Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

[zagahaga]

^ nope.

Sukhoi's are heavy series while mig's are between light and medium weight series.


Yes mig have lot of drawbacks like depending on ground control, just 700 km range, mega expansive and limited or no ground attack ability. But new upgrades take out this drawbacks and make it potent fighter

weird? f 15 is considered to be a heavy fighter how can mig 29 not be

 

[SQ8]

If the sale is blocked the chinese may have options to force it open as before
China uses an equally large number of sukhoi fighters as India, and orders large numbers of Al-31's for its MKK and MK2 fleets which is still a substantial cash cow for Russia.
Equating the Mig-29 with the Thunder makes little sense, If countries can afford the Mig-29 they wont buy the Thunder, the newer mig packs more punch pound for pound and the russians offer a tested weapons package unlike the thunder which is a mix and match.
So, like before this is just the Indian lobby at its best (we wont order more sukhoi's and may not even consider the MIG-35 as a contender in MRCA unless you stop selling engines to Pakistan via china or bulgaria or whatever), and like before, the statements will be changed later since China too holds a lobby(albeit a quieter one compared to the Indians).

What can be deduced is that the Indians are prepared to sell their souls lobbying to ensure that any future conflict with Pakistan is a through walkover with minimal losses to them and a complete end of the Pakistani war machine.

 

[deckingraj]

If the sale is blocked the chinese may have options to force it open as before
China uses an equally large number of sukhoi fighters as India, and orders large numbers of Al-31's for its MKK and MK2 fleets which is still a substantial cash cow for Russia.
Equating the Mig-29 with the Thunder makes little sense, If countries can afford the Mig-29 they wont buy the Thunder, the newer mig packs more punch pound for pound and the russians offer a tested weapons package unlike the thunder which is a mix and match.
So, like before this is just the Indian lobby at its best (we wont order more sukhoi's and may not even consider the MIG-35 as a contender in MRCA unless you stop selling engines to Pakistan via china or bulgaria or whatever), and like before, the statements will be changed later since China too holds a lobby(albeit a quieter one compared to the Indians).

Well if you are comparing Indian Lobby with Chinese Lobby w.r.t Russia then i am afraid we win....Having said it i am not very sure about this move...

- I agree comparing Mig-29 with JF-17 sales don't make sense
- I agree that such a move will not hurt JF-17 for atleast 2-3 years as 150 engines are in pipeline....

so unless and until Indian lobby know very well that Ws-13 is an inferior engine or China needs more time then 2-3 years to perfect the engine i do not see any reasons for Indian Lobby to sweat out....So not sure what actually happened behind the wall

What can be deduced is that the Indians are prepared to sell their souls lobbying to ensure that any future conflict with Pakistan is a through walkover with minimal losses to them and a complete end of the Pakistani war machine.

Well the feelings are mutual and is true for any rivals...Nothing specific about India....However question of the day is how much can one do???

 

[Guynextdoor]

If the sale is blocked the chinese may have options to force it open as before
China uses an equally large number of sukhoi fighters as India, and orders large numbers of Al-31's for its MKK and MK2 fleets which is still a substantial cash cow for Russia.
Equating the Mig-29 with the Thunder makes little sense, If countries can afford the Mig-29 they wont buy the Thunder, the newer mig packs more punch pound for pound and the russians offer a tested weapons package unlike the thunder which is a mix and match.
So, like before this is just the Indian lobby at its best (we wont order more sukhoi's and may not even consider the MIG-35 as a contender in MRCA unless you stop selling engines to Pakistan via china or bulgaria or whatever), and like before, the statements will be changed later since China too holds a lobby(albeit a quieter one compared to the Indians).

What can be deduced is that the Indians are prepared to sell their souls lobbying to ensure that any future conflict with Pakistan is a through walkover with minimal losses to them and a complete end of the Pakistani war machine.

Of course Indian Lobby is the best . The Indian Foreign Services picks up a batch of 14-20 etc. from a typical exam pool of 350,000...what else did you expect?? But my point- we don't have to sell our souls...just make sure we don't buy their jets...

 

[araz]

this is a duplicate thread as there is an ongoing thread on the same topic.MODS can we please merge the two threads.
Araz

 

[brain_dead]

Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

 

[SQ8]

from almost everybody's past experience, India will sell its soul to keep Pakistan behind in every area... no offense, just reality. Natural for a nemesis.

 

[javaman]

from almost everybody's past experience, India will sell its soul to keep Pakistan behind in every area... no offense, just reality. Natural for a nemesis.

but history says,u have been very punctual in doing the same.now also wat u.s is doing inside pak and says do more do more,even that was not ur war,but u.s made it ur war

 

[SQ8]

Debatable.. but off topic.

 

[rohailmalhi]

For All the Happy Indians............Sorry to bust ur Bubble.

TaimiKhan and Agnostic Muslim point out that at the most (if Russia does accept the argument being made by Russian manufacturers) the impact will be on JF-17 exports to other nations. The article does not indicate any concerns over the export of engines to Pakistan itself for use in Pakistani JF-17's.

Even if the export of engines for Pakistani use was restricted, 150 engines are already in the pipeline and would have been sufficient for another three years of production, by which time the WS-13 would be online and the JF-17 would shift to it.

the large font is only for Indians coz they fail to read it over and over again.

 

[Super Falcon]

well i think russia will loose alot of money because india already decided to buy weapons from usa and europe and they have china to sell by doing this they are just loosing the faith of chinese and in future no one would by anything from them they loose trillions SU and Mig CEO is indian puppet for sure well JF 17 will get engines if russia even blocks it just wait and watch MIG 29 already lost it reliability in other countries list no one wishing to buy them onlt poor countries welll russsians are doing a big mistake

 

[SBD-3]

THE OTHER OPTION Guizhou WS-13
FIRST RUN IN 2006

RUSSIA - WISE DECISION

That does not mean that thunder is out of options
as thunder follows a modular design...thus PAF has the option to Modify block II for WS-10 which is about 140% heavier than RD-33 (which has inferior thrust than RD-93) but given the larger thrust...RD-93 should be heavier than RD-33 thus weight difference would be reduced further...The greater use of composites may address the issue and resulting AC will have more thrust as WS-10 pack greater thust than RD-93 (almost double imo) so its all about making room in the back which should be a reasonable task...so dont worry my man....we certainly have got better thinking brains in PAF than me....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Premature ejaculation - read the subsequent discussion and how there is likely to be no impact on the Pakistani JF-17's, and no confirmation yet if there will be an impact on Sino-Pakistani exports of the JF-17.

 

[ptldM3]

India has never had problems with Russian aircraft????!!!!

What about all those MiG crashes and the grounding of the MKIs?

Yaar, most of the Mig crashes have very little to do with the design itself, pilot error contributed to about half of all Mig-21 crashes, bird strikes also made up a high percentage, other factors such as poor maintanance and poor replacement parts also played a large role, most people also overlook the fact that the Mig-21 is very old and older aircraft just arn't as reliable as newer ones.

Please read the following:

Almost Half Indian Airforce Grounded

Most crashes in the IAF have been traced to pilot error, lack of training, and bad parts. The Russians claim that the planes fail to fly because of the bad quality of parts made in Bharat. There is a huge issue with the HAL produced pumps which fail to perform at heights. For three decades Bharat has been unable to fix the problem–giving the IAF the worst crash record on the planet.

And:

MIG-21:Best fighter in the air- Hindustan Times

La Fontaine Committee set up a decade back to investigate these high crash rates had attributed them to bird hits, pilot error and maintenance failures.

As for the MKI groundings, that is standard procedure if a problem is found or if there has been a crash, all aicraft at one point or another were grounded, this includes, F-15, Typhoon, Rafale, F-16, Mig-29 ect ect.

Further, the Indians have only had 2 SU-30 crashes in 13 years and one was pilot error, that is very good considering the F-15 crashed at a rate of 3.6 per year, although to be fair the F-15 accumulates more flying time.

And i too have to agree that the deal the hault the RD-93 engines will only effect exports sales of the JF-17 which will not effect Pakistan.

 

[TaimiKhan]

what the algeria is doing i don't know....but india and china is much better country than algeria and both country is using russian aircraft without any problem. india is the only country who can buy any aircraft from the world even F-35 from usa. but india prefer to buy russian aircraft and INdian airforce has no problem with that....

i am realizing that whenever some member have no answer of my question they start attack personally on me...i am asking some question that related to mig-29 and jf-17..and please stop personally attack on me.....

1: why jf-17 cost is only $17 mn and Mig-29 cost is $32 mn. even russian r famous in world for cheap aircraft...

2: just compare both aircraft on Wikipedia or any other reliable website. u will find mig-29 is much better than jf-17 in the term of radar,speed,engine and combat capability. jf-17 is only superior in range .

3: if jf-17 is a good aircraft than why china is not using it.even jf-17 is very cheap in comparison of J-10 and j-11...

As for the first para, i have no wish to indulge in once again childish discussion as we as well as whole world and the sane Indian members know well what problems the IAF had gone through with Russian jets, as well as China is complaining about the quality of the AL-31 engines which have given them quiet some problems, may be resolved now, Algeria is another case, similarly RMAF another case, numerous other examples, but of no use as you are not listening to what is being said. Would be better if you go to Google and dig out material with regard to this topic and the issues faced by your own IAF. Hope you won't come up with this question once again.

1: why jf-17 cost is only $17 mn and Mig-29 cost is $32 mn. even russian r famous in world for cheap aircraft...

One is single engine, the other is double engine, thus 1 extra engine, bigger airframe, more raw material used, more labor time consumed, more spare parts, in single engine aircraft, for 50 aircraft lets suppose 25 extra engines required, while for a double engine aircraft for same 50 more larger number of spare engines would be required, enough reasons given, dig some other from your own thinking. Plus Russia was once communist, thus labor costs were down compared to other manufacturers, but since Russia has now become Capitalist too, thus their price tags would keep rising further as time passes by. For JF-17, its made by China whose manufacturing plants are govt run, thus no high labor costs, while in Pakistan it will also be made by PAF technicians and contracted employees, thus on this side also low labor costs.

2: just compare both aircraft on Wikipedia or any other reliable website. u will find mig-29 is much better than jf-17 in the term of radar,speed,engine and combat capability. jf-17 is only superior in range .

As I had said before, size doesn't matters, the bigger the better may be an ideal situation but for Air Forces operating aircraft, their own requirements are to be seen, MiG-29 may be better on paper specifications but when it comes to the operator they may go for single engine fighters as it may give them operational & maintenance benefits, plus a double engine fighter may not be their requirement, just like PAF which has no desire for a double engine fighter for now as it seems trouble in such a plane. I am pretty sure, if JF-17 & Mig-29 came to dog fighting, JF-17 will give it a tough fight rather would even have good chance of killing the MiG-29s, even if its TVC, counter tactics can be employed as was told by the USAF officer while describing the IAF's MKIs TVC. Both MiG-29 & JF-17 have HMD capability as well as capable missiles, and even in BVR mode, do not underestimate JF-17, MiG-29 may have a bigger radar, but you have no idea of the JF-17s RCS and at what range the MiG-29s radar will detect it, MiG-29 may not have detected the JF-17, while JF-17 may have detected it due to MiG-29s larger RCS.

Anyhow, this is all speculation at best, till both come face to face, that is where the Russians should have let JF-17 come face to face with Mig-29, which they didn't, so if JF-17 is inferior to Mig-29 then why using such dirty tactics. The best among both for the operator would have won.


3: if jf-17 is a good aircraft than why china is not using it.even jf-17 is very cheap in comparison of J-10 and j-11...

Told a thousand times, let the WS-13 engine come then you guys will get your final answer. Told many times, Chinese don't want to be engaged to yet another Russian engine for another of their fighter aircraft, as they are already using AL-31 for their two front line fighter systems.

CAF is testing the FC-1 as the 6th prototype is being tested there for what ??

As per what i know from my contacts, China has agreed to buy FC-1, but waiting for the WS-13 and more advanced set of avionics, most probably with AESA radar, which would be offered for PAF JF-17 2nd Batch also if all tests go smoothly.

So plzzzz wait for sometime and let the developments unfold, Indians will get their answer.

And i now sincerely hope that people would stop spinning in one direction and change the direction and go at some other way point.