Rheinmetall releases Panther KF51 Main Battle Tank

[waz]

This thread has nothing do with any other armed forces or their weapons.
I’ll delete and thread ban anything else.

I’ve just seen the pile of posts after the original drone post, it’s massive! Please go open another thread entitled drone v tank.
Stop ruining threads with all this off-topic nonsense.

 

[Foinikas]

This thread has nothing do with any other armed forces or their weapons.
I’ll delete and thread ban anything else.

I’ve just seen the pile of posts after the original drone post, it’s massive! Please go open another thread entitled drone v tank.
Stop ruining threads with all this off-topic nonsense.

Man,you know who's been non-stop spamming his stuff for weeks on end now...I mean come on. I got banned from posting in his thread and told I should put him on ignore. Instead of everyone putting him on ignore,why shouldn't he be banned or something? He's not here to debate or discuss.

Anyway...counter-measures for UCAVs are being developed and APS systems are being installed on tanks. After the war in Ukraine it's obvious that tanks are still very useful,but need protection from top-down attacks and UAV style attacks.

There were instances in Ukraine were Russian tanks resisted AT attacks and their armor was good,but the top-down attacks...their slat armor couldn't stop them of course.

 

[jhungary]

The difference is Kamikaze planes have a lot more mass to do damage with and their target is much larger and harder to miss.

Hitting a suicide drone will at the very least make it miss the target.

Well, depends on your effective range, if you are within maybe 50 ft away, it don't do much because the bulk of the drone are going to be on you or about to get on your tank anyway. And APS don't really have the range to flick those suicide drone from afar.

On the other hand, unlike Kamikazi with plane, drone are inexpensive, it cost less than $10,000 for a Switchblade 600, so chances are you are going to be swarm by those thing, which making the entire Active Defence a moot point.

 

[TheTallGuy]

Unveiling a new tank in time when the era of tanks is coming to an end as recent conflict in Ukraine has shown...

In the near future new ATGMs and new suicide drones and loitering munitions will turn tanks into an obsolete piece of metal worth 10mln dollars.

View attachment 853770

Same thing was said in aftermath of 1973 Arab-Israel War when facing AT3 "Sagger" same thing was said when Hizbullah ATGM snipers targeted Merkava in 2006.
Main Battle Tank is an integral part of Maneuver Warfare.

what you are suggesting wholesale replacement with what?
Just hold on..in future you will see Counter measures to ATGMs and UCAV.
what happening to Russia is as per my understanding they have not fully committed (geo-politacal issues) there army for large scale operations. if they start with deep operations and massive pincers in proper...Ukraine resistance will cease to exist and invite foreigners in proper on ground.

 

[waz]

@Messerschmitt are you native German friend?

 

[Super Falcon]

German masterpiece they are the best tank designers in entire world

 

[Paul2]

Autoloaders have a lot of disadvantages. 1 less crewman to service the tank (The actual hard thing to do), operate the communication equipment, operate some secondary armament.

1 more crewman to train. Ideally, you want to have a 1 man tank, and maybe 2 man for a command vehicle. Or a no-man tank at all.

Trained crews are extremely precious, and you want to maximise the bang for buck.

As Ukraine war shows, training facilities are an extreme bottleneck during a war. They packed barracks full of recruits, and the next day a ballistic missile strike comes.

 

[Hydration]

@Messerschmitt are you native German friend?

Ive only seen him on iranian threads if thats anything suspicous

 

[Amaa'n]

@White and Green with M/S You know he's got issues,but the mods will not ban him. He's been pissing off everyone the last 2 weeks and yet my advice from a mod was "to put him on ignore". The guy spams all the time and constantly talks with extreme arrogance and insults. Even if you show him legit arguements,he ignores it and continues to brag about Turkish superiority.

you need to report the post that violates forum rules not some random posts

 

[Foinikas]

you need to report the post that violates forum rules not some random posts

The other day I reported various posts of him where he constantly spams the same things,the same photos and other posts where he insults me and others and is being racist. The result was,some of his posts got deleted and I was told to put him on ignore

Same thing was said in aftermath of 1973 Arab-Israel War when facing AT3 "Sagger" same thing was said when Hizbullah ATGM snipers targeted Merkava in 2006.
Main Battle Tank is an integral part of Maneuver Warfare.

what you are suggesting wholesale replacement with what?
Just hold on..in future you will see Counter measures to ATGMs and UCAV.
what happening to Russia is as per my understanding they have not fully committed (geo-politacal issues) there army for large scale operations. if they start with deep operations and massive pincers in proper...Ukraine resistance will cease to exist and invite foreigners in proper on ground.

Exactly! Various countries have already developed counter-measures for drones.

 

[BON PLAN]

I doubt any tank has the same survivability as the Merkava.

Markava has a special design, wich is a strengh and a weakness : The motor and gear box is on the front of the MBT. So a bullet or a misile, to kill the crew, has to penetrate the hull AND the engine compartment. Hard !
But the weakness is that the heat of the engine disturbs the electro optical system of the tank => less accuracy. It is probably why the canon is not a L52 but a L44.

Official Rheinmetall Website Informations about this tank. I Translated to English (DeepL translator):

Original Link from Rheinmetall

Battle tank Panther KF51

The future of the main battle tank
The Panther is the first of its kind: a radical new main battle tank concept whose development was not constrained by yesterday's technologies. Based on some of the latest technological approaches, the Panther has been designed from the ground up to cover the following aspects:

Maximum impact on the battlefield combined with a

• survivability concept and through a
• fully digitized NGVA data backbone, which leads to next-generation
• Next-generation operational capability and automation.
• This enables crew reduction and paves the way for unmanned turret options and man-machine teaming.

View attachment 853807

Highly effective

Rheinmetall's proprietary 130 mm Future Gun System (FGS) and optimized sensor-shooter network deliver rapid engagement and high-level on-target effectiveness.

Outstanding protection

The first main battle tank to employ an integrated survivability concept with sensors on and off the platform as well as active, reactive and passive protection technologies and a special protection system against attacks from above (Top Attack).

Fully digitized

The Panther is the first main battle tank based on a digital architecture that complies with the NGVA standard. This is the key requirement for future decision support and automation systems

View attachment 853808

Effect on target
The Panther fulfills the "Dominate and Destroy" core capability. With the Rheinmetall Future Gun System, consisting of a 130 mm gun, a fully automatic ammunition delivery system and additional armament options such as HERO 120 loitering ammunition, the Panther has concentrated firepower for superior effect at long ranges as well as when engaging multiple targets.

Rarely has the sheer power of a main battle tank gun been so impressive. The Future Gun System developed by Rheinmetall enables a 50 percent longer range (than 120 mm) at an unrivaled high cadence due to the autoloader. A 12.7 mm coaxial machine gun complements the main weapon system. Multiple options for remotely controlled weapon station (RCWS) integration provide flexibility for close-in defense and drone countermeasures. Optional HERO 120 loitering ammunition extends the Panther's strike capability to targets beyond direct line of sight. An LM launcher can be fitted depending on the role and mission requirements.

All weapons are linked to the targeting optics and fire control computer via the fully digitized architecture, enabling `hunter-killer' and `killer-killer' procedures, seamless target engagement and future AI decision support.


Survivability
The Panther features a groundbreaking, fully integrated, comprehensive and weight-optimized survivability concept. In addition to traditional measures, the Panther's digital architecture enables on-board and off-board survivability, with active, reactive and passive protection technologies.

The Panther is equipped with a pre-shot detection capability that allows it to strike first. Threats from above are countered by Rheinmetall's TAPS (Top Attack Protection System). The ROSY fast fog protection system is part of the survivability system, which is fully integrated into the digitized architecture and enables additional defensive measures. The outstanding feature of the survivability is undoubtedly the active KE protection, which increases the level of protection without compromising the system weight.

As a system designed to operate in a contested electromagnetic spectrum, the Panther is fully cyber-hardened.

Reactive and passive protection

• Sensor-based reactive system
• Passive protection

Active protection

• Protection against KE balancing ammunition
• Protection against ATGM

ROSY fast fog protection system

Top Attack Protection System (TAPS)

Mine protection

Rheinmetall drones

Pre-shot detection capability

Mobility
The operational weight of only 59 tons provides far greater mobility than current systems can offer. This makes the Panther one of the most combat-ready systems and allows it to fit into the AMovP-4L tunnel profile without preparation - a requirement no current main battle tank can meet. Consequently, the Panther excels in tactical and strategic mobility.

Combat weight: < 50 t

Range: > 500 km

Fits the AMovP-4L tunnel profile

The concept
The Panther is a truly software-defined tank fully capable of collecting, processing and distributing information on the multidomain battlefield. The integration of advanced BMS and software-defined communications systems enables forces to operate in collaborative combat environments, such as cross-platform sensor-shooter networks.

The Panther is designed to control assigned unmanned aerial vehicles such as onboard or offboard drones, loitering munitions and a range of unmanned ground vehicles.

The fully digitized system and common operator stations enable true human-machine teaming and control of unmanned systems covering capabilities such as anti-aircraft and drone defense at platoon level.

Leadership
Based on the needs of the crew, we have developed operator stations that are unmatched in their integration.

The Panther is designed for a crew of three, supporting future force structures with a smaller number of soldiers. The chassis houses two operator stations for the crew, one for the driver and an optional operator station for the company commander, a drone operator or a wingman pilot.

The fully digitized NGVA architecture enables seamless integration of sensors and effectors both within the platform and across platforms. Sensor and weapon control tasks can be instantly passed between crewmembers. Each operator station can take over tasks and roles from others without limiting functionality. Because turret and weapons control can also be performed at chassis-based operator stations, unmanned turrets and remotely controlled Panthers are also planned for the future.

Partnership potential
Become part of the Panther Leap and help shape the system. With Rheinmetall's innovative development approach, users, repairers, logisticians and procurement experts from all current and future user nations can actively shape the future of the Panther together.

Rheinmetall has many years of experience in building global product supply chains and working with user nations to create substantial national industrial content and sovereign capabilities.

The main weakness of this design is the cannon.
130mm may be too less for the future targets as Armata.
This 130mm is said to have 30% more energy at the muzzle than previous 120mm one.
The 140mm cannon, already developped by Germany and France 20 or 30 years ago, has 70% more punch. And maybe more with the new ASCALON project.

This 21st century Panther is a Leo2 chassis with a new turret so as to fit the Rheinmetal 130mm gun. A gun that is not fully developped....

 

[Beny Karachun]

But the weakness is that the heat of the engine disturbs the electro optical system of the tank => less accuracy. It is probably why the canon is not a L52 but a L44.

It's not correct though lol, it's a myth, I have friends which are tank crews and they said it's never happened.

Merkava uses L44 because L55 bends quickly in the heat of the desert.

Most IFVs have the engine in the front and no one has ever reported on this disruption of the thermal optics problem

 

[Foinikas]

Official Rheinmetall Website Informations about this tank. I Translated to English (DeepL translator):

Original Link from Rheinmetall

Battle tank Panther KF51

The future of the main battle tank
The Panther is the first of its kind: a radical new main battle tank concept whose development was not constrained by yesterday's technologies. Based on some of the latest technological approaches, the Panther has been designed from the ground up to cover the following aspects:

Maximum impact on the battlefield combined with a

• survivability concept and through a
• fully digitized NGVA data backbone, which leads to next-generation
• Next-generation operational capability and automation.
• This enables crew reduction and paves the way for unmanned turret options and man-machine teaming.

View attachment 853807

Highly effective

Rheinmetall's proprietary 130 mm Future Gun System (FGS) and optimized sensor-shooter network deliver rapid engagement and high-level on-target effectiveness.

Outstanding protection

The first main battle tank to employ an integrated survivability concept with sensors on and off the platform as well as active, reactive and passive protection technologies and a special protection system against attacks from above (Top Attack).

Fully digitized

The Panther is the first main battle tank based on a digital architecture that complies with the NGVA standard. This is the key requirement for future decision support and automation systems

View attachment 853808

Effect on target
The Panther fulfills the "Dominate and Destroy" core capability. With the Rheinmetall Future Gun System, consisting of a 130 mm gun, a fully automatic ammunition delivery system and additional armament options such as HERO 120 loitering ammunition, the Panther has concentrated firepower for superior effect at long ranges as well as when engaging multiple targets.

Rarely has the sheer power of a main battle tank gun been so impressive. The Future Gun System developed by Rheinmetall enables a 50 percent longer range (than 120 mm) at an unrivaled high cadence due to the autoloader. A 12.7 mm coaxial machine gun complements the main weapon system. Multiple options for remotely controlled weapon station (RCWS) integration provide flexibility for close-in defense and drone countermeasures. Optional HERO 120 loitering ammunition extends the Panther's strike capability to targets beyond direct line of sight. An LM launcher can be fitted depending on the role and mission requirements.

All weapons are linked to the targeting optics and fire control computer via the fully digitized architecture, enabling `hunter-killer' and `killer-killer' procedures, seamless target engagement and future AI decision support.


Survivability
The Panther features a groundbreaking, fully integrated, comprehensive and weight-optimized survivability concept. In addition to traditional measures, the Panther's digital architecture enables on-board and off-board survivability, with active, reactive and passive protection technologies.

The Panther is equipped with a pre-shot detection capability that allows it to strike first. Threats from above are countered by Rheinmetall's TAPS (Top Attack Protection System). The ROSY fast fog protection system is part of the survivability system, which is fully integrated into the digitized architecture and enables additional defensive measures. The outstanding feature of the survivability is undoubtedly the active KE protection, which increases the level of protection without compromising the system weight.

As a system designed to operate in a contested electromagnetic spectrum, the Panther is fully cyber-hardened.

Reactive and passive protection

• Sensor-based reactive system
• Passive protection

Active protection

• Protection against KE balancing ammunition
• Protection against ATGM

ROSY fast fog protection system

Top Attack Protection System (TAPS)

Mine protection

Rheinmetall drones

Pre-shot detection capability

Mobility
The operational weight of only 59 tons provides far greater mobility than current systems can offer. This makes the Panther one of the most combat-ready systems and allows it to fit into the AMovP-4L tunnel profile without preparation - a requirement no current main battle tank can meet. Consequently, the Panther excels in tactical and strategic mobility.

Combat weight: < 50 t

Range: > 500 km

Fits the AMovP-4L tunnel profile

The concept
The Panther is a truly software-defined tank fully capable of collecting, processing and distributing information on the multidomain battlefield. The integration of advanced BMS and software-defined communications systems enables forces to operate in collaborative combat environments, such as cross-platform sensor-shooter networks.

The Panther is designed to control assigned unmanned aerial vehicles such as onboard or offboard drones, loitering munitions and a range of unmanned ground vehicles.

The fully digitized system and common operator stations enable true human-machine teaming and control of unmanned systems covering capabilities such as anti-aircraft and drone defense at platoon level.

Leadership
Based on the needs of the crew, we have developed operator stations that are unmatched in their integration.

The Panther is designed for a crew of three, supporting future force structures with a smaller number of soldiers. The chassis houses two operator stations for the crew, one for the driver and an optional operator station for the company commander, a drone operator or a wingman pilot.

The fully digitized NGVA architecture enables seamless integration of sensors and effectors both within the platform and across platforms. Sensor and weapon control tasks can be instantly passed between crewmembers. Each operator station can take over tasks and roles from others without limiting functionality. Because turret and weapons control can also be performed at chassis-based operator stations, unmanned turrets and remotely controlled Panthers are also planned for the future.

Partnership potential
Become part of the Panther Leap and help shape the system. With Rheinmetall's innovative development approach, users, repairers, logisticians and procurement experts from all current and future user nations can actively shape the future of the Panther together.

Rheinmetall has many years of experience in building global product supply chains and working with user nations to create substantial national industrial content and sovereign capabilities.

Epic. Rheinmetall has a long tradition,like you said,many years of experience and is also a master in the art of armor and engineering.

Two questions:

1.What's with the loitering munitions? How do they work being fired from a tank?
2.Can we just remove that ugly thermal sleeve that ruins the whole tank's beauty?

 

[reflecthofgeismar]

Problem is,we have 501 Leopard 1A5,390 M48A5 MOLF and about 80-88 M60s left. We need to replace all that.

Leopard 1A5 has great mobility and a good FCS,but the armor is tragic. Of course now with ATGMs and drones,even the modern tanks can be destroyed easily,but it's better to have modern tanks.

You don't need 1to1 replacement.
Better concentrate on high tech army than larger with old equipment.
400-500 Leopard 2A"8" would be better than all the NOW available tanks for Greece.
You should have more KF41 Lynx.
Same number in the IFV variant as THEN upgraded Leo2.
+ KF41 Lynx in different variants (IFV with SAME turret(s) as your new 8x8 VBCI 2.
So IFV, (double)Mortar or minimum NEMO, AA, Loitering (mass) launcher etc.

All your M113 should be upgraded by FFG and be upgraded to
IFV
Mortar
ATGM/Dedicated TH/TD (Spike NLOS Mk 5 or higher, Mk 6 is out soon)
Loitering (mass) launcher
Command vehicle

BTW
What happened to the VBCI 2 in the English Wiki?

List of equipment of the Hellenic Army - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Last time I checked it was under the

"Future procurements/projects"?​

 

[Beny Karachun]

Epic. Rheinmetall has a long tradition,like you said,many years of experience and is also a master in the art of armor and engineering.

Two questions:

1.What's with the loitering munitions? How do they work being fired from a tank?
2.Can we just remove that ugly thermal sleeve that ruins the whole tank's beauty?

1. Hero 120, Israeli suicide drones. Basically fired from above the turret, controlled by a 4th crewman from what I understood

2. Only if you want the whole cannon to bend down after a short while in the heat lmao

Well, depends on your effective range, if you are within maybe 50 ft away, it don't do much because the bulk of the drone are going to be on you or about to get on your tank anyway. And APS don't really have the range to flick those suicide drone from afar.

On the other hand, unlike Kamikazi with plane, drone are inexpensive, it cost less than $10,000 for a Switchblade 600, so chances are you are going to be swarm by those thing, which making the entire Active Defence a moot point.

APS will most likely predetonate the warheads of the drones. From the Switchblade footage in Ukraine it seems like the Trophy definitely could intercept it, as it didn't come from a very extreme angle.

Drone swarms are a threat. The only effective way to bring them down is electronic jamming or some very quick, very high capacity APS. It's beyond my knowledge though.