Retaking Kashmir after 70 years

[Gryphon]

@Signalian

Reply to posts #179, #189 and #191.

After PA moved 6 Armoured Division from Kharian to Gujranwala, IA converted the Akhnoor based 10 Inf Div into RAPID, which means it has an integral armd bde now besides the infantry bdes.

PA responded by adding few HAT companies to 23 Inf Div (its AOR extends upto Chenab river), supplementing the existing armoured regiment.

8 IABG (of 1 Corps) remains in Kharian and can opt to mount a counter-offensive towards Akhnoor either through Pallanwala or through the Chicken's neck (after crossing the Chenab within Pak territory). 17 Inf Div or 37 Inf Div (both Kharian-based) may provide additional mechanized/motorized infantry.

Little down south, 8 Inf Div and 15 Inf Div (both Sialkot-based) along with the Gujranwala based 19 IABG are expected to defend Sialkot-Shakargarh area from IA's Jammu based 26 Inf Div and Pathankot based 29 Inf Div backed by 2x or 3x IABG's.

Gujranwala based 6 Armd Div along with the co-located 2 Arty Div and an Inf Div from Kharian may be used to assault a selected tract in the Jammu-Samba-Kathua-Pathankot axis relieving pressure off 30 Corps formations.

IA also has the 39 Mountain Div at Palampur, from which mountain infantry/artillery may be harvested.

Overall, I see PA's position better.

 

[CrazyZ]

Pakistan has the rare advantage that the local population hates the forces of the area we want to invade. Pakistan should not go head on or there will be international condemnation and huge losses on both sides.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Using unconventional warfare will only reinforce India's position that Pakistan supports terrorism. There will be massive pressure to stop backing terrorists from the international community.

Its better to go the conventional route. Let India be the aggressor, let them execute a hit and run raid and we counter with an all out air land assault into the valley and northern portions of Kashmir. We would have 3 - 5 days before the international community step's in. Leh and srinigar air bases would have to be destroyed, if successful the Paf can establish local air superiority over the valley and go to work bombing Indian positions on the Loc and in the valley. Local militants can help by attacking behind the Loc. Then the pa attacks.

I would only attempt this if we can reach our objectives within a few days. If its not possible then we wait for a better time. If they want to escalate in the south that's what the nuke are for.

 

[Nilgiri]

@Gryphon @Signalian @Joe Shearer

I have found a few discrepancies in some sources from what Joe sent me for Pak ORBAT.

Could you guys look this over real quick (from wiki) and tell me if this checks out commands/corps/organisation wise?:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Pakistan_Army_Structure.png

just as a starting place, its fine right?

 

[Signalian]

@Gryphon @Signalian @Joe Shearer

I have found a few discrepancies in some sources from what Joe sent me for Pak ORBAT.

Could you guys look this over real quick (from wiki) and tell me if this checks out commands/corps/organisation wise?:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Pakistan_Army_Structure.png

just as a starting place, its fine right?

Post # 132

@Signalian

Reply to posts #179, #189 and #191.

After PA moved 6 Armoured Division from Kharian to Gujranwala, IA converted the Akhnoor based 10 Inf Div into RAPID, which means it has an integral armd bde now besides the infantry bdes.

PA responded by adding few HAT companies to 23 Inf Div (its AOR extends upto Chenab river), supplementing the existing armoured regiment.

8 IABG (of 1 Corps) remains in Kharian and can opt to mount a counter-offensive towards Akhnoor either through Pallanwala or through the Chicken's neck (after crossing the Chenab within Pak territory). 17 Inf Div or 37 Inf Div (both Kharian-based) may provide additional mechanized/motorized infantry.

Little down south, 8 Inf Div and 15 Inf Div (both Sialkot-based) along with the Gujranwala based 19 IABG are expected to defend Sialkot-Shakargarh area from IA's Jammu based 26 Inf Div and Pathankot based 29 Inf Div backed by 2x or 3x IABG's.

Gujranwala based 6 Armd Div along with the co-located 2 Arty Div and an Inf Div from Kharian may be used to assault a selected tract in the Jammu-Samba-Kathua-Pathankot axis relieving pressure off 30 Corps formations.

IA also has the 39 Mountain Div at Palampur, from which mountain infantry/artillery may be harvested.

Overall, I see PA's position better.

If 6 Armoured Division blocks enemy pouring into Jammu from Pathankot (and beyond it from east) and completely takes over the area ensuring IA armor don't cross Pathankot, then there is a slight chance of success in taking Jammu and the rest of the belt towards west.

However, IAF will start flying in infantry reinforcements from all over India into Srinagar and thus IA forces in J&K will get supplemeted.

 

[Nilgiri]

Post # 132

Yeah but I mean in terms of the higher level "commands" to have equivalency with what I got for northern, western etc etc commands on Indian side.

In both gryphon and Joe table, X and XI corps have no command.

Are central and southern commands (which now seems to be called western + sindh commands in some places)...the old or new system of organisation?

Or is it more because of newer parlance? i.e on wiki it says the punjab strike command was "formerly" the central command etc.

Have a lookie @Gryphon :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Army#Commands

 

[Nilgiri]

OK gryphon told me just Central and Southern commands exist. Please ignore last post.

@Gryphon Are X and XI corps assigned to any command?

More symbols are ready now:

 

[Signalian]

@Nilgiri

PA uses Mujahid and Janbaz battalions as well as Rangers atleast at Sialkot and onwards on IB towards Lahore...while IA uses BSF? what about CPRF?

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri

PA uses Mujahid and Janbaz battalions as well as Rangers atleast at Sialkot and onwards on IB towards Lahore...while IA uses BSF? what about CPRF?

Yes MoD has deployed BSF mostly (at border), CRPF is deployed little more interior. ITBP also comes into picture in the area to some degree.

Paramilitary wise, do you think we should map them out later?

 

[Signalian]

Yes MoD has deployed BSF mostly (at border), CRPF is deployed little more interior. ITBP also comes into picture in the area to some degree.

Paramilitary wise, do you think we should map them out later?

yes later...i think that some of PA regular formations have NG battalions.

 

[Tom M]

Pakistan has the rare advantage that the local population hates the forces of the area we want to invade. Pakistan should not go head on or there will be international condemnation and huge losses on both sides. Instead after America leaves Afghanistan pledge full support for the Kashmiri resistance and get all assets used to win the war in Afghanistan to concentrate on Kashmir. Get a big civil war started inside Kashmir, im talking an uprising like Syria or Afghanistan where Indian troops are having to defend from Pakistan and from behind in Kashmir. A huge weakening like this to India and than invade and take the Valley where the majority live. We dont need to rest of Kashmir just the valley so we can liberate them and join them to AJ/K and establish a permanent border. This is the best option.

Idea sounds really good. But then Pakistan won't need any enemies rather the so called assets for your doom. FATF, UNO, UNSC, sanctions. Does the above ring a bell ???

 

[Tom M]

Kashmir has been a flash point and it seems it is finally approaching it final conclusion
Kashmiri will be freed inshallah

View attachment 541270

So observing the situation at ground level it is very clear the actual important Vally is not really that difficult to take a since Valley's 10 Million people are with Pakistan Already

Any misadventure by India of course means a sudden departure of Kashmir from their hands , the reluctance to hold elections in region to allow kashmir to seperate has gone far far far too long and now it needs a closure

May be in 60's and 70's India has some advantage but in 2019 , Pakistan is fully capable to give a strong "Tamacha" in India's face

Pakistan is ready to use nukes if your territorial integrity is under threat. Then why is the world people live under the impression that it can be same for others as well??

Kashmir is very much an India territory like Delhi, Mumbai or any other place.

If it comes to a bloody civil war (highly unlikely) where do you think the local militias will get their advanced and sophisticated weapons ?? And then how can it stop from being a full fudged war between two countries ??

India is ready to commit our entire GDP, defence forces as well as 1.3 Billion population on Kashmir. We think Kashmir is worth it. The real question to you,is Kashmir worth entire Pakistan???

Well in the event of a war, TAMACHA it will be but not sure about face though.

 

[Signalian]

@Gryphon
Ok another one of my maps which JOE hates, but lets go with my feeble attempt for now. I have not put in any other formation or details as im just going basic planning for 6th Armored Division here to take part in Kashmir war. @Joe Shearer please let me know if my understanding of Indian terrain is correct or not.
Just click on map once to zoom in a bit.

Okay, Purple are the mountain Ranges, anything ahead of purple lines is terrain difficult for tanks to negotiate.
Yellow is the road that leads to Jammu. Capturing this highway is vital though movement on this highway will become targets constantly by the enemy AF and Army. Is there any other road leading to Jammu?
ORANGE depicts the axis of attack for 6th Armored Division.

6th Armored Division is stationed at Shakargarh and chooses one of the following Target routes.

TARGET A: A weak spot in enemy lines, from which 6th Armd Div moves north towards Hiranagar and turns right towards Kathua. Indian formations deployed here donot let 6th Armd Div advance to Pathankot but a portion of highway is now captured.

TARGET A Extended: 6th Armd Div moves straight away towards Kathua and captures it and due to stiff resistance cannot advance to Pathankot.

TARGET B: 6th Armd Div dashes towards Pathankot in a bid to capture it, by-passing Kathua, which could later be engaged by an Infantry Brigade. The terrain which approaches Pathankot becomes inhospitable for tanks due to river and canals so progress will be very slow.

TARGET C: 6th Armd Div advances towards Gurdaspur to help 1 Corps secure it (southern flank of Pathankot) and then moves north towards Pathankot after Gurdaspur is secured. XXX Corps is concentrated towards Jammu, and its expected from 1 Corps to hold the Kathua-Pathankot-Gurdaspur axis.

Advancing ahead of Pathnkot is difficult due to terrain so this is the last stop for 6th Armored Division unless its deployed somewhere else while infantry formation becomes responsible for Pathankot area.

 

[Joe Shearer]

View attachment 546505
@Gryphon
Ok another one of my maps which JOE hates, but lets go with my feeble attempt for now. I have not put in any other formation or details as im just going basic planning for 6th Armored Division here to take part in Kashmir war. @Joe Shearer please let me know if my understanding of Indian terrain is correct or not.
Just click on map once to zoom in a bit.

Okay, Purple are the mountain Ranges, anything ahead of purple lines is terrain difficult for tanks to negotiate.
Yellow is the road that leads to Jammu. Capturing this highway is vital though movement on this highway will become targets constantly by the enemy AF and Army. Is there any other road leading to Jammu?
ORANGE depicts the axis of attack for 6th Armored Division.

6th Armored Division is stationed at Shakargarh and chooses one of the following Target routes.

TARGET A: A weak spot in enemy lines, from which 6th Armd Div moves north towards Hiranagar and turns right towards Kathua. Indian formations deployed here donot let 6th Armd Div advance to Pathankot but a portion of highway is now captured.

TARGET A Extended: 6th Armd Div moves straight away towards Kathua and captures it and due to stiff resistance cannot advance to Pathankot.

TARGET B: 6th Armd Div dashes towards Pathankot in a bid to capture it, by-passing Kathua, which could later be engaged by an Infantry Brigade. The terrain which approaches Pathankot becomes inhospitable for tanks due to river and canals so progress will be very slow.

TARGET C: 6th Armd Div advances towards Gurdaspur to help 1 Corps secure it (southern flank of Pathankot) and then moves north towards Pathankot after Gurdaspur is secured. XXX Corps is concentrated towards Jammu, and its expected from 1 Corps to hold the Kathua-Pathankot-Gurdaspur axis.

Advancing ahead of Pathnkot is difficult due to terrain so this is the last stop for 6th Armored Division unless its deployed somewhere else while infantry formation becomes responsible for Pathankot area.

I LOVE your maps and HATE your fonts. They are meant (the fonts) for 30-somethings.

Your general appreciation is fair enough, but there are other considerations; let @Nilgiri's picturisation appear, and we can talk about it.

 

[Gryphon]

However, IAF will start flying in infantry reinforcements from all over India into Srinagar and thus IA forces in J&K will get supplemeted.

Light infantry reinforcements are already there in Jammu & Kashmir in the shape of 5× Rashtriya Rifles Div sized forces. Plus, plenty of BSF, SSB, CRPF and ITBP battalions.

View attachment 546505
@Gryphon
Ok another one of my maps which JOE hates, but lets go with my feeble attempt for now. I have not put in any other formation or details as im just going basic planning for 6th Armored Division here to take part in Kashmir war. @Joe Shearer please let me know if my understanding of Indian terrain is correct or not.
Just click on map once to zoom in a bit.

Okay, Purple are the mountain Ranges, anything ahead of purple lines is terrain difficult for tanks to negotiate.
Yellow is the road that leads to Jammu. Capturing this highway is vital though movement on this highway will become targets constantly by the enemy AF and Army. Is there any other road leading to Jammu?

Near Pathankot, two separate roads leading to Jammu emerge. The main highway runs close to the Working boundary, the other is a hilly route through Mahanpur (see in above pic).

ORANGE depicts the axis of attack for 6th Armored Division.

6th Armored Division is stationed at Shakargarh and chooses one of the following Target routes.

TARGET A: A weak spot in enemy lines, from which 6th Armd Div moves north towards Hiranagar and turns right towards Kathua. Indian formations deployed here donot let 6th Armd Div advance to Pathankot but a portion of highway is now captured.

TARGET A Extended: 6th Armd Div moves straight away towards Kathua and captures it and due to stiff resistance cannot advance to Pathankot.

TARGET B: 6th Armd Div dashes towards Pathankot in a bid to capture it, by-passing Kathua, which could later be engaged by an Infantry Brigade. The terrain which approaches Pathankot becomes inhospitable for tanks due to river and canals so progress will be very slow.

TARGET C: 6th Armd Div advances towards Gurdaspur to help 1 Corps secure it (southern flank of Pathankot) and then moves north towards Pathankot after Gurdaspur is secured. XXX Corps is concentrated towards Jammu, and its expected from 1 Corps to hold the Kathua-Pathankot-Gurdaspur axis.

Advancing ahead of Pathnkot is difficult due to terrain so this is the last stop for 6th Armored Division unless its deployed somewhere else while infantry formation becomes responsible for Pathankot area.

The Ravi sits on the approaches to Pathankot and Gurdaspur, making a Div sized assault difficult.

If the aim is Jammu, it should be a simultaneous assault from two sides - one by 8 IABG + 23 Inf Div + 17 or 37 Inf Div on Akhnoor (defender: 10 RAPID) through the Chicken's neck and the main offensive by 6 Armd Div + 19 IABG + 37 or 17 Inf Div + 2 Arty Div on Jammu through Charwa (defenders: 2 or 3 IABG's + 26 Inf Div).

8 and 15 Inf Div's may be used to defend Shakargarh from the Pathankot based 29 Inf Div. 30 Corps established a new Cantt at Pasrur few years back to better manage this area.

 

[Nilgiri]

OK guys, need your input if you think this size/zoom level is ok (for base setting). Remember we can zoom in/zoom out as we want to (I just want to know if this size of symbols relative to the map is fine).

Any other inputs at this stage are always welcome. I made brigades smaller than divisions.

In the inset is the fully populated stuff for IA I have now.

@Signalian @Gryphon @Joe Shearer

When we have a final version all ready and proper, hopefully we can create a new dedicated ORBAT thread, have it pinned by mods etc.

@waz @WAJsal @Horus