Retaking Kashmir after 70 years

[Nilgiri]

You could make Indian Army Blue colored, Pakistan Army Green.....since @Joe Shearer is not a fan of RED

It's all easily changeable later ....right now I'm just going to get something out there first .

Good thing is because the program has layering, its very easy to move and change things later as needed (once you put them in etc)....without leaving weird stuff behind (i.e base map stays unaffected).

Then in the very final iterations we can add arrows etc on top (you lot can scribble, we can discuss etc...and then I'll add them to the main picture etc).

 

[Signalian]

It's all easily changeable later ....right now I'm just going to get something out there first .

Good thing is because the program has layering, its very easy to move and change things later as needed (once you put them in etc)....without leaving weird stuff behind (i.e base map stays unaffected).

Then in the very final iterations we can add arrows etc on top (you lot can scribble, we can discuss etc...and then I'll add them to the main picture etc).

yar im not running ahead of you...

Somethings come easy to me, i can map the whole scenario in my head and then can form out a detailed plan drawn on aims to be completed. Since you sent the picture of of that area, so the terrain, roads, peaks, hills, available forces, reserves, attacking and counter attacking avenues, defensive lines etc started to form a picture in my head.

 

[Nilgiri]

yar im not running ahead of you...

Somethings come easy to me, i can map the whole scenario in my head and then can form out a detailed plan drawn on aims to be completed. Since you sent the picture of of that area, so the terrain, roads, peaks, hills, available forces, reserves, attacking and counter attacking avenues, defensive lines etc started to form a picture in my head.

Great, its only going to get better with time as I put more stuff in . @The Sandman asked me "where are the air force bases?" when he looked at the sneak peek lol....and fair enough, thats something to think about integrating in at later point too.

 

[Signalian]

Great, its only going to get better with time as I put more stuff in . @The Sandman asked me "where are the air force bases?" when he looked at the sneak peek lol....and fair enough, thats something to think about integrating in at later point too.

You have a list of FOB's ?

 

[Nilgiri]

You have a list of FOB's ?

We'll figure all that out bit later. Sticking to the higher order + ground based stuff for now.

 

[Signalian]

We'll figure all that out bit later. Sticking to the higher order + ground based stuff for now.

ohhh no no no..... im not letting you go that easy ..... is there any information on air combat over this zone in 65 or 71 ?

 

[Nilgiri]

ohhh no no no..... im not letting you go that easy ..... is there any information on air combat over this zone in 65 or 71 ?

@Joe Shearer @Vibrio @jbgt90 would be the ones to ask I'm not that big into the detailed war history of modern subcontinent.

Thats why I think the discord would be useful place to do stuff real time - research + interaction wise

@Signalian @Gryphon

In meantime, if either of you could get a word document in one place of the most up to date official orbat of Pak army like what @Joe Shearer sent me, that would be great. It just makes things lot more convenient for me to refer to (you can see I can just add "done" to task as I plot something):

 

[Signalian]

@Joe Shearer @Vibrio @jbgt90 would be the ones to ask I'm not that big into the detailed war history of modern subcontinent.

Thats why I think the discord would be useful place to do stuff real time - research + interaction wise

@Signalian @Gryphon

In meantime, if either of you could get a word document in one place of the most up to date official orbat of Pak army like what @Joe Shearer sent me, that would be great. It just makes things lot more convenient for me to refer to (you can see I can just add "done" to task as I plot something):

View attachment 546165

If @Gryphon is lazy, then i will jump in.

Meanwhile, do factor in IA IX Corps since it seems to have 26 ID In Jammu and 29 ID in Pathankot and the area east and south of Pathankot is very crucial as it will bring in IA reinforcements from Yol and it also joins up with Amritsar in south to defend the area.

From Pakistan perspective, XXX Corps in Sialkot will have to defend Shakargarh opposite Pathankot, as well as ingress north towards Jammu so it gets divided straightaway.

 

[Nilgiri]

do factor in

If its in Joe's list, it will be included don't you worry (he's done a good job)....yes IX Corps is on it (just didn't get to mapping it yet....but lot of it will be done tonite and tm nite). Though good thing you brought it up, coz I just checked on globalsecurity and you are indeed correct 26th is in Jammu and 29th in pathankot (Joe had these reversed by mistake I think).

I will thus be cross verifying with globalsecurity and other sources at the end of it all too to catch any errors like this on Joe's list....coz I noticed a few divisions might be missing as well.

 

[Signalian]

If its in Joe's list, it will be included don't you worry (he's done a good job)....yes IX Corps is on it (just didn't get to mapping it yet....but lot of it will be done tonite and tm nite). Though good thing you brought it up, coz I just checked on globalsecurity and you are indeed correct 26th is in Jammu and 29th in pathankot (Joe had these reversed by mistake I think).

I will thus be cross verifying with globalsecurity and other sources at the end of it all too to catch any errors like this on Joe's list....coz I noticed a few divisions might be missing as well.

Chup ho ja please You shouldn't have brought it up coz now Joe will point his guns at me that I'm fully monitoring IA formations as well as pointing out mistakes in his work .....abhi to mein map zoom in kar k Yol cantonment mein ghussnay laga tha to see if T-72's were the only MBT's parked in IA Armd Bde's inventory or T-90 can be seen too haha.

By the way i was looking at terrain for armored combat and unfortunately that terrain is mostly inside Pakistan since inside India, hilly area starts straightaway around Jammu, Kathua and Pathankot, whereas inside Pakistan area, Shakargarh, Zafarwal, Pasrur, Daska, Sialkot is mostly flat terrain and plains.

I think a jump off point for 6th Armored Division could be Shakargarh....either going east towards Pathankot and then turning south towards Gurdaspur. Or Just towards Gurdaspur or Batala, heading towards Amritsar.

 

[Nilgiri]

Chup ho ja please You shouldn't have brought it up coz now Joe will point his guns at me that I'm fully monitoring IA formations as well as pointing out mistakes in his work .....abhi to mein map zoom in kar k Yol cantonment mein ghussnay laga tha to see if T-72's were the only MBT's parked in IA Armd Bde's inventory or T-90 can be seen too haha.

By the way i was looking at terrain for armored combat and unfortunately that terrain is mostly inside Pakistan since inside India, hilly area starts straightaway around Jammu, Kathua and Pathankot, whereas inside Pakistan area, Shakargarh, Zafarwal, Pasrur, Daska, Sialkot is mostly flat terrain and plains.

I think a jump off point for 6th Armored Division could be Shakargarh....either going east towards Pathankot and then turning south towards Gurdaspur. Or Just towards Gurdaspur or Batala, heading towards Amritsar.

Let's get everything mapped out and then this fun discussion can commence in earnest

More stuff has been populated tonite (all purely IA INF divisions are done I believe + corps + command labelling), updated it to discord too:

Tomorrow and next cpl days... I will work on mountain divisions, armoured divisions, RAPID, artillery divisions, IABGs, other brigades etc.

Symbols coming up:

etc...

Again dont worry about the "squishing" due to zoom out, I will make it neat and clear in the end in one fell swoop (at whichever zoom level we deem as the "base zoom") ....after populating PAK side as well with all its stuff.

Might as well do everything right now (in large master version) to save time later if we are gonna do any ORBAT/wargaming for other scenarios/locales.

 

[Joe Shearer]

If @Gryphon is lazy, then i will jump in.

Meanwhile, do factor in IA IX Corps since it seems to have 26 ID In Jammu and 29 ID in Pathankot and the area east and south of Pathankot is very crucial as it will bring in IA reinforcements from Yol and it also joins up with Amritsar in south to defend the area.

From Pakistan perspective, XXX Corps in Sialkot will have to defend Shakargarh opposite Pathankot, as well as ingress north towards Jammu so it gets divided straightaway.

?? 9 Corps (they like that way, instead of IX) was there in my tables. I will revise and send @Nilgiri that revision.

I also have that exact format for PA formations, and will send it on in a few minutes, after checking new alerts. Your comment about XXX Corps noted. More after the boss finishes his diagramming.

About air combat, I don't know of anything readymade; the best option is @jbgt90 once he is a little free (busy time for him now).

 

[Nilgiri]

?? 9 Corps (they like that way, instead of IX) was there in my tables. I will revise and send @Nilgiri that revision.

I also have that exact format for PA formations, and will send it on in a few minutes, after checking new alerts. Your comment about XXX Corps noted. More after the boss finishes his diagramming.

About air combat, I don't know of anything readymade; the best option is @jbgt90 once he is a little free (busy time for him now).

its fine, I already switched it around (jammu to pathankot for 26th and 29th) on the version I am working off. I will do a full final check at the end using globalsecurity and run anything discrepancy wise by you lot:

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/divisions.htm

I also have that exact format for PA formations, and will send it on in a few minutes, after checking new alerts.

Excellent, in this case nothing much needed from @Signalian and @Gryphon (for now) ....please ignore my previous request

 

[CrazyZ]

Retaking Kashmir through conventional war is not possible at this time. It is good that its being discussed at PDF, Pakistan has been too gun shy in even thinking of liberating Kashmir with conventional warfare. That mind set has to end going forward with the change in the Indian posture. India wants to challenge Pakistan's "nuclear bluff" with hit and raids with a low enough threshold so WMD won't be used. The current crisis showed India was not serious about escalation and Pakistan is free to counter strike. If it becomes possible to do so Pakistan should counter strike with an all out air land assault to liberate Kashmir.

 

[MIG21DOWN]

Pakistan has the rare advantage that the local population hates the forces of the area we want to invade. Pakistan should not go head on or there will be international condemnation and huge losses on both sides. Instead after America leaves Afghanistan pledge full support for the Kashmiri resistance and get all assets used to win the war in Afghanistan to concentrate on Kashmir. Get a big civil war started inside Kashmir, im talking an uprising like Syria or Afghanistan where Indian troops are having to defend from Pakistan and from behind in Kashmir. A huge weakening like this to India and than invade and take the Valley where the majority live. We dont need to rest of Kashmir just the valley so we can liberate them and join them to AJ/K and establish a permanent border. This is the best option.