Russia blocks RD-93 to Pakistan?

[Cheetah786]

People people have you learned nothing from all this look we were sanctioned from uncle we went with chinese.we now have the body that we can manufacture own our own or with chinese help (chinese have been tried and tested friends).Russians Are not our friends are in bed with india whom ever here was thinking other wise have learned nothing from the past.with chinese engine in it Indians can do jackall.And thats what our goal should be in the long run.self reliance or on a True friend if we have 2 :flag:

 

[Contrarian]

Russians Are not our friends are in bed with india

LOL

 

[Cheetah786]

They can do a LOT mate. They can suspend military ties with China. It would hurt China MUCH more, China imports weapons only from Russia. It is sanctioned everywhere else. Apart from that, international legal law would come into effect. China can be dragged in international courts. China can/will be made to pay a HEAVY penalty. From hence on, no country would trust China, there would be a loss of credibility in the international market. China would then not be sold ToT for anything., Russia would cease to send oil etc, etc, etc.
The other countries will not then honour any legal commitment to China.

These things are very complicated. China cannot send Russian weapons to any country without prior permission. China can do nuke proliferation cuz its got its own reactors etc, so it can be done covertly and ieven if it comes out, no1 can do anything but scowl. But this is differnt.

China can use the clout it has because of its arms purchases, economy, etc, etc, etc to MAKE Russia export the weapons, but it cannot do so unilaterally.

just a question as we see it india is moving towards Uncle sam more and more.in order for india to keep uncle putin happy they will have to keep spending same amount of money they have been do u agree.but we all no uncle sam i doubt they will want india in uncle putins basket so india will have to make that decision today may be tommorw.As uncle sam is grooming india to be there proxy against china (yes yes i no indians are to smart to fall for that and its there better economics performance thats why uncle is spending money in india what ever.and we all no when it comes to there national intrest all they have to do is slap heavy duties on goods comming out of india to usa and vollaa arms purchase will be from usa ).and lets go towards china they buy heavely from Russia and not looking at buying from usa.so as far as i can see Russia stands to lose a lot more with china then india. saying all that i would much rather have a chines engine in it then russian.

 

[Cheetah786]

LOL

HA ha ha ha i been involve in buisness with Americans for a long long time and trust me when i say india will be uncle sams basket before you can say wtf. its called economic cloud.i doubt india sells as much to Russia as it does with usa.as i said in my previous post they no how to make countries change there loyalities.just a matter of time before.Russians will be looking for new MArkets for there Arms.oh yeah about the fact of u being able to buy from russia and usa at the same time u do the math usa will not allow you to continue like that as there technology could end up in russian hands.

oh i should say welcome to sanction club sooner or later you will be a member

 

[joey]

cheetah increasingly india is becoming self reliant so the traditional ally system is long gone.

dont believe me wait a decade and see.

trust me even china is highly dependent on russia but has gone long way adopting techs.

India will never move to anyone else because that means whole new logistics new weapons bla bla and it is a setback towards indigenousiation and TOT's.

 

[lulldapull]

Well, I am happy, because a CIA sponsored dictatorial regime is not going to get more weapons to kill its own citizens.

I also disagree with Blain that China drives the Russian economic engine. True, they are good paying customers for sanitised Russian technology....But they are desperate, as no one else would sell them. So Putin can abuse them, and that he does......

Facts are that India and Russia just signed a deal on the 5th Gen warplane. India will be dishing out more than $6 billion on the MRCA's and associated guff. I don't think the Chinese will violate the 'End User' clause! That also goes for the WS-13 or WS-10 because that too is reverse engineerd or liscenced Russian technology.
Putin should clamp down hard on any transfers to enemy countries and potential enemies. There is growing opinion in Russia that Putin should cut off tech transfers to China, and keep em weak.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

In the Name of Allah the Most Merciful.

invocation for when something you dislike happens,or when you fail to achieve what you attempt to.

Qadarullaahi wa maa shaa'a fa 'ala. amin

it was the decree of Allah and He does whatever He wills. amin

What to say if something happens to please you or to displease you

When something happend that pleased the Prophet (p.b.u.h) used to say

Alhumdu lil-laahil-lathee bini'matihi tatimmus-saalihaat. amin

"Praise is to Allah Who by His blessings all good things are perfected." amin. And if something happened that displeased him, he used to say: Alhamdu lil-laahi 'alaa kulli haal. amin

"Praise is to Allah in all circums-tances." amin

 

[salman77]

In the Name of Allah the Most Merciful.

invocation for when something you dislike happens,or when you fail to achieve what you attempt to.

Qadarullaahi wa maa shaa'a fa 'ala. amin

it was the decree of Allah and He does whatever He wills. amin

What to say if something happens to please you or to displease you

When something happend that pleased the Prophet (p.b.u.h) used to say

Alhumdu lil-laahil-lathee bini'matihi tatimmus-saalihaat. amin

"Praise is to Allah Who by His blessings all good things are perfected." amin. And if something happened that displeased him, he used to say: Alhamdu lil-laahi 'alaa kulli haal. amin

"Praise is to Allah in all circums-tances." amin

 

[Lilo]

even if russia doesn't allow pakistan to use the rd-93 on its JF- 17's there is also another engine that china is making and is now complete or nearing completion which is called the WS-13 which is being made for the JF-17. thats why neither pakistan or china is making a big fuss, the only country making a fuss as usual is india.

pakistan will get the JF-17's, and the engine isn't going to be a problem, be it RD-93 or WS-13.

I think china is presently more bothered about developing its WS-10A "Taihang" turbofan for its J-10 (as a replacement for russian supplied AL-31FN turbo fans currently used on J-10).

Compared to WS-10A(which generates a static thrust of 13,200 kgf) ,WS-13
is in an entirely different league with a static thrust of 5,000 kgf (i.e ~1/3rd of WS-10A's power).

So i guess that with china concentrating more on development of WS-10A for its J-10 and it would not focus much energy in developing WS-13 (which is an entirely different engine).So i think PAF needs to wait ~5 years to see a JF-17 with a WS-13 in it.

Pesonally i feel that pakistan's best bet would be to go with General Electric F404/F414(with 4990 kgf thrust -the one used on gripen and f18).Then it would be possible to induct JF-17 in a 2-3 years time frame.Also Pakistan will
need to sign an end user agreement so that these engines dont fall into the hands of china.

 

[lulldapull]

I think china is presently more bothered about developing its WS-10A "Taihang" turbofan for its J-10 (as a replacement for russian supplied AL-31FN turbo fans currently used on J-10).

Compared to WS-10A(which generates a static thrust of 13,200 kgf) ,WS-13
is in an entirely different league with a static thrust of 5,000 kgf (i.e ~1/3rd of WS-10A's power).

So i guess that with china concentrating more on development of WS-10A for its J-10 and it would not focus much energy in developing WS-13 (which is an entirely different engine).So i think PAF needs to wait ~5 years to see a JF-17 with a WS-13 in it.

Pesonally i feel that pakistan's best bet would be to go with General Electric F404/F414(with 4990 kgf thrust -the one used on gripen and f18).Then it would be possible to induct JF-17 in a 2-3 years time frame. Also Pakistan will
need to sign an end user agreement so that these engines dont fall into the hands of china.

For the Pakistani's to mate a new powerplant into the empennage of the FC-1which has been designed around the RD-33/93 would not be possible. The 404is a much thinner engine and would necessitate a redesign of the entire rear fuselage. PAC Kamra doesnot have any type of wind tunnel or static testing capabilities. Nor do they have any expertise in a task of such magnitude.

Also Lilo, I don't think Russia would allow these copy cat Chinese to export Russian and Klimov/ ANP Saturn's proprietary and possibly reverse engineered/ copied/ liscensed technology now being used on these so called WS-10/13's to the 'End User' either.

 

[PakSniper]

No., need to be depressed yar. WS-13 will be ready and would be better than the RD-93 with improved thrust (possibly thrust Vector their are conflicting reports here). Most of all do you see PAF making a big issue out of this, we have smart guyies on our top brass who know what their doing. By the time the engine will be ready, we can continue to imporve JF-17, we are currently looking for AESA radar and some western avionic suite for the aircraft., this plane than challenge what Indian has in it's inventory up until the MiG-29 (of course once we get the AWACS), but beyond that it willn't challenge anything to fight SU-30MKI we have F-16s MLU and more Block 50+ comming soon, and negotiation is going on to boost the 36 to 50 (J-10)from recent reports from PakDef (which i'm a member of for a while). The most it could hurt is about a year or two no more than that. By that time PAF will have more cash to buy some goodies aswell, bumping the number of J-10 or F-16.

These things are always expected from Indians,. whining and crying is a national trade mark of India,. just like when their RAW agents gave a report to Congress to stop the sale of Anti-Tank missiles cause it will be used against India from logically speaking no **** it will be used against you, these people don't use their brains let them whine it's all their good at.

 

[PakSniper]

I think china is presently more bothered about developing its WS-10A "Taihang" turbofan for its J-10 (as a replacement for russian supplied AL-31FN turbo fans currently used on J-10).

Compared to WS-10A(which generates a static thrust of 13,200 kgf) ,WS-13
is in an entirely different league with a static thrust of 5,000 kgf (i.e ~1/3rd of WS-10A's power).

So i guess that with china concentrating more on development of WS-10A for its J-10 and it would not focus much energy in developing WS-13 (which is an entirely different engine).So i think PAF needs to wait ~5 years to see a JF-17 with a WS-13 in it.

Pesonally i feel that pakistan's best bet would be to go with General Electric F404/F414(with 4990 kgf thrust -the one used on gripen and f18).Then it would be possible to induct JF-17 in a 2-3 years time frame.Also Pakistan will
need to sign an end user agreement so that these engines dont fall into the hands of china.

Please stop talking out your ***, you have no proof to back you claims up, read this...

recently a chinese website acknowledged the completion of the WS-13 engine and is under going flight trials for the verification of necessary parameters.i'll try to summarise the points that i have found about this engine.

1.It uses solid titanium alloy fan blades.
2.It has a digital authority control system.
3.It has a thrust of about 7.8.
4.It's length is about 4.14 metres.
5.It's diameter is about 1.02 metres.
6.Dry weight of the WS-13 is about 1,135 kg.
7.Maximum thrust of the engine is about is about 86.37 kn.
8.Cruise thrust is about 51.2 kn.
9.Needs an overhaul for every 810 hours.
10.Total life of the engine is about 2200 hours.

http://www.cnwnews.com/Html/soceity/society_js/2006-12/31/11391432.html

The news above was reported on 2006-12-31 11:38:47 and also has been mentioned on PakDef, and other sources well, and I had the article translated by my University teacher to double check the information above., and as I said it will be a year or two delay most.

 

[Cheetah786]

cheetah increasingly india is becoming self reliant so the traditional ally system is long gone.

dont believe me wait a decade and see.

trust me even china is highly dependent on russia but has gone long way adopting techs.

India will never move to anyone else because that means whole new logistics new weapons bla bla and it is a setback towards indigenousiation and TOT's.

joey Up to the 90s u wanna sell in canada u must have a plant in canada.so a lots of companies had there plants in canada.just what india was doing for a while iam not to sure but i think its still the same i could be wrong.canada trades about 1 billion or more a day with usa.u name it from water to satellites.but just to protect there own industry they put heavy duties on canadian steel lumber and some other stuff.funny thing is most plants in canada are owned by the americans.
canadians have no choice but to bend back words for the Americans u no why.its called economic survival.canada is decades ahead in technology heck they are ahead in lots of tech even to the americans.i doubt india is any way near as advance as canada or europe for that matter.and if canadian cant tell uncle sam what to do how am i to belive india can.
i have no doubt india will move ahead in a decade.but if u think u can have american investment and be independent. i believe u have s shock of the life time comming.uncle sam have never ever ever done any thing that didnt benefit them.so believe me when i say when uncle will tell mr singh its time to jump.answer will be how high.if u think iam saying that cause iam a pakistani ask any indian in the west they will tell you the same story.as long as u saying indian will never move to any 1 else i can give u few examples of that just happening.oh i dont no civilian nuclear reactors.and other military hardware coming.or already in india.its just the begining of the end of independence.as i said before welcome to the club of sanctions.

 

[kidwaibhai]

i also read the news that the chinese engine is going through trails. so this is not that big of a set back. i think the top brass in the PAF anticipated this and that is why they were pushing with the development of the WS-13 engine. let us not forget that this news has not been published in any major defence news magazines or sites so lets not get depresses just yet. as far as the JF-17 not being a threat that is just bull because v all now its specifications and it looks much better than the MIGs that india has now. if it were not such a big threat y would india "*****" about it so much

 

[genmirajborgza786]

cheetah increasingly india is becoming self reliant so the traditional ally system is long gone.

dont believe me wait a decade and see.

trust me even china is highly dependent on russia but has gone long way adopting techs.

India will never move to anyone else because that means whole new logistics new weapons bla bla and it is a setback towards indigenousiation and TOT's.

joey , yes india has come along way no honestly and the world give india including me and people in pakistan credit for that but when you talk about an allaiance and this new u.s/India is a big one so take a good look around pakistan-saudi arabia-kuwait-egypt-canada-britain-sauth korea-brazil-turkey they are all in the clout of the u.s so the new member india may be talking about self reliance and so on and so forth so did these countries at one stage or the other zulfikar ali bhutto of pakistan, king faisal of saudi arabia, naser of egypt, your very own indira gandhi use to be known for talking tough with uncle sam where is she now? along with the others as mentioned above america has never given its other partner any thing except a fraction of the profit and a slow but solid based systemetic dependencies for which the american,s are recognized the world over remember mate in uncle sams corporation there and i mean in a nutreal manner NO such thing as an self reliance independent policy trust me mate we know how ever as the new member of the group i can understand your feelings and i respect that and give india all the credit for where it is today but in the corpprate group of uncle sam its eighter uncle sams way or the highway thats the sad reality freind. however welcome to the corporate.