Reviving Pakistan's Gunship Programs

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

If you listen to this video---at one stage he talks about the Sanctions on the F16's---and he is still upset that the sanctions were added after all these years---.

Which means---the great guy that he is---he still does not know what happened and how the process went and why pakistan got sanctioned---.

Which further means that the Paf cannot read the TEA LEAVES---. If after all these years dealing with the US and they still cannot read the tea leaves---it is not the problem of the US---it is Paf's problem---.

Paf needs to listen to what Philipines Pres Duterte stated about his relationship with the US---he stated " the US cannot be trusted at all---you make an agreement with the govt---but then one congressman gets up and changes the law---thus changing the agreement---how can an agreement between two leaders can just be changed after it has been signed---"---.

If the Paf has not learnt and the army has not learnt how to read the TEA LEAVES by now---then there is something wrong with them and not the US---.

We are in a similar spot with the helicopter deal---sitting on a romise to Turkey---.

The reason the deal has not been cancelled because of too much kickback to pakistani deal makers---.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

If you listen to this video---at one stage he talks about the Sanctions on the F16's---and he is still upset that the sanctions were added after all these years---.

Which means---the great guy that he is---he still does not know what happened and how the process went and why pakistan got sanctioned---.

Which further means that the Paf cannot read the TEA LEAVES---. If after all these years dealing with the US and they still cannot read the tea leaves---it is not the problem of the US---it is Paf's problem---.

Paf needs to listen to what Philipines Pres Duterte stated about his relationship with the US---he stated " the US cannot be trusted at all---you make an agreement with the govt---but then one congressman gets up and changes the law---thus changing the agreement---how can an agreement between two leaders can just be changed after it has been signed---"---.

If the Paf has not learnt and the army has not learnt how to read the TEA LEAVES by now---then there is something wrong with them and not the US---.

We are in a similar spot with the helicopter deal---sitting on a romise to Turkey---.

The reason the deal has not been cancelled because of too much kickback to pakistani deal makers---.

True, hence the need to just commit already and get the J-10CE. Let the US know, if they want a seat at the Pakistani table, give the PAF F-16s with CSF money or not the PAF is moving on. The one thing the current Pakistani government has done correctly is shift from seeking Aid and just advocated increasing trade. Pakistan will then use the money to buy from whom ever it sees fit and trusts.

BTW, what do you think about Pakistan trying to approach the Saudis now that the UAE looks to be pulling out of the coalition efforts in Yemen. This maybe a second chance with a limited window, and one where Pakistan maybe able to break the current stalemate, and hopefully be able to minimize effects on civilians, now that the Saudi Coalition has done a lot of air to ground missions already.

The Pakistan Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines could start raising a force of 100,000 to 150,000 like you advocated separate from the current Pakistan army/navy/air force/marines; made up of reserve troops, and have the Saudis equip them. After the conflict, Pakistani forces could come away with a lot of equipment like you advocated some time ago. Even Saudi equipment from their current inventory (so the equipping can be done ASAP, and not have to wait for Western approval and production, just tacit approval of the transfer) is better then most Pakistani equipment. Pakistan could try to get Hundreds of Thousands of Small Arms, Anti-Tank Missiles like the Javelin, maybe a decent number of M1A2S Tanks, AMX-10 APCs in Saudi Storage, Hundreds of M-ATV MRAPs, Some Apache Helicopters, Some Chinook Helicopters, some Black Hawk helicopters, 1 Squadron of Eurofighters, and maybe 2-3 squadrons of Tornadoes. Saudi Money could also fund procurement from Western and/or Chinese suppliers to equip the Pakistani force of the rest of the equipment they would need, especially in the naval, PGM, and artillery domains.

 

[MastanKhan]

True, hence the need to just commit already and get the J-10CE. Let the US know, if they want a seat at the Pakistani table, give the PAF F-16s with CSF money or not the PAF is moving on. The one thing the current Pakistani government has done correctly is shift from seeking Aid and just advocated increasing trade. Pakistan will then use the money to buy from whom ever it sees fit and trusts.

BTW, what do you think about Pakistan trying to approach the Saudis now that the UAE looks to be pulling out of the coalition efforts in Yemen. This maybe a second chance with a limited window, and one where Pakistan maybe able to break the current stalemate, and hopefully be able to minimize effects on civilians, now that the Saudi Coalition has done a lot of air to ground missions already.

The Pakistan Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines could start raising a force of 100,000 to 150,000 like you advocated separate from the current Pakistan army/navy/air force/marines; made up of reserve troops, and have the Saudis equip them. After the conflict, Pakistani forces could come away with a lot of equipment like you advocated some time ago. Even Saudi equipment from their current inventory (so the equipping can be done ASAP, and not have to wait for Western approval and production, just tacit approval of the transfer) is better then most Pakistani equipment. Pakistan could try to get Hundreds of Thousands of Small Arms, Anti-Tank Missiles like the Javelin, maybe a decent number of M1A2S Tanks, AMX-10 APCs in Saudi Storage, Hundreds of M-ATV MRAPs, Some Apache Helicopters, Some Chinook Helicopters, some Black Hawk helicopters, 1 Squadron of Eurofighters, and maybe 2-3 squadrons of Tornadoes. Saudi Money could also fund procurement from Western and/or Chinese suppliers to equip the Pakistani force of the rest of the equipment they would need, especially in the naval, PGM, and artillery domains.

Hi,

I believe that the IK needs to take charge of the Paf procurement and get the J10CE if they are available on a fastrak---on a lease---.

IK does not have the vision of building an army in SA---.

i doubt chinese will do any JV, they will simply offer you licences production..as they want to sell themselves, its not the 1990s anymore
if you want to sell you will have to look at other countries like turkey, south africa may be ukrain

Hi,

The product is all ready---there is no JV now---so just buy them would be the best option---.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

I believe that the IK needs to take charge of the Paf procurement and get the J10CE if they are available on a fastrak---on a lease---.

IK does not have the vision of building an army in SA---.

Lease or purchase, but we need to get those J-10CE ASAP. Any Chance the generals could convince Imran Khan its in the National interest to build and army in Saudi Arabia? Iran may not stay neutral to Pakistan or Pakistan's interests for long, and so Pakistan can't suppress its alliance building with Saudi Arabia on behalf of the Iranians that have sided with India to screw over Pakistan time and time again.

 

[Super Falcon]

i think we better wait a while and got good deal .there is no war tomorrow

Yes we should wait and ask us to release those AH 1Z as well as they have approved FMS for 12 f 16

 

[araz]

Ultimately you wull have to take yhe risk..if you play smart you should be able to develop a single engine used in both transport and gunships(nothing new, some engines are used this way)

Down the line there is big demand..you will need 150+ transport helis and 40-50 gunships...

Acquire mi27s and work on your own plateform
See if you can upgrade the older cobras or get surplus from usa for mean while

Perhaps I was not clear in my original post. I meant" on our own"(ab initio) when I referred to the topic. PAF/PA has an established and very sensible policy of starting joint venture before embarking on in house development. This picture is apparent in Al khalid, M113, and JFT.
It has been clear as day light that the US is the wrong tree to bark at when it comes to joint ventures. So we needed to look else where. The Chinese products in this field were not matured till date therefore we looked at Turkey.
This relationship is very interesting as there is symbiosis here. The Turkish are just a couple of steps ahead of us in their developmental cycles. However their production costs are high. We can NOW provide the relevant products at a cheaper cost and of international standards to them which is why we have converging interests. The same cannot be said of the Chinese where production costs are rock bottom. The engine problem has plagued all of our projects including the JFT. This will result in some delays but eventually the goals will inshaaAllah be achieved.
You are absolutely right in choosing products which have military plus possible non military use. So once the facility gets established a utility/transport helicopter can be devised to be used in house as well as to sell.
I think one of the things which people have a misconception about is the access we NOW have to Chinese products. Things are not as open as they used to be and our access is now limited and a price is demanded of us. Plus their products are still not matured enough for us to rely on them solely. This maybe why we have started looking st else where as well.
The Iron brothers rhetoric only works as long as mutual interests are served. It is now becoming clear that those interests might not be as crystllized as before. I dont blame the Chinese for this at all. They have spent billions developing their industry and have a right to safeguard their end products.
A

 

[araz]

I had shared this article on this site.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-offer-big-capabilities-without-the-price-tag

May be its not a bad option at all. Cobra is still a good platform.

The real question is how much life is actually left in our Cobras. My understanding is they took quite a beating during the war against the TTP.
A

 

[Armchair]

What you need is to counter with CAS fixed wing aircraft. They can perform the same duty at a fraction of the cost, and are easy to manufacture.

 

[FuturePAF]

What you need is to counter with CAS fixed wing aircraft. They can perform the same duty at a fraction of the cost, and are easy to manufacture.

For this the PAF will be using its Block I/II JF-17s once Enough Block III are produced to take on the Air to Air role. There is also the K-8P which can be fitted with a gun pod and laser guided PGMs like rockets and light LGBs against areas where the enemy has limited or no air defense. The Pakistan Army will still need attack Helicopters due to their tactics and loiter capability.

 

[denel]

there are several countries with whom you ccan end up doing joint ventures

ultimately it will big headache once puma and mi17 start to failing

Correct. Let us take that as an example - there was nothing stopping from engaging Atlas with the Oryx/Rooivalk program. They use both the common Puma platform albeit much modified to a Super Puma. Local industry would have kick started. But no, we find ourselves in the same quagmire @MastanKhan notes complete ignoramuses running the show. They all need to be shambocked and thrown out.

 

[MastanKhan]

Correct. Let us take that as an example - there was nothing stopping from engaging Atlas with the Oryx/Rooivalk program. They use both the common Puma platform albeit much modified to a Super Puma. Local industry would have kick started. But no, we find ourselves in the same quagmire @MastanKhan notes complete ignoramuses running the show. They all need to be shambocked and thrown out.

Hi,

It was the repitition of late 80's sanctions---. I was in the US---from reading and discussions---it was obvious that pak will get sanctioned on the F16's---.

Anyone and everyone who was involved on the western side---even their grand mothers knew that sanctions on the F16's were on the way in---.

The only ones who did not know & did not want to believe were the pakistani military consortium / Paf---.

Fast forward some 38 years---. Again sitting home and reading and looking at where the relationship of Turkey and the US was headed---it was obvious---pak would noot be getting the helicopter engine---.

Turkey's guarantee for an american engine were based on falsehood and bad judgement---.

Why did pakistan got caught in the middle---Turkey gave more kickbacks to pak military than china was to give---.

There is no other sane reason for pak military to go with the Turkish helicopter under the looming sanctions on Turkey and bad blood between pakistan and the US---.

That is why---pakistan's ex Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif mentioned one time---don't dig out the deals with Turkey---you may not like what you see---.

If a machine is not available to you then it does not mean anything if it is ahead or not---.

TURKEY IS NOT WAY AHEAD OF CHINA IN HELICOPTERS---just marginally---and we could have used the chinese helicopters with Turkish Electronics---. At least we would have had some weapons to fight with---.

Now we are screwed one more time---14 apaches sitting in the US---Turkish helicopters cannot be built no engine---F16's ready and no money to pay for---.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well the disruption in USA / Turkey ties was out of blue , I suppose that was not expected
It had more to do with the created of buffer zone between Iraq/Turkey/Syria region occupied by PKK

The military coup attempt changed the dynamics of US / Turkey engagement
while Israel ended up getting F-35 , and turkey ended up financing the project research

For us not getting access to Engine , of course more has to do with reluctance to invest $$ in R&D for engines with local Engineering Universities

• We never had a policy of Local Research since 1980's for engines

Turkey will 100% complete their Local Helicopter Engine it is matter of time I think unlike us they have invested in their University Research

However for Pakistan , we should have had a policy to grow Z-10 numbers each year

• 5 Helicopters per year for past 5 years

"The T-129 deal between Pakistan-Turkey was the longest anticipated and appreciated deal between two brotherly nations , it will still get completed 100% "


The snag has been unexpected due to engine


However , I agree 100% instead of being empty handed , Z-10 would have filled a necessary role for modernization of Aviation Corps.

 

[denel]

Hi,

It was the repitition of late 80's sanctions---. I was in the US---from reading and discussions---it was obvious that pak will get sanctioned on the F16's---.

Anyone and everyone who was involved on the western side---even their grand mothers knew that sanctions on the F16's were on the way in---.

The only ones who did not know & did not want to believe were the pakistani military consortium / Paf---.

Fast forward some 38 years---. Again sitting home and reading and looking at where the relationship of Turkey and the US was headed---it was obvious---pak would noot be getting the helicopter engine---.

Turkey's guarantee for an american engine were based on falsehood and bad judgement---.

Why did pakistan got caught in the middle---Turkey gave more kickbacks to pak military than china was to give---.

There is no other sane reason for pak military to go with the Turkish helicopter under the looming sanctions on Turkey and bad blood between pakistan and the US---.

That is why---pakistan's ex Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif mentioned one time---don't dig out the deals with Turkey---you may not like what you see---.

If a machine is not available to you then it does not mean anything if it is ahead or not---.

TURKEY IS NOT WAY AHEAD OF CHINA IN HELICOPTERS---just marginally---and we could have used the chinese helicopters with Turkish Electronics---. At least we would have had some weapons to fight with---.

Now we are screwed one more time---14 apaches sitting in the US---Turkish helicopters cannot be built no engine---F16's ready and no money to pay for---.

Again the same very problem, you have chiefs at the top which are corrupt. When we were in bidding for Turkish gunships in mid 90's - it was a matter of kickbacks and what have you nots from EU/USA consortiums - we were ready to give complete transfer of technology - remember Turkey was nobody then.
Here the same thing - you already have a decent Puma fleet and maintenance know how, there was no foresight to continue forward; sure Z-10s could be had as well but no where there has been a mantra since sanctions time to say we need localisations; there has been rotating sanctions one form or the other and noone learns from it.
true China has been a lifeline but for how long. the new leadership in China is changing and it may be one day China will cut ties too.

 

[MastanKhan]

Well the disruption in USA / Turkey ties was out of blue , I suppose that was not expected
It had more to do with the created of buffer zone between Iraq/Turkey/Syria region occupied by PKK

The military coup attempt changed the dynamics of US / Turkey engagement
while Israel ended up getting F-35 , and turkey ended up financing the project research

For us not getting access to Engine , of course more has to do with reluctance to invest $$ in R&D for engines with local Engineering Universities

• We never had a policy of Local Research since 1980's for engines

Turkey will 100% complete their Local Helicopter Engine it is matter of time I think unlike us they have invested in their University Research

However for Pakistan , we should have had a policy to grow Z-10 numbers each year

• 5 Helicopters per year for past 5 years

"The T-129 deal between Pakistan-Turkey was the longest anticipated and appreciated deal between two brotherly nations , it will still get completed 100% "


The snag has been unexpected due to engine


However , I agree 100% instead of being empty handed , Z-10 would have filled a necessary role for modernization of Aviation Corps.

Hi,

That is incorrect---the restrictions on Turkey were obvious as daylight and supply for engines for pakistan helicopters from the US---NOT POSSIBLE---.

 

[Turan09]

Gunships are really really vulnerable to manpads like stinger and anza.....idk if its a good idea to induct them without proper research and training with their electronic warfare suits and countermeasure systems in a rush time like this year when war is almost levied against us......this choppers can be a huge liability.
for instance Turks lost several of their T-129 in their fight against kurds and in syria...there were even videos of them being shot down.

Correction, only one single T-129 shot down by terrorists in syria not ''few'' and you should check out how many Apache's shot down by MANPADS, this are attack helicopters not some undefeatable godly magic... attack helicopters gave you a great fire power against tanks and enemy soldiers but of course every attack helicopter can be destroyed.