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Royal Saudi Air Force receives the most advanced model of fighter jets F-15SA

So? The vast majority of F-35s are not ready to be operational. Does that make them 4th gen fighters dumbass?


The F-35 has run into one of its most significant problems yet
http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-engine-problems-2015-4
Bro,

When you cite a source to support your argument, always check its date of publication and keep an eye on updates that might have occurred (if any). Those engine-related problems were sorted out by 2016: http://www.utc.com/News/Pages/Powerful-Milestones-2016-and-The-F135-Engine.aspx

F-35A and F-35B aircraft achieved initial combat ready status in 2016; F-35C will achieve the same in Spring 2018.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/02/air-force-lifts-f-35a-stealth-fighter-to-combat-ready-status.html
http://www.janes.com/article/63425/usmc-completes-f-35b-operational-tests

F-35A model registered a very impressive 15:1 kill ratio in RED FLAG exercise in 2017 (most realistic, challenging and ambitious exercise of its kind so far), lending further credibility to the claim that it is ready for combat operations worldwide. Overseas deployment is actually happening: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/f-35a-maintainers-demonstrate-global-reach

Holistically, F-35 project is way too ambitious (and complex) for its kind in history and it will not reach its conclusion anytime soon; lot of work in progress. However, it is important to understand that F-35 project has advanced much further than similar Russian and Chinese projects.

Overview of F-35 project: https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts

More importantly, US enjoys a fully operational and mature 5th generation strike platform in F-22 Raptor; F-35 project will add another layer to it. Conversely, Russia and China have a lot of catching to do.

So does the F-35, but it is still a 5th gen fighter idiot.

From ejector seats that could kill to a computer system pilots can't log into: Pentagon F-35 fighter jet report reveals massive problems still facing 'most expensive weapon in history'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...problems-facing-expensive-weapon-history.html
Another disclosure that is outdated with an overblown PRESS RELEASE accompanying it. Such reports are not intended for public consumption; they offer an 'overly critical' view of developments in order to put pressure on the workforce to do its job.

Take note of findings of RED FLAG based trials:

All indications from the pilots and commanders at Red Flag are that the F-35A performed far better than recent reports from the Director of Operational Test and Evaluation seemed to indicate.

The now-departed Director of Operational Test and Evaluation, Michael Gilmore, said the Lockheed Martin-built aircraft is “not effective and not suitable across the required mission areas and against currently fielded threats” and detailed 64 pages of problems, many of them with to do with the aircraft’s software.

The view from Red Flag was quite different. The 13 F-35As maintained a 90 percent mission capable rate during the three-week exercise, respectable for any combat aircraft. Planes did have problems, including one that lost a generator, but every issue was dealt with inside of 24 hours, according to two Air Force officers talking to reporters today at the end of the exercises.

“We flew these jets hard. We flew a ton of missions in Red Flag during those four weeks. I would strongly disagree (with the proposition) that the jets are not ready. We are ready to take these jets on the road whenever we’re asked to,” Lt. Col. George Watkins, 34th Fighter Squadron commander, told us. And he said the 3i software that controls the plane, its weapons, and sensors performed extremely well.

And the mission systems, which enable most of the plane’s combat capabilities, performed beyond pilots’ expectations. “All our mission systems were up every time,” Watkins said, noting that he would often fly his F-16 with one or more of its mission systems down and just have to find work-arounds. “For the F-35 at this Red Flag, every mission system was up every time.”

While Boeing continues to press the Navy to buy F/A-18E/F Super Hornets for the carrier fleet and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis has ordered a review of the carrier version of the Joint Strike fighter, the F-35C, there was no doubt expressed by the pilots at today’s roundtable about whether they would prefer to fly a fourth-generation plane — like the F-16 or F-18 — or a fifth-gen plane like the F-35 for the Air Force: “The capabilities we are bringing are better than a fourth-gen aircraft. I would not want to go back and take an F-16 back into Red Flag,” Watkins said.

By the way, Navy electronic warfare EA-18G Growlers did fly at this Red Flag, with an Australian Wedgetail aircraft, along with British Typhoons, F-16s and F-15Cs.

How did the F-35A fare at striking targets with bombs? They dropped 27 bombs and hit 25 targets “exactly within a foot of where it was supposed to hit.” The two weapons that missed were caused by weapon failures, not the jet, Watkins said.

Although they don’t have an updated figure, the pilots told us that the F-35 kill ratio was higher than the 15-1 figure they initially reported. While F-35A pilots continue to say that their success against Integrated Air Defense Systems and ability to bomb targets is at least as important as their ability to kill enemy fighters, the fact is that the kill ratio is a simple baseline against which the plane can be judged.

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2017/02/f-35a-at-red-flag-90-mission-capable-key-systems-up-every-flight/




Still 5th gen idiot.
It shall be noted that American perception of what constitutes a 5th generation fighter is vastly different from that of standard assumptions in PRESS/MEDIA; stealthy airframe is just an item in the checklist for it. FYI: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/unde...on-system-of-f-35-jsf-for-the-dummies.472240/

PAK-FA, J-31 and J-20 may not be 5th generation fighters as per American criteria but they are marketed as such in PRESS. Only time will tell.

If KSA wanted to then it definitely could build it's own 5th gen fighter.
Easier said than done.

Saudi Arabia does not have an advanced aviation industry and relevant R&D program in place. It needs to establish this industry first and only then it would be in the position to commence a domestic 5th generation fighter project. However, this milestone might take lot of years to bear fruit.
 
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Buying F15s in 2017
Come on man. Should have gone with more eurofighters and asked americans for F35 not this crap(considering the price tag)
Hell they could even kickstart a 5th gen program with Dissault or Saab or any Experienced Avaition Industry witht that money invested into R&D
F-15 is crap? Jesus Christ.

F-15 is a much larger aircraft than Eurofighter Typhoon with superior speed, operational capacity and almost twice the range and payload. Take note:
  • Max speed: 2.5 Mach
  • Max ceiling: 70,000 feet (21,336 m)
  • Max unfueled range: 2,600 nautical miles
  • Max takeoff weight: 81,000 pounds (36,741 kilograms)
  • Max weapons load: 29,500 pounds (13,381 kilograms)
  • Max load factor: 9.0 G’s
  • Combat radius: 1,000 nautical miles (including 20-minute loiter)
To put those specs in a perspective, F-15 is a much more practical aircraft for combat operations than any mid-range aircraft in existence. Even F-35 is not a substitute for it.

And really impressive combat record too: http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/the-combat-statistics-for-all-the-aircraft-currently-in-use.html

You think Saudi are stupid to invest in this platform in-spite of keeping a fleet of Eurofighter Typhoons? They know better.

Israel is also in love with F-15s and this should tell you something.

The 29 billion figure is just insane!
Maybe not:

The $29.4 billion deal bought Saudi Arabia:

1- 84 F-15SA Aircraft
f-15e-strike-eagle-2.jpg


2- 170 APG-63(v)3 Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar

3- 193 F-110-GE-129 Improved Performance Engines

4- 100 M61 Vulcan Cannons

5- 100 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System/Low Volume Terminal (MIDS/LVT) and spares

6- 193 LANTIRN Navigation Pods (3rd Generation-Tiger Eye)

7- 338 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)

8- 462 AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVGS)

9- 300 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER Missiles

10- 25 Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM-9X

11- 25 Special Air Training Missiles (NATM-9X)

12- 500 AIM-120C/7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)

13- 25 AIM-120 CATMs

14- 1000 Dual Mode Laser/Global Positioning System (GPS) Guided Munitions (500 lb)

15- 1000 Dual Mode Laser/GPS Guided Munitions (2000 lb)

16- 1100 GBU-24 PAVEWAY III Laser Guided Bombs (2000 lb)

17- 1000 GBU-31B V3 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) (2000 lb)

18- 1300 CBU-105D/B Sensor Fuzed Weapons (SFW)/Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD)

19- 50 CBU-105 Inert

20- 1000 MK-82 500lb General Purpose Bombs

21- 6000 MK-82 500lb Inert Training Bombs

22- 2000 MK-84 2000lb General Purpose Bombs

23- 2000 MK-84 2000lb Inert Training Bombs

24- 200 000 20mm Cartridges

25- 400 000 20mm Target Practice Cartridges

26- 400 AGM-84 Block II HARPOON Missiles

27- 600 AGM-88B HARM Missiles

28- 169 Digital Electronic Warfare Systems (DEWS)

29- 158 AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Targeting Systems

30- 169 AN/AAS-42 Infrared Search and Track (IRST) Systems

31- 10 DB-110 Reconnaissance Pods

32- 462 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System Helmets

33- 40 Remotely Operated Video Enhanced Receivers (ROVER)

34- 80 Air Combat Manoeuvring Instrumentation Pods


Plus:

36 AH-64D Block III APACHE Helicopters

72 UH-60M BLACKHAWK Helicopters

36 AH-6i Light Attack Helicopters

- 243 T700-GE-701D Engines

- 40 Modernized Targeting Acquisition and Designation Systems/Pilot Night Vision Sensors

- 20 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars with Radar Electronics Unit

- 20 AN/APR-48A Radar Frequency Interferometer

- 171 AN/APR-39 Radar Signal Detecting Sets

- 171 AN/AVR-2B Laser Warning Sets

- 171 AAR-57(V)3/5 Common Missile Warning Systems

- 40 Wescam MX-15Di (AN/AAQ-35) Sight/Targeting Sensors

- 40 GAU-19/A 12.7mm (.50 caliber) Gatling Guns

- 108 Improved Helmet Display Sight Systems

- 52 30mm Automatic Weapons

- 18 Aircraft Ground Power Units

- 168 M240H Machine Guns

- 300 AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles

- 421 M310 A1 Modernized Launchers

- 158 M299 HELLFIRE Longbow Missile Launchers

- 2592 AGM-114R HELLFIRE II Missiles

- 1229 AN/PRQ-7 Combat Survivor Evader Locators

- 4 BS-1 Enhanced Terminal Voice Switches

- 4 Digital Airport Surveillance Radars

- 4 Fixed-Base Precision Approach Radar

- 4 DoD Advanced Automation Service

- 4 Digital Voice Recording System

Plus maintenance and other long term services.. delivery to end by 2020..
 
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Bro,

When you cite a source to support your argument, always check its date of publication and keep an eye on updates that might have occurred (if any). Those engine-related problems were sorted out by 2016: http://www.utc.com/News/Pages/Powerful-Milestones-2016-and-The-F135-Engine.aspx

F-35A and F-35B aircraft achieved initial combat ready status in 2016; F-35C will achieve the same in Spring 2018.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/02/air-force-lifts-f-35a-stealth-fighter-to-combat-ready-status.html
http://www.janes.com/article/63425/usmc-completes-f-35b-operational-tests

F-35A model registered a very impressive 15:1 kill ratio in RED FLAG exercise in 2017 (most realistic, challenging and ambitious exercise of its kind so far), lending further credibility to the claim that it is ready for combat operations worldwide. Overseas deployment is actually happening: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/f-35a-maintainers-demonstrate-global-reach

Holistically, F-35 project is way too ambitious (and complex) for its kind in history and it will not reach its conclusion anytime soon; lot of work in progress. However, it is important to understand that F-35 project has advanced much further than similar Russian and Chinese projects.

Overview of F-35 project: https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts

More importantly, US enjoys a fully operational and mature 5th generation strike platform in F-22 Raptor; F-35 project will add another layer to it. Conversely, Russia and China have a lot of catching to do.


Another disclosure that is outdated with an overblown PRESS RELEASE accompanying it. Such reports are not intended for public consumption; they offer an 'overly critical' view of developments in order to put pressure on the workforce to do its job.

Take note of findings of RED FLAG based trials:

All indications from the pilots and commanders at Red Flag are that the F-35A performed far better than recent reports from the Director of Operational Test and Evaluation seemed to indicate.

The now-departed Director of Operational Test and Evaluation, Michael Gilmore, said the Lockheed Martin-built aircraft is “not effective and not suitable across the required mission areas and against currently fielded threats” and detailed 64 pages of problems, many of them with to do with the aircraft’s software.

The view from Red Flag was quite different. The 13 F-35As maintained a 90 percent mission capable rate during the three-week exercise, respectable for any combat aircraft. Planes did have problems, including one that lost a generator, but every issue was dealt with inside of 24 hours, according to two Air Force officers talking to reporters today at the end of the exercises.

“We flew these jets hard. We flew a ton of missions in Red Flag during those four weeks. I would strongly disagree (with the proposition) that the jets are not ready. We are ready to take these jets on the road whenever we’re asked to,” Lt. Col. George Watkins, 34th Fighter Squadron commander, told us. And he said the 3i software that controls the plane, its weapons, and sensors performed extremely well.

And the mission systems, which enable most of the plane’s combat capabilities, performed beyond pilots’ expectations. “All our mission systems were up every time,” Watkins said, noting that he would often fly his F-16 with one or more of its mission systems down and just have to find work-arounds. “For the F-35 at this Red Flag, every mission system was up every time.”

While Boeing continues to press the Navy to buy F/A-18E/F Super Hornets for the carrier fleet and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis has ordered a review of the carrier version of the Joint Strike fighter, the F-35C, there was no doubt expressed by the pilots at today’s roundtable about whether they would prefer to fly a fourth-generation plane — like the F-16 or F-18 — or a fifth-gen plane like the F-35 for the Air Force: “The capabilities we are bringing are better than a fourth-gen aircraft. I would not want to go back and take an F-16 back into Red Flag,” Watkins said.

By the way, Navy electronic warfare EA-18G Growlers did fly at this Red Flag, with an Australian Wedgetail aircraft, along with British Typhoons, F-16s and F-15Cs.

How did the F-35A fare at striking targets with bombs? They dropped 27 bombs and hit 25 targets “exactly within a foot of where it was supposed to hit.” The two weapons that missed were caused by weapon failures, not the jet, Watkins said.

Although they don’t have an updated figure, the pilots told us that the F-35 kill ratio was higher than the 15-1 figure they initially reported. While F-35A pilots continue to say that their success against Integrated Air Defense Systems and ability to bomb targets is at least as important as their ability to kill enemy fighters, the fact is that the kill ratio is a simple baseline against which the plane can be judged.

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2017/02/f-35a-at-red-flag-90-mission-capable-key-systems-up-every-flight/


It shall be noted that American perception of what constitutes a 5th generation fighter is vastly different from that of standard assumptions in PRESS/MEDIA; stealthy airframe is just an item in the checklist for it. FYI: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/unde...on-system-of-f-35-jsf-for-the-dummies.472240/

PAK-FA, J-31 and J-20 may not be 5th generation fighters as per American criteria but they are marketed as such in PRESS. Only time will tell.


Easier said than done.

Saudi Arabia does not have an advanced aviation industry and relevant R&D program in place. It needs to establish this industry first and only then it would be in the position to commence a domestic 5th generation fighter project. However, this milestone might take lot of years to bear fruit.


I was making a point bro, just because you have problems with your plane doesn't mean that it turns into a 4th gen fighter.
 
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Firstly, I never stated that these planes are not 5th generation, There's no solid criteria for a fighter to be a 5th generation one, every country can build it's aircraft based on it's defensive strategy and call it 5th gen, although there are some basic requirements to be a 5th gen(low RCS, super-cruise ability, and etc), Now if you are not illiterate and can read my post, i said the Russians and the Chinese still cant build their own 5th gen fighter jet so how people here expect KSA to build a 5th gen fighter jet? Maybe next time' i'll dumb it down for you.

Secondly, F-35 is an operational fighter jet, But the vast majority of the orders haven't been delivered yet, there's a difference.
Thirdly, Do you seriously compare F-35, an operational fighter jet, with T-50, J-20 & J-31 whchich are not operational yet? Let's look at the number of 5th gen aircraft built:
F-22: 195 (8 test and 187 operational aircraft)
F-35: 231 as of March 2017
PAK FA: 9 flyable prototypes
J-20: 8 prototypes and 5 low rate initial production fighters
J-31: 3 prototypes
Now if you've passed the first grade and can count to 231 and can tell the difference between these numbers, you can see how stupid your comparison is.
Fourthly, When it come to T-50 and how stealth it is, the last RCS number that came out is 0.5 m² comparing it to F22 RCS which is 0.0001 m² and F-35 RCS which is 0.0013 m² shows that when it comes to being a stealth aircraft, what a complete joke T-50 is. This RSC equates with western 4.5 gen fighters like Eurofighter Typhoon and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet which developed almost two decades ago.
Fifthly, T-50 is using Beylka radar system, which has a low reliability, and two NPO Saturn 117S engines, which are rather weak engines along with it's low maintainability caused us to reduce our order from 220 to 130. Both radar and engine that are two of the major subsystems of the T-50 are the same as those installed in the Su-35. Also, a number of the avionics on-board the T-50 and Su-35 are common. Those that will be part of the production-configuration of the T-50 will more likely than not be only incremental or evolutionary improvements over their analogues on-board the Su-35. Russian announced that new engines for T-50 will be tested at the end of 2017 and will be mass produced on 2025 to 2027, but lately Tass*com, a government controlled news outlet, announced that the engines will be tested on 2018, citing another delay in the project. They still have problems with AESA radars too. The deliveries of T-50 to the Russian Armed Forces may start after 2018, Even Russians themselves have some doubt about T-50 and it's capabilities, that's why they reduced their pre-order from 52 to 12. And when it come to J-20 and J-31, as @UKBengali said, they lack one of the basic requirements of being 5th gen fighter jet, the engine. Unless Chinese manage to come up with WS-15 engine till 2020, which i doubt considering that the Russians are struggling with their engines after all, but you may never know, Chinese never manage to fail to surprise the world.
As i said before, There's no solid criteria for a fighter to be a 5th generation one, but if we consider American's standard as a norm, the rest of the 5th gen projects will be complete jokes. The fact that the PAK FA, J-20 And J-31 are even compared to the F-22 and F-35 is an absolute insult to the engineering marvels that are the F-22 and F-35. Here's a link some articles:
Replace * with .
pastebin*com/jbT4dzSW
Are they enough for you stupid A$$?

Instead of posting some stupid videos and telling me how good i am in my job, you'd better go and discuss how Arabian cuisine tastes like.

KSA can build it's own 5th gen fighter the day pigs can fly.

Yeah, the typical mentality of you guys: We don't have the brains, But we have the money, so it will solve our problems right? Sorry to break it to you guys but it won't, no one is going to hand their cutting edge technology over to you guys just for a few dollars, the only option is that they'll take your money, develop their own next gen fighter jet and then downgrade it to some extent and sell the product back to you, which in case of KSA and the rest of it's gang, this is not the case either.

Riddle me this, KSA can build it's own 50 gen fighter jet but instead when Americans offer them some F-15 at a 29 billion dollars cost, they drop their pants and go for that, i wonder why? Just because the Saudis choose to let Americans rob them out of their money doesn't mean that they aren't capable of building a 5th gen fighter jet by themselves, it means they don't want to. There's no way that this mean they don't have the experience, the industrial power, the material and the brains for building a 5th gen aircraft in the Sandistan.

Says the guy who suck his head in kingdom's sand.

Another stupid joke.

Correction: KSA will have 5th gen bird when 5th gen bird become obsolete, period.
No wonder people look down on you all over the world..
 
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Correction: KSA will have 5th gen bird when 5th gen bird become obsolete, period.
Trust no one, especially not ksa takes more than 10 years to complete joke deal of 36 jets, if they have the money they go for it. They don't drag it and then eat their own vomit in the end like Indians did with their fake ego and pride. Lol
 
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No wonder people look down on you all over the world..
Weren't they crying when Russia denied them source code or blue prints for t-50. They baniya though for mere 4-5 bn they will buy the entire technology. Bloody jokers
 
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Weren't they crying when Russia denied them source code or blue prints for t-50. They baniya though for mere 4-5 bn they will buy the entire technology. Bloody jokers
They think they have the brains, where the father of their missile program was a Muslim, took them 30 years to make a Tank with no success and a another 30 years for a 3rd to 4th generation fighter plane without success either, they forgot they got engines made in Egypt in the 60s for their fighters and the list goes on and on, if one wants the look down on them.. it was not my intention but his comments are way too low and shows how low he is.. I am not even mentioning their dependence on Arab oil or trade, let alone the expats in the GCC.. or the Arab civilisation that governed them for a thousand years..
 
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F-15 is crap? Jesus Christ.

F-15 is a much larger aircraft than Eurofighter Typhoon with superior speed, operational capacity and almost twice the range and payload. Take note:
  • Max speed: 2.5 Mach
  • Max ceiling: 70,000 feet (21,336 m)
  • Max unfueled range: 2,600 nautical miles
  • Max takeoff weight: 81,000 pounds (36,741 kilograms)
  • Max weapons load: 29,500 pounds (13,381 kilograms)
  • Max load factor: 9.0 G’s
  • Combat radius: 1,000 nautical miles (including 20-minute loiter)
To put those specs in a perspective, F-15 is a much more practical aircraft for combat operations than any mid-range aircraft in existence. Even F-35 is not a substitute for it.

And really impressive combat record too: http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/the-combat-statistics-for-all-the-aircraft-currently-in-use.html

You think Saudi are stupid to invest in this platform in-spite of keeping a fleet of Eurofighter Typhoons? They know better.

Israel is also in love with F-15s and this should tell you something.


Maybe not:
Interesting. That much of new engines radars avionics suits with just 84 New Planes?
Looks like they are upgrading the existing fleet of of F15 Eagles too right?
 
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It does not matter much what the Saudis buy...A broken arm will be always a broken arm..
 
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sure hope so.
we are in MPT joint venture currently which is a newer design than alkhled and rest assure this only the beginning.
than there is turkey, i think if pak-GCC-turkey-eygpt join hands(may be malaysia-indonesia too) we can do alot of JV, after all these countries have similar foreign policy agendas and collectively have an economy of 2-3 trillion with nearly a billion population
 
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