Reviving Pakistan's Gunship Programs

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

It is some what concerning now that our various attempts to acquire Gunship helicopters has hit a snag

• 12 Super COBRA Fleet has not been released
• 20-30 Atak T129 Helicopters have the pending issue of Engine Approval from USA
• No confirmed news on MI35 purchase from Russia

Interim Strategy (Possible Alternatives)

• 20-30 , Z-10 Chinese helicopters on Lease
• 24 Augusta Westland Transport choppers converted to Gunship role with Machine Gun

It is worth considering that India is awaiting Apache Deliveries , one of most technologically loaded Gunship, the ball is in Pakistan's court to fill our Gunship gaps

 

[maverick1977]

It is some what concerning now that our various attempts to acquire Gunship helicopters has hit a snag

• 12 Super COBRA Fleet has not been released
• 20-30 Atak T129 Helicopters have the pending issue of Engine Approval from USA
• No confirmed news on MI35 purchase from Russia

Interim Strategy (Possible Alternatives)

• 20-30 , Z-10 Chinese helicopters on Lease
• 24 Augusta Westland Transport choppers converted to Gunship role with Machine Gun

It is worth considering that India is awaiting Apache Deliveries , one of most technologically loaded Gunship, the ball is in Pakistan's court to fill our Gunship gaps

This sucks seriously. i wish pakistan had started joint venture with China a long time ago. india produces Chitak helicopter locally. Pakistan has missed the boat now that the war is looming.

 

[RPK]

India is awaiting Apache Deliveries

Indian delivery already Started

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Considering present circumstances we should revise the Z-10 decision as it fills a need for Gunship role till T-129 , Turkish Helicopters are available (after they finish their local engine)

At one point of course their was massive optimism on Super Cobra and T-129 deals however we need to make adjustments based on what is available in market to us

 

[araz]

It is some what concerning now that our various attempts to acquire Gunship helicopters has hit a snag

• 12 Super COBRA Fleet has not been released
• 20-30 Atak T129 Helicopters have the pending issue of Engine Approval from USA
• No confirmed news on MI35 purchase from Russia

Interim Strategy (Possible Alternatives)

• 20-30 , Z-10 Chinese helicopters on Lease
• 24 Augusta Westland Transport choppers converted to Gunship role with Machine Gun

It is worth considering that India is awaiting Apache Deliveries , one of most technologically loaded Gunship, the ball is in Pakistan's court to fill our Gunship gaps

Aside from the cost of developing a platform ab initio, where are the engines going to come from? As per my knowledge, the US and French are not releasing any, the Chinese do not yet have a powerful and reliable engine for helos( one of the main reasons for Z10 being returned) and the Russians are not playing ball. So you have a need now. You have barely stepped into the field of aviation and you want to design a helo from the base up on a nonexistent budget( in case you did not notice we are broke). The helo market is in a state of glut with multiple platforms vying f9r a very limited market. So in case 10 to 15 years down the line we develop a platform when we need one now, how many do we need. As far as I remember the need maximally is 80 platforms. So what do you think is going to be the cost of your 80 platforms? Please consider you will be investing possibly a couple of billion dollars plus getting 8nto a c9ntract to procure eng8nes with some subassembly which is going to be in the region of 30 million a pop plus setup which could set you back another half a billion dollars. Can you then calculate the per unit cost of this platform?
It is not without reason that PAA wanted a venture with the Turks. The initial setup costs would have been offset by getting some production rights of sub sections which could have been mutually beneficial. With the 2 brotherly countries both needing the platform the requirements would have gone up past 200 platforms. The Turks have already manufactured the helo so development costs would have been minimal and setup of sub assembly line would have paid for itself in due course. Cost per unit could have been rediced as Turkish labour is significantly more expensive than Pak labour which would have been a win win for both parties. Since the Turks are just starting off in the international market they might have been a bit more willing to offer you loans unlike the Chinese who are now think8ng twice about offering you any loans az your finacial condition is a mess. Plus the Chinese do not gain anything by offering you sub assembly.
Just a few thoughts for your kind consideration.

A

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I feel we should take up Z-10 until T-129 gets it's engine (Local Turkish Engine)

It is forming the backbone of Chinese Aviation Corps , so I don't buy the argument the platform is that much different

We should attain a timeline for T-129 from Turkey , 2020 / 2021 / 2022 etc when the issue will resolve in mean while we should grow the Z-10 fleet and just forget about the Super Cobra all together

The Italian AgustaWestland AW139 could be converted into a machine gun type gunship as a support craft

It should help act as a interim solution

 

[FuturePAF]

what about buying AH-1F from retired operators, and giving them a modest overhaul (maybe Turkish AH-1F being retired, maybe Thailand's helicopters in storage, more from Jordan, or just straight from American storage)? or asking the Chinese to develop a variant of the WZ-19 that only has the feature the PA really needs, and the excluded features can be added back in when the funds become available? Leasing the Z-10 if available would probably be the best option, as it provides the full capability, and is available right now, and the Pakistan Army has had years to evaluate and field test it in Pakistan.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The American avenue is resulting in massive delays for Pakistan, India is loading up on their weapons from France / USA / Russia

• Apache from USA , no sanction on this shipment even after Kashmir Human Rights Violations
• New orders of 100+ Helicopters for Indian Navy from France
• The on going Helo attainment from Russia and Local Sources
• India also openly opposed USA with purchase of S-300 from Russia still no sanctions

Even if their was concern on Z-10 , Chinese are likely to release a more potent Engine in future


Their is no logical explanation why Pakistani Helicopters (Super Cobra) are sent to storage , while Indian forces are getting their Apache , their is a double rule of engagement with Pakistan and India

 

[Lone Nazi]

Gunships are really really vulnerable to manpads like stinger and anza.....idk if its a good idea to induct them without proper research and training with their electronic warfare suits and countermeasure systems in a rush time like this year when war is almost levied against us......this choppers can be a huge liability.
for instance Turks lost several of their T-129 in their fight against kurds and in syria...there were even videos of them being shot down.

 

[PWFI]

Indian delivery already Started

When the first crash is planned for?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Gunships are really really vulnerable to manpads like stinger and anza.....idk if its a good idea to induct them without proper research and training with their electronic warfare suits and countermeasure systems in a rush time like this year when war is almost levied against us......this choppers can be a huge liability.
for instance Turks lost several of their T-129 in their fight against kurds and in syria...there were even videos of them being shot down.

In the end , it was Turkey who cleaned the house
We are not fighting a war in trenches like in WW1

The game has changed

 

[Lone Nazi]

In the end , it was Turkey who cleaned the house
We are not fighting a war in trenches like in WW1

The game has changed

Well Turkey can afford to lose a few....we can't...our economy is simply not comparable with them......The military budget passed this year is even same as of the last year....and these things aside.....if kurds or syrian terrorists can shoot down those choppers....I believe Indian army is more than capable...they may not be professional....but they are not complete jokers either.....

 

[TNT]

I think role of gunships is more on the COIN operations and limited in a war. They are even vulnerable in COIN as manpads or even old shoulder fired rocket launchers can hit them. Taliban have managed to destroy many.

 

[Imran Khan]

i think we better wait a while and got good deal .there is no war tomorrow

 

[araz]

The American avenue is resulting in massive delays for Pakistan, India is loading up on their weapons from France / USA / Russia

• Apache from USA , no sanction on this shipment even after Kashmir Human Rights Violations
• New orders of 100+ Helicopters for Indian Navy from France
• The on going Helo attainment from Russia and Local Sources
• India also openly opposed USA with purchase of S-300 from Russia still no sanctions

Even if their was concern on Z-10 , Chinese are likely to release a more potent Engine in future


Their is no logical explanation why Pakistani Helicopters (Super Cobra) are sent to storage , while Indian forces are getting their Apache , their is a double rule of engagement with Pakistan and India

Payment of money my friend. You want the money for them to co.e from FMS which the US is refusing to do.