Rolls-Royce focusing on defense, nuclear businesses in Turkey

[mike2000 is back]

Exactly, some Eastern European countries are member of EU for decades but they still didnt reach the standarts of western Europe, people here give refugees the shit but when you look at migration in Europe the number of people who migrate from Easter Europe the Western Europe isnt that less either if not even bigger, the reason being no jobs, no opportunities, no perpective...

But then you have countires like Switzerland or Norway who are doing just fine without being EU member so it is indeed about work ethics, laws etc etc.
People portray EU as if it was some kind of Gospel thats naive thinking to say the least.

We have a saying here ''you can put a golden saddle to a donkey, but a donkey stays a donkey'' (no offence).

Well, you are right to some extent. However, you can't completely draw such conclusion about eastern European countries. Don't forget that most of them have similar(for the poorest) if not higher GDP per capital/ living standards than Turkey. Moreover, the fact that they are lacking behind western europe can also be explained with the fact that they gained they were freed from the yoke of the backward communist soviet system less than 30 years ago. Some of them had to went through a rocky transition from a state controlled communist system to capitalist western oriented one in a very short time span, coupled with political turmoil(some even led to small scale conflict/clashes and civil conflict) due to the sudden fall of the U.S.S.R(their colonial power). So this explains why they still lag behind western Europe. It's similar to East and West Germany. The East was far poorer and backward due to its backward soviet communist rule. West Germany had to thread carefully when they got united to the East as the government had to rebalanced the country's development and fund the development of the east so they can catch up with the Western part which they did few decades later.

So i believe Eastern European countries are on the right path. Their accession to the E.U has been very beneficial to them, and it help improve their democracy away from dictatorships, reform their economy and improve their living standards. They are still growing quite healthily, so i believe with time they will catch up with western Europe .

 

[Mr.Department]

Norway

Norway with 385,252 square kilometres and only 5.3 Million population needs immigration cause the birth rate is comparable low. There is no ethical reason, my female cousin studied in Ankara and made her Magister of International Law at Bremen EDU. Her dream was always to immigrate to Scandinavia, she attempted in all Scandinavian countries to get a immigration permission. No chanche. At last she married a Norwegian guy whom she met at Bremen Edu and lives now in Bodö.

 

[xenon54 out]

Well, you are right to some extent. However, you can't completely draw such conclusion about eastern European countries. Don't forget that most of them have similar(for the poorest) if not higher GDP per capital/ living standards than Turkey. Moreover, the fact that they are lacking behind western europe can also be explained with the fact that they gained they were freed from the yoke of the backward communist soviet system less than 30 years ago. Some of them had to went through a rocky transition from a state controlled communist system to capitalist western oriented one in a very short time span, coupled with political turmoil(some even led to small scale conflict/clashes and civil conflict) due to the sudden fall of the U.S.S.R(their colonial power). So this explains why they still lag behind western Europe. It's similar to East and West Germany. The East was far poorer and backward due to its backward soviet communist rule. West Germany had to thread carefully when they got united to the East as the government had to rebalanced the country's development and fund the development of the east so they can catch up with the Western part which they did few decades later.

So i believe Eastern European countries are on the right path. Their accession to the E.U has been very beneficial to them, and it help improve their democracy away from dictatorships, reform their economy and improve their living standards. They are still growing quite healthily, so i believe with time they will catch up with western Europe .

I wasnt comparing them to Turkey to begin with because none of them would survive a environment that Turkey is at right now and for most part of its history, that being said my post is neither anti EU nor denying the postivie effects of EU on those countries.

Germany and Japan had a economic miracle just after WWII, South Korea after Korea War which booth were way bigger tragedy than communism in respective countries, even thought communism in EE was cruel to some extent we should also consider that it also brought industrialisation and organization to those countries.

Some EE countries are already experiencing recession even thought they all hoped for the same economic miracle that happened in Germany, despite that they will keep growing and this growth would probably be less if they werent in EU but will they ever catch Western European standatrs any time soon? I frankly dont think so.

The bottom line of my post is that neither being part of EU gives you a guarantee of welfare nor does not being part of it means downfall.

 

[Mr.Department]

Germany and Japan had a economic miracle just after WWII

Cause of US- finance capital , discipline, human skills and brain power. Germany had a perfect railway, highway and channel network for transport. In comparison to Germany in the 70's Austria wasa poor country without highways or comparable infrastructure.
But after Re-Union 1989 US Finance Capital began to leave Germany. They had profited enough.

 

[mike2000 is back]

I wasnt comparing them to Turkey to begin with because none of them would survive a environment that Turkey is at right now and for most part of its history, that being said my post is neither anti EU nor denying the postivie effects of EU on those countries.

Germany and Japan had a economic miracle just after WWII, South Korea after Korea War which booth were way bigger tragedy than communism in respective countries, even thought communism in EE was cruel to some extent we should also consider that it also brought industrialisation and organization to those countries.

Some EE countries are already experiencing recession even thought they all hoped for the same economic miracle that happened in Germany, despite that they will keep growing and this growth would probably be less if they werent in EU but will they ever catch Western European standatrs any time soon? I frankly dont think so.

The bottom line of my post is that neither being part of EU gives you a guarantee of welfare nor does not being part of it means downfall.

True to some extent. However, You can't compare Germany and Japan (the world's 3rd and 4th Largest economic powers and among the top largest manufacturing nations) with small ex soviet eastern European states. Germany and Japan were already industrialized superpowers before and even after WWII. So they already had everything of a developed adavanced country be it world class educational system, engineering, work ethic, scientific output, manufacturing skilled workforce etc. So they had(and still do) a skilled population and they also had a lot of equipment (railroads, factories, mines, ports). Even when a factory burned to the ground, you had the people and the skills, so they could rebuild faster.
Rebuilding factories is easy if all the basic factors for economic success are still there.
Despite the losses in material and workforce in the war, Germany and Japan still had a highly skilled workforce and significantly scientific knowledge. Additionally, Germany was and still is very decentralized, with many small factories distributed all over the country that had barely been touched by the war. The breakdown of the economy in the last year of the war was not so much caused by destruction of factories, but by shortage of materials and a breakdown of the transportation network. Once the war was over, the infrastructure could be fixed, raw materials could be imported again, and the political environment stabilized.

The problem with East Germany was the inefficient soviet system. Plus, the soviets were not particularly interested in strengthening the economy, quite the opposite. They took whatever industrial equipment they could find as reparations, and since they forced the communists ideology on the administration, much of the skilled workforce that had the means and opportunity fled to the West, leading to a massive brain drain and ultimately the building of the border fences and walls(BERLIN WALL). As a result, the east German economy never recovered to the same degree than the west(even so East Germany was still more advanced than many countries though).

EE countries living conditions has improved alot compared to the past. However, they still need more economic reforms, tackle corruption etc to achieve their full potential. But they are moving forward indeed(and faster thanks to the E.U and easy trade and freedom of movement access they enjoy). Reason other poorer ex soviet countries in eastern Europe want to join the E.U to Russia's fury. lol I agree with your last point though, being in E.U doesn't means you will have a prosperous country automatically,but it does help though especially for a less developed/less advanced country, the main thing is how the country's leaders manage the country and the work ethics they inculcate in the public etc.
As for catching up i didn't mean EE countries will catch up with western europe literally. More like they will close the gap in living standards, so the gap won't be so large to draw so many migrants towards the western parts.
Finally, EE countries are doing well generally growth wise (which is normal giving they are less developed)despite some ups and downs here and there.

https://www.ft.com/content/719bd13a-9178-3bbe-8fc2-24a95fcfc4f1
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...er-in-eu-s-east-as-gdp-growth-seen-quickening

 

[flamer84]

Exactly, some Eastern European countries are member of EU for decades but they still didnt reach the standarts of western Europe, people here give refugees the shit but when you look at migration in Europe the number of people who migrate from Eastern Europe to Western Europe isnt that less either if not even bigger, the reason being no jobs, no opportunities, no perpective...

But then you have countries like Switzerland or Norway who are doing just fine without being EU member so it is indeed about work ethics, laws etc etc.
People portray EU as if it was some kind of Gospel thats naive thinking to say the least.

We have a saying here ''you can put a golden saddle to a donkey, but a donkey stays a donkey'' (no offence).

This "no jobs, no opportunities in EE" is a myth.ROMANIA currently suffers from a lack of labourers which is getting worse but with free borders you just can't stop them from going to salaries 4,5 times higher.

 

[xenon54 out]

This "no jobs, no opportunities in EE" is a myth.ROMANIA currently suffers from a lack of labourers which is getting worse but with free borders you just can't stop them from going to salaries 4,5 times higher.

Well i should have put it like less opportunities and yes the wage gap between east and west is a big problem for EE.

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

...
They dont know that you are still an EU member until at least 2019(it can be extended if all members agree),you could explain article 50 etc.
The deals that have to be made and so on.

There will be no extension in the negotiations. The European Council is going to be ruthless to make clear to those who would be tempted to blackmail that they will have far more to lose than to win when they leave the EU.
From now on, UK will have to have ‘the unanimous agreement of all the members (27)’ to be able importing a simple bolt in its euro zone. It will be taxed without any pity in all commercial sectors because it is no longer a member but a competitor, like the others, of the whole EU.

It is mathematical, what a country of 60 million inhabitants faces an economic zone of more than 440 million inhabitants.


...

 

[-SINAN-]

Are you also infuriated when Turkey,Pakistanis,Chinese,Arab,Iranian news media call ISIS by its name?

I don't know about others but Turkish media never calls them "Islamic State" -> "Islam Devleti".

Our media uses "İŞİD" or "DAEŞ".... if you saw anyone calling them "Islam Devleti" it means that he/she is a supporter of the terrorists.

Same goes with the PKK as well. If you pronounce as "Pekaka" it's normal, but if you pronounce as "Pekeke" it means that you are a supporter of the terrorists.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

well, some people will always hold certain erroneous views about world issues(especially events in the middle east). You say most muslims believe ISIS(some also believe Al Qaeda, Al Shebab, Boko Haram etc) is a U.S/British/French proxy. i.e sponsored and engineered by the West. Well, i have heard that as well, eventhough we all know that's bullocks. Some of these people also belîeve Turkey was/is a main sponsor of ISIS and one of its main benefactors. In fact i have seen people saying ISIS is an Iranian/Israeli creation since ISIS has never attacked these two countries. lol So there you go with all the types of conspiracy theories some people believe, that should have no effect on more sane/credible people. So i don't see why you say our media calling ISIS by it's name is the reason these naive people believe ISIS is a western creation (or for some a Turkish/Israeli/Iranian creation), i fail to see the connection between these two.

We calling ISIS by it's name(something every Muslim country and every member here does.) has nothing to do with Islamophobia. so i don't understand why this infuriates you. Are you also infuriated when Turkey,Pakistanis,Chinese,Arab,Iranian news media call ISIS by its name? So i don't understand your point.We also call Boko Haram by its name,if it was just for islamophobia as you said we will be calling them Islamic state of Boko Haram or nigeria.lol), same with Al shebab, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad group, Muslim brotherhood etc etc. we all call them by their known name, same as we call Lord's resistance army(the ruthless rebel terror group in Uganda) by it's name. So i don't understand how that should infuriate you or muslims.

The media saying ISIS doesn't infuriate me. I say ISIS most the times as well. The Dutch state media saying 'Islamic State' or 'Islamic terrorism'. They don't even say ISIS or IS, they spell it out. This infuriates me, because I think at this point that they are doing this deliberately. Trying to link terrorism with Islam subliminally. Non-Muslims won't notice this, but I as a Muslim do notice it and I don't appreciate it. I choose to not watch the news for this reason because I started to feel alienated. I have seen analysts and reporters pointing out this issue on western media as well by the way, but they seem to ignore it and continue to keep spelling it out.

Now I am aware that ISIS is evil and Islam's biggest enemy. But a Muslim in a more vulnerable state might be more open to ISIS's propaganda and manipulations. My point here is, to fight terrorism we have got to close out every angle that ISIS could use against us. The most effective way to fight them is to close off their human resource supply/block their propaganda.

A lot of Muslims believe ISIS to be a proxy of the west, I didn't comment on whether this conspiracy is correct or not. My point was just to give perspective on what Muslims seem to believe and that the media wasn't exactly helping this issue. I personally never heard about the Iran proxy, but Turkey supporting ISIS rumors came mostly from the west (and Russia during the Jet incident). These rumors started when CIA reported that Turkey was supporting ISIS, but this turned out to be incorrect and CIA as far as I know apologized for this.

Moreover, the vast majority of our people in the west know the majority of muslims here are peaceful and not terrorists, else believe me the situation here will be different with riots ,lynching, adoption of laws to persecute them on a large scale etc. But there is none of that in the vast majority of western countries. In fact Muslims countries are less tolerant,abuse human rights of non-Muslims and Muslims alike far more than anything you can find here. So will that infuriate you to the point of being resentful towards them as well?

I get mad whenever I see media trying to link Islam with terrorism, but I don't get resentful towards anybody. I don't even get mad when I see this from Islamophobic sites etc. But I do get mad when I see it on mainstream media, because I expect better from them. And I think you missed my point, I wasn't critical about western society in my previous post. I even gave an example of my personal life and that I only feel alienated when I watch the news. These kinds of actions from the media has a certain effect on people, I feel alienated but that is just me personally, others can react differently, but ISIS try to use this to their advantage with their propaganda tactics. I know that ISIS is evil, but the next guy might be more vulnerable towards ISIS's propaganda.

There are social issues in every country, everything depends on the government having and implementing laws to tackle and address such issues and prevent others from abusing the law. So i don't see how Wilder's will cause muslims in the Netherlands to hate the country that welcomed and gave them a better life in which they now live in. He hasn't called for violence against Muslims or for them to be killed or whatever. By contrast he walks and live with police and security 24/hours 7 IN HIS OWN COUNTRY since there are some Dutch muslims who have vowed to kill him for his views just like they the case of Kurt Westergaard, the Danish cartoonist who who was the subject of several murder plots by danish muslims for his drawings. Or the case of Swedish artist Lars Vilks, who received death threats and was the subject of a nnumber of assisination attempts after a drawing of his was published in a Swedish newspaper,same with Charlie hebdo etc. Things like this also make some people angry as society there isn't used to seeing people being killed for drawings or for making controversial remarks . So i believe people should be more tolerant towards others views without the need for violence. Afterall, i'm sure Dutch society is very tolerant and muslims are very well treated there ,else there wont be living there anymore, with many more wanting to immigrate to the country. There is only a fringe group who holds radical views like the ones in germany on the link you posted, Government and society there don't tolerate them and they are dealt with by the law/courts.

Think of this, if you insult a group there will always be people who will act extremely. Hell, leave a provoking comment in a youtube video and it will get a bunch of reactions with insults or threats even. And these things went over the world media, so of course there is going to be some backlash. And that is exactly what Wilders wants. He even retweets these sorts of threats and insults on twitter, just so he can propagate and give the impression that all Muslims are like that (I'm serious, this is Wilders's actual strategy).

The thing I said about Wilders wasn't about hating the country for it. It was about this guys presence calling for the need for spawning a counter balance. This guy is about anti-Islam, so Muslims will start feeling the need for a pro-Islamic political party. Normally I saw all political party's as a viable option to govern, but ever since's Wilders's party, I started feeling underrepresented. Now I want to see a counter balance for all the bull Wilders spouts about the religion. I actually don't want to vote for a Islamic party or a party consisting only of minorities, but Wilders is forcing me to vote this way. You understand what I am saying here? Cause and effect.

In this situation, i fail to see how we alienate Muslims here, if they feel alienated here then they will be even more alienated when they travel back to their home countries who have far worse human rights abuses/laws. So to me the 'alienation/oppression' is not a good enough excuse.

You are trying to defend culture/society, that's fair enough. But you don't have to do that with me. Because I wasn't critical about society in my posts. The example from that Facebook post wasn't to critisize anybody, but to point out that hate breeds hate. And the actors in this field (Islamophobic and terrorist groups) will gladly take advantage and make use of this. ISIS and Islamophobia feed each other.

This and my previous post isn't about being critical towards the west, it's about how to (imho) dealing better with ISIS and the likes.

I don't know about others but Turkish media new calls them "Islamic State" -> "Islam Devleti".

Our media uses "İŞİD" or "DAEŞ".... if you saw anyone calling them "Islam Devleti" it means that he/she is a supporter of the terrorists.

Same goes with the PKK as well. If you pronounce as "Pekaka" it's normal, but if you pronounce as "Pekeke" it means that you are a supporter of the terrorists.

I never heard any Turkish news outlet saying "Islam Devleti". Which news news outlet says that? Or was it a typo?

 

[-SINAN-]

I never heard any Turkish news outlet saying "Islam Devleti". Which news news outlet says that? Or was it a typo?

Typo.....

"new" was going to be "never".....

**Corrected.

 

[Saithan]

The media saying ISIS doesn't infuriate me. I say ISIS most the times as well. The Dutch state media saying 'Islamic State' or 'Islamic terrorism'. They don't even say ISIS or IS, they spell it out. This infuriates me, because I think at this point that they are doing this deliberately. Trying to link terrorism with Islam subliminally. Non-Muslims won't notice this, but I as a Muslim do notice it and I don't appreciate it. I choose to not watch the news for this reason because I started to feel alienated. I have seen analysts and reporters pointing out this issue on western media as well by the way, but they seem to ignore it and continue to keep spelling it out.

Now I am aware that ISIS is evil and Islam's biggest enemy. But a Muslim in a more vulnerable state might be more open to ISIS's propaganda and manipulations. My point here is, to fight terrorism we have got to close out every angle that ISIS could use against us. The most effective way to fight them is to close off their human resource supply/block their propaganda.

A lot of Muslims believe ISIS to be a proxy of the west, I didn't comment on whether this conspiracy is correct or not. My point was just to give perspective on what Muslims seem to believe and that the media wasn't exactly helping this issue. I personally never heard about the Iran proxy, but Turkey supporting ISIS rumors came mostly from the west (and Russia during the Jet incident). These rumors started when CIA reported that Turkey was supporting ISIS, but this turned out to be incorrect and CIA as far as I know apologized for this.


I get mad whenever I see media trying to link Islam with terrorism, but I don't get resentful towards anybody. I don't even get mad when I see this from Islamophobic sites etc. But I do get mad when I see it on mainstream media, because I expect better from them. And I think you missed my point, I wasn't critical about western society in my previous post. I even gave an example of my personal life and that I only feel alienated when I watch the news. These kinds of actions from the media has a certain effect on people, I feel alienated but that is just me personally, others can react differently, but ISIS try to use this to their advantage with their propaganda tactics. I know that ISIS is evil, but the next guy might be more vulnerable towards ISIS's propaganda.


Think of this, if you insult a group there will always be people who will act extremely. Hell, leave a provoking comment in a youtube video and it will get a bunch of reactions with insults or threats even. And these things went over the world media, so of course there is going to be some backlash. And that is exactly what Wilders wants. He even retweets these sorts of threats and insults on twitter, just so he can propagate and give the impression that all Muslims are like that (I'm serious, this is Wilders's actual strategy).

The thing I said about Wilders wasn't about hating the country for it. It was about this guys presence calling for the need for spawning a counter balance. This guy is about anti-Islam, so Muslims will start feeling the need for a pro-Islamic political party. Normally I saw all political party's as a viable option to govern, but ever since's Wilders's party, I started feeling underrepresented. Now I want to see a counter balance for all the bull Wilders spouts about the religion. I actually don't want to vote for a Islamic party or a party consisting only of minorities, but Wilders is forcing me to vote this way. You understand what I am saying here? Cause and effect.

You are trying to defend culture/society, that's fair enough. But you don't have to do that with me. Because I wasn't critical about society in my posts. The example from that Facebook post wasn't to critisize anybody, but to point out that hate breeds hate. And the actors in this field (Islamophobic and terrorist groups) will gladly take advantage and make use of this. ISIS and Islamophobia feed each other.

This and my previous post isn't about being critical towards the west, it's about how to (imho) dealing better with ISIS and the likes.


I never heard any Turkish news outlet saying "Islam Devleti". Which news news outlet says that? Or was it a typo?

Well written. It's similar here in Denmark, and even if your best buddies are danish they still eat up what they're being presented by their own media and western media. Even my best buddy walks around talking about Turkey supporting ISIS, despite the CIA apology. I find them so gullible, despite being taught in school that they should be questioning everything.

The referendum was another example, and what was not conveyed to the public properly was the limitations on the president and parlament. The politicians didn't even say properly themselves, nor did the president.

The best answer to such things are having english news website like Daily Sabah, Hurriyet, and Zaman (used to be), I always read the news from many different sources and I prefer the news outlet not being from the same political camp. I just recently saw that YeniSafak also has english version now which is about bloody time. I guess the Turkish news outlets have discovered that if they want their voices heard they need english.