Russia and India at odds over MTA powerplant

[Nilgiri]

Russia and India at odds over MTA powerplant | IHS Jane's 360

A dispute between Russia and India over the type of engine to power the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) is threatening to derail the co-development project, it was revealed on 16 December.

With both countries having signed the preliminary design contract for the twin-engined airlifter back in 2012, progress is being stymied by a failure to agree on the powerplant to be fitted, the Indian Economic Times newspaper reported.

According to the publication, Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) wants to adopt a modified version of the Aviadvigtel PS-90A-76 turbofan that already powers the Ilyushin Il-76 'Candid' platform, while representatives from India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) are insisting that a totally new engine that features full authority digital engine control (FADEC) be developed instead. Russia is saying that this FADEC requirement has been added too late, and that it is not needed anyhow.

"The PS-90 does not have FADEC but the necessity of such a system was not there in the technical specifications initially. It was added later. The technical requirement [for performance] are fully satisfied with the PS-90 engine," the president of UAC Yury Slyusar told the Economic Times , adding; "So the official status is that we have finished the advanced preliminary design stage over a year ago [and] that has to be accepted by the Indian side. We hope they accept the design and move forward".

With neither side seemingly willing to budge on this issue, the Economic Timesreported that Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi will raise the issue when he visits Moscow later this month to try and find a solution that can get the programme back on-track. If the impasse continues, Russia may proceed with the project unilaterally, the report states.

Assuming it does get built, the MTA is expected to have a payload of between 15 and 20 tonnes and a range of some 2,500 to 2,700 km, which will put it in the same class of airlifter as the Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules (22 tonnes) and the Embraer KC-390 (both 23 tonnes).

 

[DRDO KALI 10000]

Now Indians demanding to much ! Hello we have to face pak or china not USA !!

 

[anant_s]

I don't think MTA is a well conceived program, especially given the fact that C 130J is already on operation and is a mature and proven platform. it already has been in operation in India and has proven its worth in several humanitarian operations. It has landed at unpaved ground at Daulat Beg Oldie and now IAF is fully conversant with it.

I suppose operationally speaking, it would be better that we increase fleet size of C 130J and given lockheed can deliver these quickly, it is better to devote money and energy over 130J only.
@Abingdonboy

 

[Nilgiri]

View attachment 280066

I don't think MTA is a well conceived program, especially given the fact that C 130J is already on operation and is a mature and proven platform. it already has been in operation in India and has proven its worth in several humanitarian operations. It has landed at unpaved ground at Daulat Beg Oldie and now IAF is fully conversant with it.
View attachment 280067
I suppose operationally speaking, it would be better that we increase fleet size of C 130J and given lockheed can deliver these quickly, it is better to devote money and energy over 130J only.
@Abingdonboy

It depends on what mission profile India specifically wants with the system.

Turboprop means better for shorter, lower hops (efficiency wise).

Turbofan is better for longer, higher cruise.

When you are talking about the "max range" time period, MTA will get to that distance a lot quicker since we are talking 2500 km+....holding everything else the same.

Basically does IAF want the speed advantage of turbofan?

 

[Abingdonboy]

View attachment 280066

I don't think MTA is a well conceived program, especially given the fact that C 130J is already on operation and is a mature and proven platform. it already has been in operation in India and has proven its worth in several humanitarian operations. It has landed at unpaved ground at Daulat Beg Oldie and now IAF is fully conversant with it.
View attachment 280067
I suppose operationally speaking, it would be better that we increase fleet size of C 130J and given lockheed can deliver these quickly, it is better to devote money and energy over 130J only.
@Abingdonboy

At the time the MTA was proposed (7-8 years ago) it seemed like a good option for India- local production, an oppourtunity to expand India's aviation design/devlopment capabilities etc etc but the sheer lack of interest on the Russian side compounded by their usual games (revising projected outlays, ignoring the partner's input, stalling etc) has left this project a white elephant that is all but ignored.

I am pretty certain no MTA will enter IAF service now or at least not for a decade, and with the Russian economy tanking I feel as though we are wittnessing the project's slow death.


The C-130XJ seems like the most logical alternative to the joke that the MTA is fast becoming:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/conte...esday/Wed 0830 C-130XJ-LM-Kathleen Atkins.pdf

Lockheed Martin Promotes Lower-Cost “C130XJ” | News: Aviation International News



With a large order I'm sure the GoI/MoD could secure a very attractive industrial package for India- TATA would be very eager to conduct yet more C-130 work in India. I fail to see why the MTA is an attractive option anymore, TATA should make a joint proposal with Lockhead Martin to tempt the MoD/IAF away from this travesty otherwise they (MoD/IAF) are sleep walking into yet another Russian-caused disaster. With the feasibilty of upgrade/life extension program for the majority of the AN-32s already looking less than certain thanks to the Crimean crisis there needs to be a serious re-think conducted by the IAF/MoD. An air force (and by extension nation) is built around transport capabilty, it may be less glamourous than fighters but it is arguabably far more important on a strategic level, and with the AN-32s forming the backbone of the IAF's transport fleet the MTA project is citical to them and thus any doubts need to trigger alarms now and solutions sought, stalling hard decsion making will only compound the issue further down the line.

It depends on what mission profile India specifically wants with the system.

Turboprop means better for shorter, lower hops (efficiency wise).

Turbofan is better for longer, higher cruise.

When you are talking about the "max range" time period, MTA will get to that distance a lot quicker since we are talking 2500 km+....holding everything else the same.

Basically does IAF want the speed advantage of turbofan?

Given the MTA is to replace the An-32s that are a) turboprops and b) used almost exclusively for domestic missions I do not see much utility in opting for turbofans. The efficencies of turbofans are most apparent at long ranges, the way the IAF would use them would ensure the benefits to the IAF would be negligable and unlikely to offset the extra cost of maintaining turbofans. For out of area operations the IAF has C-17s.


@PARIKRAMA @Echo_419 @MilSpec @Koovie @FrenchPilot

 

[anant_s]

With a large order I'm sure the GoI/MoD could secure a very attractive industrial package for India- TATA would be very eager to conduct yet more C-130 work in India.

This program can easily fit in Make in India initiative and surely with future projected requirements, C 130J with its versatility, can be procured in higher numbers.
A common platform serving several operational needs is really a smart move and in this sense MTA looks like redundant idea.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

At the time the MTA was proposed (7-8 years ago) it seemed like a good option for India- local production, an oppourtunity to expand India's aviation design/devlopment capabilities etc etc but the sheer lack of interest on the Russian side compounded by their usual games (revising projected outlays, ignoring the partner's input, stalling etc) has left this project a white elephant that is all but ignored.

I am pretty certain no MTA will enter IAF service now or at least not for a decade, and with the Russian economy tanking I feel as though we are wittnessing the project's slow death.


The C-130XJ seems like the most logical alternative to the joke that the MTA is fast becoming:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/conte...esday/Wed 0830 C-130XJ-LM-Kathleen Atkins.pdf

Lockheed Martin Promotes Lower-Cost “C130XJ” | News: Aviation International News



With a large order I'm sure the GoI/MoD could secure a very attractive industrial package for India- TATA would be very eager to conduct yet more C-130 work in India. I fail to see why the MTA is an attractive option anymore, TATA should make a joint proposal with Lockhead Martin to tempt the MoD/IAF away from this travesty otherwise they (MoD/IAF) are sleep walking into yet another Russian-caused disaster. With the feasibilty of upgrade/life extension program for the majority of the AN-32s already looking less than certain thanks to the Crimean crisis there needs to be a serious re-think conducted by the IAF/MoD. An air force (and by extension nation) is built around transport capabilty, it may be less glamourous than fighters but it is arguabably far more important on a strategic level, and with the AN-32s forming the backbone of the IAF's transport fleet the MTA project is citical to them and thus any doubts need to trigger alarms now and solutions sought, stalling hard decsion making will only compound the issue further down the line.




Given the MTA is to replace the An-32s that are a) turboprops and b) used almost exclusively for domestic missions I do not see much utility in opting for turbofans. The efficencies of turbofans are most apparent at long ranges, the way the IAF would use them would ensure the benefits to the IAF would be negligable and unlikely to offset the extra cost of maintaining turbofans. For out of area operations the IAF has C-17s.


@PARIKRAMA @Echo_419 @MilSpec @Koovie @FrenchPilot

Agree completely. The only hiccup i see in this is
1. Will the MTA die down really? or will it be delayed further?
2. The C130 XJ is an awesome example. But what if we say we want all of them in MII and ask USA to show its true commitment to India's MII
3. The big question.. Will India recognise 20-22 tonnes payload capabity versus 38 tonnes capacity of XJ?
4. With C130 Pathfinder project going slow, will DM MP recognise the 130 XJ opportunity and talk with Ash Carter to build/assemble all of them in Indian under MII?

 

[Abingdonboy]

This program can easily fit in Make in India initiative and surely with future projected requirements, C 130J with its versatility, can be procured in higher numbers.
A common platform serving several operational needs is really a smart move and in this sense MTA looks like redundant idea.

It is increasingly looking like a no-brainer in my opnion especially with the new GoI. India's defence policy methodology in 2015 is very idfferent to when the MTA project was intially mooted. Back then HAL was the sole credible candidate for a JV, today there are multiple private powerhouses just itching to get into the defence industry on this scale-TATA itself is in the final stages of begining production fo the C-295 in India. Reliance producing fighters (Rafales) and helicopters, TATA producing transport a/c and others (L&T and such) in the "game" too is a mouth-watering prospect and looks to be how the MoD is thinking. HAL itself is MASSIVELY overburdened with what it has on its plate and would do well to start outsourcing proudction of specific aircraft to the pvt sector.

The potential for pooled orders for the C-130J for the IN, ICG and IAF (perhaps even the MHA) should also be explored.

1. Will the MTA die down really? or will it be delayed further?

I think we are unlikely to see the MTA project offically killed off by the MoD/GoI- it is apparent that it is going nowhere but for geopoltical compulsions it is probably easier to just let it die of natural causes a few years down the line. Unilateral cancellation right now would cause ripples the GoI does not want especially at a time when the far more strategically critical FGFA project is being addressed.

2. The C130 XJ is an awesome example. But what if we say we want all of them in MII and ask USA to show its true commitment to India's MII

I think the USG and LM would both be very willing to at least seriously consider such a proposal- Boeing has offically offered a F-18 production line to India. Many C-130 component as already made in India and I am pretty certain LM would like to ramp this up and stealing a(nother) defence deal away from Russia would make it all the more enticing for the USG.

4. With C130 Pathfinder project going slow, will DM MP recognise the 130 XJ opportunity and talk with Ash Carter to build/assemble all of them in Indian under MII?

I sincerely hope the XJ is at least on DM MP's wishlist.



+ @anant_s another benefit I had forgot to mention is that a larger order for C-130s would ensure local MRO facilties in India (regardless of whether production happens in India or not), as it stands the IAF's 2 C-130J-30 SQNs would have to send their Hercs to MRO facilties elsewhere in Asia for such purposes. Massive efficencies can come from local MRO facilties not to mention the possibility of extra revenues from third party regional C-130 operators (Bangladesh and Sri Lanka amongst others further ashore) sending their Hercs to India's C-130 MRO facilities.

 

[anant_s]

another benefit I had forgot to mention is that a larger order for C-130s would ensure local MRO facilties in India (regardless of whether production happens in India or not), as it stands the IAF's 2 C-130J-30 SQNs would have to send their Hercs to MRO facilties elsewhere in Asia for such purposes. Massive efficencies can come from local MRO facilties not to mention the possibility of extra revenues from third party regional C-130 operators (Bangladesh and Sri Lanka amongst others further ashore) sending their Hercs to India's C-130 MRO facilities.

Absolutely.
Infact if LM agrees to create a regional maintenance facility for C 130 in India, even nearby countries can find it useful to send their machines for mid term overhaul (National policies permitting).

 

[Abingdonboy]

Absolutely.
Infact if LM agrees to create a regional maintenance facility for C 130 in India, even nearby countries can find it useful to send their machines for mid term overhaul (National policies permitting).
View attachment 280096

As far as I know LM has already agreed to do so when the C-130 fleet in India exceeds a certain point (I think it may be >20 Hercs).

 

[axisofevil]

Russia cannot expect to keep milking the cash cow if it doesn't feed it.

 

[Blue Marlin]

View attachment 280066

I don't think MTA is a well conceived program, especially given the fact that C 130J is already on operation and is a mature and proven platform. it already has been in operation in India and has proven its worth in several humanitarian operations. It has landed at unpaved ground at Daulat Beg Oldie and now IAF is fully conversant with it.
View attachment 280067
I suppose operationally speaking, it would be better that we increase fleet size of C 130J and given lockheed can deliver these quickly, it is better to devote money and energy over 130J only.
@Abingdonboy

good image but you forgot the most important the kc-390

 

[Abingdonboy]

good image but you forgot the most important the kc-390

I thought about that plane but I don't see how it fits into the IAF's doctrine nor do I see the utility of this plane over and above the C-130XJ which is, by far, the most compelling alternative to the MTA as it stands. The only reason why the MTA project was even explored was because of the industrial benefits that Russia promised, take that side away (as you would have to for the KC-390 and the plane doesn't look all that useful to the IAF.

 

[Blue Marlin]

I thought about that plane but I don't see how it fits into the IAF's doctrine nor do I see the utility of this plane over and above the C-130XJ which is, by far, the most compelling alternative to the MTA as it stands. The only reason why the MTA project was even explored was because of the industrial benefits that Russia promised, take that side away (as you would have to for the KC-390 and the plane doesn't look all that useful to the IAF.

well if you compare the specs. there near enough the same or similar at least. to be quiet honest i would go for that over the il-214.

 

[Abingdonboy]

well if you compare the specs. there near enough the same or similar at least. to be quiet honest i would go for that over the il-214.

What I am saying is that the MTA (and by extension KC-390) is not really the optimal solution as the IAF's replacment for the AN-32 (being turbofan) but the industrial benefits the MTA was to bring offset these drawbacks. With the KC-390 there would be no such industrial benefits for India and thus only a comprimised product as far as the IAF is concerned. Addtionally, inducting another type and one as "internationalised" as the KC-390 would be a more complex task for the IAF than either inducting the MTA or further C-130s. Brazil is not really on India's radar as far as expanding ties goes (as it is another devloping nation and a stumbling one at that) so there isn't even a poltical argument for the KC-390 for India.

Russia cannot expect to keep milking the cash cow if it doesn't feed it.

And yet they do expect such and when it appears the Indian side is reluctant they dangle the threat of defence sales to Pakistan in front of India....