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Revolution in Pakistan?

:sniper:WELL, as pakistanis are getting desprte for thier bright future, there is no hope, no activities....... nothing to rely on? it is quite logical to think about a solution which can bring pakistan back on the world stage.
the REVOLUTION!!! which is the topic of this important post is certnly in the minds of every pakistani.. but who can bring it, common people.... politicians...... miltry might, or a mixture of them.

MUSHARAF, seemingly on the back seat !!! watching all this happening in the country and undoing all of his actions, which he took back in the last 7 years. well MR, MUSHARAF had already losted his capability to swing the ball! & was bieng seen a tooth less TIGER cant do anything more.
what are the chances, of that REVOLUTION, being lanched... and wht canbe its resources, i am 1000% sure that people of pakistan wanted that revolution, but they arent ready to participte in that ,,,,now its the responsiblty of militry to bring back the order back in the country!!!!! but with the different approch.... most recnt example is of BANGLADESH... where militry took the control of the country and they are going closer to CHINA and its, style of govt...!!
i wish that our miltry can do the same........ with more perfection.:smitten::pakistan::china::welcome::sniper:::usflag:
 
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Let's not come with preconceived notions about what a revolution is and should be.

Zyxius,

Valid point, and I admit that I did indeed have a preconception of your suggestion of revolution as some sort of mob rule overthrowing the current order.

That said, I think that we have a half decent system in place already - what we need to do is tweak it to get rid of the bottlenecks and inefficiencies, and as I said earlier, empower ordinary Pakistanis to make decisions that can move us in that direction.
 
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Zyxius,

Valid point, and I admit that I did indeed have a preconception of your suggestion of revolution as some sort of mob rule overthrowing the current order.

That said, I think that we have a half decent system in place already - what we need to do is tweak it to get rid of the bottlenecks and inefficiencies, and as I said earlier, empower ordinary Pakistanis to make decisions that can move us in that direction.

Actually, the system today is totally monopolized and this has to be overcome. Let me give you an example:

The rural factor and the feudal class really skews the system. Lets say you have an XYZ Allah Bachao Sindhi dude who is a big land lord in a rural area of Sindh. What these people will do is take the National Identity Cards of the people that they have a physical hold over. This can number in the tens of thousands in each area...and if you notice how slim the margins are by which the parties won these NA seats...you realize its only differences of a few tens of thousands that is making the difference. Very few candidates got more than 70,000 votes from their area in order to win the seat. They also use extortion tactics to raise money, then use this money to bus in these poor people whose identity cards they've held until they vote. this kind of MANAGED election process that is actually monopolized can never be contested by ordinary and fair forces of democracy. Also...getting your name on the electoral roll is a major challenge...you really have to jump through hoops to get that...but if you are with one of these corrupt parties, they will get your name on the list without you even knowing.

In MQM areas they actually send their thugs to peoples' homes to force the men of the house to join their rallies, and to go and vote during election day at the MQM booth.

For anyone to think that some ordinary people who are sincere to the country can participate in the process and make a change would be quite naive. Unless some overwhelming movement or revolution takes place, this current monopolization of the processes and systems of representation will simply continue until things come to a definite dead end where crisis and desperation overtakes complacency.
 
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Actually, the system today is totally monopolized and this has to be overcome. Let me give you an example:

The rural factor and the feudal class really skews the system. Lets say you have an XYZ Allah Bachao Sindhi dude who is a big land lord in a rural area of Sindh. What these people will do is take the National Identity Cards of the people that they have a physical hold over. This can number in the tens of thousands in each area...and if you notice how slim the margins are by which the parties won these NA seats...you realize its only differences of a few tens of thousands that is making the difference. Very few candidates got more than 70,000 votes from their area in order to win the seat. They also use extortion tactics to raise money, then use this money to bus in these poor people whose identity cards they've held until they vote. this kind of MANAGED election process that is actually monopolized can never be contested by ordinary and fair forces of democracy. Also...getting your name on the electoral roll is a major challenge...you really have to jump through hoops to get that...but if you are with one of these corrupt parties, they will get your name on the list without you even knowing.

In MQM areas they actually send their thugs to peoples' homes to force the men of the house to join their rallies, and to go and vote during election day at the MQM booth.

For anyone to think that some ordinary people who are sincere to the country can participate in the process and make a change would be quite naive. Unless some overwhelming movement or revolution takes place, this current monopolization of the processes and systems of representation will simply continue until things come to a definite dead end where crisis and desperation overtakes complacency.

Zyxius,

Are are asking 'ordinary people' to take part in some 'overwhelming movement or revolution', yet discrediting the idea of bringing about change from within the system?

When I talk about empowering people, it isn't just limited to educating them or giving them information on how to vote - it is about freeing them from the clutches of Wadera's, Sardar's and Zamindar's, it is about reforming the electoral process, it is about reforming law enforcement and the judicial system.

It is about finding leaders and setting up parties (you will have to find leaders for any revolution anyway) who are in tune with the peoples interests, and mobilizing the masses to vote for those that serve their interests, and will bring about change.
 
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Zyxius,

Are are asking 'ordinary people' to take part in some 'overwhelming movement or revolution', yet discrediting the idea of bringing about change from within the system?

When I talk about empowering people, it isn't just limited to educating them or giving them information on how to vote - it is about freeing them from the clutches of Wadera's, Sardar's and Zamindar's, it is about reforming the electoral process, it is about reforming law enforcement and the judicial system.

It is about finding leaders and setting up parties (you will have to find leaders for any revolution anyway) who are in tune with the peoples interests, and mobilizing the masses to vote for those that serve their interests, and will bring about change.

ok...so how do we free people from the clutches of the Fuedals/Zameendars? These people occupy almost every position of importance in the country and they are the ones who keep coming back because of their landholdings and the people that this enables them to directly control.
How is this cycle broken?
 
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ok...so how do we free people from the clutches of the Fuedals/Zameendars? These people occupy almost every position of importance in the country and they are the ones who keep coming back because of their landholdings and the people that this enables them to directly control.
How is this cycle broken?

Since you are going to have to 'motivate/incite' a huge amount of people to participate and bring about change in such a revolution anyway, why is it not possible to similarly 'motivate/incite' people to vote against the traditional interests for parties/individuals who are sincere about changing the system?
 
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^^Well in France, they put feudal lords, Church leaders and other men that represented the old system to the guillotine.
 
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ok...so how do we free people from the clutches of the Fuedals/Zameendars? These people occupy almost every position of importance in the country and they are the ones who keep coming back because of their landholdings and the people that this enables them to directly control.
How is this cycle broken?

Excellent question; albeit a loaded one. I'm fairly certain that there is no one definitive answer or anything resembling a quick fix to this situation. I think it will be a long term project which works towards attaining the following objectives:
1. Promoting land reform whereby caps are put on how much land wealthy feudals can have in private holdings. They should get reimbursed a pre set amount for any land they have to relinquish (beyond the cut off).

2. Agrarian labor management. Private ownership of agricultural plots should be promoted in addition to cooperative farming. Labor employed by wealthy Zamindars and private mega corporations should be unionized.

3. Only retain the necessary manpower for agriculture instead of making it a receptacle for the generically unskilled and uneducated populace living in rural regions.

Education and technology integration are central to making any moves towards a program of this sort.
 
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^^Well in France, they put feudal lords, Church leaders and other men that represented the old system to the guillotine.

Mob rule isn't necessary.

We have a free media - use it, use the international press, use international observers and petition and protest for international pressure to ensure free and fair elections.

Make sure that candidates representing change (feels corny saying that after all of Obama's rhetoric) are standing for election, mobilize the people to vote for those candidates and makes sure their vote counts.

That is the revolution we need, one that is self sustaining, because once you break the cycle, once we have our free and fair elections with the masses mobilized and honest and sincere candidates running, it will be almost impossible to reverse the tide.

However, I think mob rule may become necessary in situations such as that in Zimbabwe...
 
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Mob rule isn't necessary.

We have a free media - use it, use the international press, use international observers and petition and protest for international pressure to ensure free and fair elections.

Make sure that candidates representing change (feels corny saying that after all of Obama's rhetoric) are standing for election, mobilize the people to vote for those candidates and makes sure their vote counts.

That is the revolution we need, one that is self sustaining, because once you break the cycle, once we have our free and fair elections with the masses mobilized and honest and sincere candidates running, it will be almost impossible to reverse the tide.

However, I think mob rule may become necessary in situations such as that in Zimbabwe...

But how are you going to get so-called honest candidates to win votes? Politicians need funding, money, publicity. Money doesn't come free. Politicians take money in return for favours.
How do you finance a candidate with clean money?

Also, politicians can woo masses with empty promises, fierce rhetoric and other tools of the demagogue. Will your 'honest' candidates posses the Machiavellian mindset needed to beat the system through the system?
A candidate who speaks the truth all the time will never win any votes. People don't want truth. They want dreams and fantasies. They want to hear what makes them feel good.

A national leader is just one man. He needs the support of countless foot-soldiers whose flexible principles make them vulnerable to the lure of riches. Will this leader be able to attract the crucial support of such lesser leaders? Or will he be discarded as an idealist who is of no use to anyone?

The fact is that politics is a dirty game. There are very few who enter the playing field and win with a clear conscience. You need to befriend everybody: Murderers, Rapists, Gangsters, Bandits, Smugglers, Traffickers, Sons and Daughters of powerful men. You need to give and take favours, and sometimes, you need to eliminate opponents.

This is why people lose faith in the system and scream for a revolution......where a sizeable population unites behind a man who they know is the One. The man who will deliver salvation. The man who will eliminate all the riff-raff, all the hangers-on, the pathetic leeches who suck the blood of society. That's why we have civil wars.
 
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But how are you going to get so-called honest candidates to win votes? Politicians need funding, money, publicity. Money doesn't come free. Politicians take money in return for favours.
How do you finance a candidate with clean money?

Also, politicians can woo masses with empty promises, fierce rhetoric and other tools of the demagogue. Will your 'honest' candidates posses the Machiavellian mindset needed to beat the system through the system?
A candidate who speaks the truth all the time will never win any votes. People don't want truth. They want dreams and fantasies. They want to hear what makes them feel good.

A national leader is just one man. He needs the support of countless foot-soldiers whose flexible principles make them vulnerable to the lure of riches. Will this leader be able to attract the crucial support of such lesser leaders? Or will he be discarded as an idealist who is of no use to anyone?

The fact is that politics is a dirty game. There are very few who enter the playing field and win with a clear conscience. You need to befriend everybody: Murderers, Rapists, Gangsters, Bandits, Smugglers, Traffickers, Sons and Daughters of powerful men. You need to give and take favours, and sometimes, you need to eliminate opponents.

This is why people lose faith in the system and scream for a revolution......where a sizeable population unites behind a man who they know is the One. The man who will deliver salvation. The man who will eliminate all the riff-raff, all the hangers-on, the pathetic leeches who suck the blood of society. That's why we have civil wars.

Flint,

I am offering this as an alternative to 'revolution that overturns the system'. Any mass movement will require resources, however the expense and losses of a 'revolution' that destroys the system from without, dwarfs the cost of a 'revolution' from within.

When we speak about 'leaders', people will have to put their faith in leaders for a 'violent revolution' as well, who is to determine the direction of such a revolution after all? Who gets to determine who is slaughtered at the guillotine? Or is what you want a repeat of the Rwandan genocide?

My argument is that screaming for a 'revolution overturning the current order' may be cathartic at some level, but the current status of the system in Pakistan allows for changes to be made from within the system, with less effort than a full fledged 'revolution'.
 
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Flint,

I am offering this as an alternative to 'revolution that overturns the system'. Any mass movement will require resources, however the expense and losses of a 'revolution' that destroys the system from without, dwarfs the cost of a 'revolution' from within.

When we speak about 'leaders', people will have to put their faith in leaders for a 'violent revolution' as well, who is to determine the direction of such a revolution after all? Who gets to determine who is slaughtered at the guillotine? Or is what you want a repeat of the Rwandan genocide?

My argument is that screaming for a 'revolution overturning the current order' may be cathartic at some level, but the current status of the system in Pakistan allows for changes to be made from within the system, with less effort than a full fledged 'revolution'.

I am not endorsing the idea of a violent revolution, I am merely describing the thinking behind it.

A revolution happens when a large majority of people put their faith in a leader or an ideology, or both, who cannot come to power through the normal process. That's all. Unless Zyxius here can win the hearts of millions, his dreams of revolution will never come true.

How, is anybody to make changes in Pakistan? The Judiciary, the last hope of the people, has been tampered with to such an extent that it cannot take a principled stand against the ruling party.

if you're looking for an honest politician, you will never find one. Its an oxymoron. However, the vigilance of the citizens will ensure that their leaders are on a short leash.
 
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I am not endorsing the idea of a violent revolution, I am merely describing the thinking behind it.

A revolution happens when a large majority of people put their faith in a leader or an ideology, or both, who cannot come to power through the normal process. That's all. Unless Zyxius here can win the hearts of millions, his dreams of revolution will never come true.

How, is anybody to make changes in Pakistan? The Judiciary, the last hope of the people, has been tampered with to such an extent that it cannot take a principled stand against the ruling party.

if you're looking for an honest politician, you will never find one. Its an oxymoron. However, the vigilance of the citizens will ensure that their leaders are on a short leash.

I view the system in Pakistan as being one that is 'newly born', since there has never been continuity. There is no guarantee that there will be continuity in the future either, but that is why I argue against more 'coups' or martial law or 'revolution overturning the entire system' or even Musharraf using his powers under the constitution to dismiss the government legally (unless of course this government give the US the green light to foray into FATA, then they deserve to go down in flames).

Takes time to make a democratic process work, especially when you have all of the baggage that South Asian nations tend to carry - I would argue that the slow evolution of the political system and institutions in India is a good example of continuity of the process bringing about change.
 
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Islam is defintely a strong component of experience of being Pakistani, but certainly not the only one - I have friends who migrated from GOA in India when Pakistan was created and stongly identify with being Pakistani, one of the things that Pakistanis have i common, in my opinon, is ihe idea of being "face against the wind" --Pakistanis in my experience, strongly identify with the "underdog" in any situation - this idea does not have so much to do with Islam, but so notion of Justice that I think prevalent, existed long before Islam did. Ran acros the pice below, I thought it may belong in this debate and I hope Zy will take some note of it:

Cultural roots of militancy
Rasul Bakhsh Rais



The challenges we face today are too many, too complex and too threatening to be handled effectively by one political party. Let me broadly divide these challenges into three categories: militancy and violence; deteriorating economic situation; and poor governance.

Militancy and violence is the foremost of these issues.

The present stock of rulers may say that they have inherited many of these problems from the previous government, who is greatly responsible for what we face today. But this is no more convincing an argument than it was about four months ago. A period of one hundred days is more than enough to at least show that things that were bad have actually begun to change.

It is equally true that these problems are such that we cannot expect their resolution in a mere four months, and perhaps not even in a year or two.

But there are other measures of success or failure of a government even if it has inherited problems: have good policies at least been initiated; have worsening trends been arrested?

There is an emerging view that casts doubts on the leadership quality and political capacity of the elected government to understand the terrible nature of militancy. We know its roots, genealogy, extremity and its transnational entanglement with global Jihad.

The emergence of any group that is armed, organised and wants to run its own writ within a territory that it carves out is a direct challenge to national security and sovereignty.

The writ of the Pakistani state has been repeatedly challenged in the tribal regions. These regions are no longer isolated from the rest of Pakistan or even the world, because militant leaders use them as sanctuaries to plan attacks, raise volunteers for this purpose and inflict social harm. Sadly, the zone of extremist, violent activity has expanded in recent months to the settled districts where the Taliban and other groups have been enforcing their brand of law and order.

One reason religious militancy in Pakistan has still not been wiped out is the nature of debate on religious extremism in the country. While extremists operate in limited bands of groups, their social support base has alarmingly increased. For a vigilant society aware of the risk militant outfits pose to national security, even slight tolerance of such groups and individuals would be considered a moral, social and national offence.

Turn on any TV channel, attend any political seminar or engage with any social group with a religious orientation, and you will see open sympathy and support for militancy. The logic they present in support of the militancy is convoluted. What we hear often is this: ‘the state has failed to deliver security goods’, ‘there is unemployment’, and ‘what are Americans doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?’ This is confused and short-sighted argumentation at best and it shows that many do not understand what is in our best interest.

There are religious and political factions in the country with an irrational view of history and politics who think that Taliban-type governance is a better alternative to the semi-secular, post-colonial Pakistani state
. Although some of them participate in open, democratic politics, they are not averse to capturing state power by violent means. I suspect that their portrayal of the Taliban militancy as legitimate has a strategic objective, that of increasing political space. In turn, the society at large is losing sight of the grave danger that militancy and intolerance pose to all of us.

There is a deeper cultural and historical issue that we cannot escape in our political debate on militancy and intolerance. We live in a very different age, a truly modern age defined by consumerism, the market economy and material desires. This is our objective world. But the subjective world of at least the majority of Muslims in Pakistan has still not changed. We continue to live in the cultural and historical world of conquerors, conquests, and invading hordes and heroes. Much of this subjective world has been shaped by celebratory historical narratives of Muslim invaders and the practice of asserting religious superiority over other religious categories.

The reason I am expounding on this theme is that the cultural roots of militancy are spread throughout the country and we should not see them as exclusively tribal in nature, or as confined to the borderlands alone. The larger objective of Islamising the state and society that religious political parties have pursued for decades using both the pulpit and open democratic space is yet another factor that has contributed to the increasing tolerance of religious intolerance and militancy.

Is there a way out? We have to work very hard to convince the world and ourselves that we really want democracy, constitution, rule of law and other modern forms of governance and can adapt them to our social setting. We also need to convince ourselves that doing so will not compromise our faith or religiosity. Generations of modernist intellectuals throughout the Muslim world and in the subcontinent have argued time and again that you can be a good Muslim in a modern state structure.

By nature, a modern nation state has secular institutions, and cannot and will never be religious. Only the militant groups that capture the state by force will coerce society to submit to their view of religion and rituals. The democratic route would moderate them, if they choose it, and if they don’t consider it a one-way ticket to power, the logic of democracy will force them to respect freedoms.


While we engage in a rational debate on our future and on how to address the problem of militancy, we need national consensus among political parties that this indeed is Problem Number One and that we must end it with whatever is required. Action needs to be taken urgently because of the real and potential spill-over effects of militancy to other countries. The world may not wait for us and, by choosing its own means and employing them inside our territory, could further create rifts that we may not be able to bridge.

Dr Rasul Baksh Rais is author of Recovering the Frontier State: War, Ethnicity and State in Afghanistan (Lanham, Maryland: Lexington Books 2008) and a professor of Political Science at the Lahore University of Management Sciences. He can be reached at rasul@lums.edu.pk
 
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I would like add that Urdu media especially the Jang group, whether intentionally or unintentionally, has played a major role in portraying militancy in a good light. For example, recently on the Capital Talk where Umme Hassaan was a guest, in reply to a lady critic of actions of the students of Jamia Hafsa, the anchor Hamid Mir interjected saying that this action started after the demolition of an old mosque Masjid Amir Hamza.

IMO Umme Hassaan, who the intelligence agencies claim is training female suicide bombers to attack the president, should not be given TV time. Do you think that any one who is actually plotting terror attacks is going to admit it on the TV? Umme Hassaan also claimed that the attack where scores of policemen died in Peshawar was not a suicide bomb but carried out by the agencies! This was clearly done to generate public sympathy for a person who has demonstrated that they would use force to impose their point of view and challenge writ of the gov’t. It is like inviting Mafia Dons on a very popular talk show.

Secondly, what business did an anchor (who is supposed to be neutral) have to justify the action of Jamia Hafsa students? Did he imply that no mosque, even if built illegally on 'Qabza' land, should be demolished and if it is done, it is okay for people to occupy and destroy government buildings?

Masjid Amir Hamza was no doubt a 100 year old mosque but the case went to court and KDA proved that it had been constructed on illegally occupied land. Why not lodge an appeal with the Supreme Court; if the KDA action was illegal, the mosque would have been rebuilt. Let us not forget CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry, champion of law was still in charge when Masjid Amir Hamza was demolished.


IMO it does not look likely that we are going to see an end this madness. Islamist forces will not rest until either Pakistan we know is destroyed or talibanized completely. From those who don’t agree with me I ask, pray tell me can any State be called a State if her writ is to be challenged in the capital by a single mosque (Lal Masjid) and where a tribal war lord (Baitullah Mahsood) feels strong enough to demand resignation of an elected provincial gov’t. In my reckoning such a state in not a State if true sense?
 
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