pure gloating on someone else's problems.

Nice post dear.

 

[Jazzbot]

well i must say a good decision by Russia. Yes I mean it.

1) It will remove the tiny bit dependence of china at russia, China now knows what russia can do in time of need, so china will look forward to more self reliance.

2) Same goes with Pakistan. This isn't happened with us for first time, US blocked weapon sale to us, as a result, today we have Al-Khalid, JF-17, Missile Tech and Nuks. History is repeating it self, and we'll go deep into self reliance. History proved that whenever we've face sanctions in acquiring a thing, we came up strongly with our own solution with the help of ever lasting help of china. We'll crack the code once again..

3) To me, this action from russia wasn't to damage supply of JF-17 but to stop china from earning Egyptian orders.. WS-13 is already in progress and tested.. If they can hit Satellites with missile they can produce a good engine also, just matter of time. Let the things get matured with time..

4) I think in the end, these kind of things, helps both china and Pakistan to push more money, efforts, RnD and resources towards their own indigenous projects, there are hell lots of these projects going on.. The funds saved from these russian deals will surely moved toward these projects and thus they'll be boosted to more perfection..


Thanks Russia for this provokation, I am smelling new Chinese Engine getting matured and coming our way..

 

[Awesome]

I think u have explained the whole point perfectly though i think ur remarks are harsh about my country.

My apologies, for any offence was unintended.

 

[ejaz007]

Last time it was Mr. Putin who himself signed the decree and authorized the sale of the engines. Is their any new development regarding blocking of the sale or is it just that some kids are taking out their anger on each other.

No links have been provided suggesting any new development.

 

[indushek]

My apologies, for any offence was unintended.

No problem but as certain members have pointed out may be this could be helpful in a way since, by this wakeup call ur establishment might get interested in developing indigenous capabilities in the future which could be helpful for your country too. This again depends on your establishments intent.

 

[marcos98]

http://rt.com/prime-time/2010-07-05/china-airplanes-copies-russia.html#(watch the video on this link....)
Made-in-China airplanes may undermine sales of Russian high quality jets
Russian and Chinese weapons manufacturers are clashing head on within the international arms market as China’s new fighter jet seems to be a cheaper imitation of the Russian original.
The argument is threatening to put on hold a multi-billion-dollar engines sale contract between the countries concerning the delivery of some hundreds Russian-made RD-93 engines needed for Chinese-Pakistani fighter jets called the FC-1.

Read more

The deal is facing opposition from Russian aircraft manufacturers, such as Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi aviation holding, who said that the FC-1 is extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29. Pogosyan claimed that FC-1 is a direct competitor to Russia's MiG-29 and the deal would incur losses for the Russian manufacturers.

A source quoted by the Kommersant newspaper said there are significant price differences keeping the US$10-million Chinese jets much cheaper than a $35-million Russian MiG-29.

Also, representatives from Russian Defense Export said that there was nothing wrong with re-exporting, which is in accordance with the decision of the Russian government. They added that there is no law that says there should be any agreement with Russian manufacturers citing the example of RD-33 that was re-exported to Egypt and was given permission by the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation in 2007. These engines are sold to Bangladesh, Algeria and Saudi Arabia.

Ruslan Pukhov, the member of the Defense Ministry Public Council, disagrees with the officials.

“If we follow this line of thinking, it will be very difficult to explain to a country like China that, after all these years of re-exporting, Russian-made engines are all of a sudden going to stop and make it a little bit more difficult,” Pukhov told RT.

 

[Joe Shearer]

My apologies, for any offence was unintended.

Dear Sir,

Confucius never said this:

'Satam Vado, Ma Likho'.

Say what you want, a hundred times over; once you write it down, the damage is permanent.

Sincerely,

 

[Manticore]

in the past, before we decided on f16s, mig29s and mirage 2000 were also evaluated , which fell short of f16s.

our jf17 blk1 is superior to old f16s so its natural that they are easily comparable to newer mirage2000/mig29s etc

based on the number of planes we will produce, the number of engines are enough to keep us busy and rolling for quite some time

jf17 will not be our frontline fighter -- it will take care of your mig29s/mirages/mig21 etc -- no need to get j10s to destroy them , our jf17 can do that very easily-- give it a couple of years


[we can also use alot of smilies ]

 

[illuminatidinesh]

In the first post of the thread:

"I am not against the re-export of individual technologies, but it should be done in agreement with the producers of finished-product, so that this re-export does not damage their interests," Pogosyan told Kommersant.

This sentence has the whole crux, Russia just wants to ban the engine where its own interest are, but if renegotiated taking into consideration the re-export conditions, sale would continue.

100 engines delivered, more then enough for now to keep the batch production of JF-17 rolling, and if deal negotiated for just PAF JF-17s, it will be done, but for export to others problems would arise.

But i do hope by next year the WS-13 engine picture would be clear.

I think members learn to read carefully before posting.... If U dont know where to look , at least search for members like Tami what they are saying.....

 

[illuminatidinesh]

in the past, before we decided on f16s, mig29s and mirage 2000 were also evaluated , which fell short of f16s.

our jf17 blk1 is superior to old f16s so its natural that they are easily comparable to newer mirage2000/mig29s etc

based on the number of planes we will produce, the number of engines are enough to keep us busy and rolling for quite some time

jf17 will not be our frontline fighter -- it will take care of your mig29s/mirages/mig21 etc -- no need to get j10s to destroy them , our jf17 can do that very easily-- give it a couple of years


[we can also use alot of smilies ]

All the best then....

 

[RescueRanger]

Is this your logic.. i cant believe that, Let me throw light, quality is obtained at first place during R&D done in JAPAN.. during manufacturing only specifications are to be followed++ a place where they could manufacture a product with Least labor and manufacturing charges..i.e. CHINA.

Dear you have much to learn...

 

[dingyibvs]

Is this your logic.. i cant believe that, Let me throw light, quality is obtained at first place during R&D done in JAPAN.. during manufacturing only specifications are to be followed++ a place where they could manufacture a product with Least labor and manufacturing charges..i.e. CHINA.

Uh...quality is determined during manufacturing. It's like the WS-10's, the design was fine, but the manufacturing had quality issues which was why the fleet of J-11B's were grounded until late last year.

As for this news, it's kind of puzzling. The WS-13 is only lacking flight testing now, it makes little sense for Russia to cancel the RD-93 orders. It MAY delay JF-17 exports by a year or two, but it'll only speed up China's pursuit of self-reliance and in turn hurt Russia's exporting efforts in the long run. Seems to be a move made of short-sightedness, a characteristic that plagues democratic nations ruled by businessmen who are out to get the max dollars and get them NOW.

Really reminds me of all the western companies relocating to China and transferring their technologies. Sure they can make a lot of money now, but eventually as China's technical skills are raised to their levels with their help, they'll stand little chance to compete further. Yet they still do it, and the western governments are helpless to stop it due to powerful lobbyist.