Reply to Asad Munir's allegation on Imran Khan's flawed logic !!

[Leader]

This is in response to the article Imran Khan's Flawed Logic on the War on Terror by Brig (R) Asad Munir appearing in the Tribune on 20 Jan 2012...

@ Learned Brigadier Saheb (Retd): Let us discuss POINT-WISE what you have attributed to Imran Khan... .
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1) Suicide bombings are a reaction to drone strikes.:

Imran Khan's assertion is Completely TRUE.... How? The first known DRONE STRIKE in FATA was in 2004 (in which Commander Nek Muhammad alias Kargha Mulla was killed). No PAKISTANI had ever been reported to have carried out Suicide Bombing till 2004. There were some suspected suicide bombings but all were carried out by Alqaeda-affiliated Foreigners especially Chechens & Uzbeks... The Pakistani Suicide Bombers were purely a reaction to Civilian Deaths in Drone Attacks & Pakistani Artillery-cum-Airforce shelling... Remember PASHTUN Psychology of WAR... Pashtuns "Fight to kill"... They never "Fight to Die" INTENTIONALLY (Suicide is an act of COWARDICE in Pashtun society)... But the helplessness (and severe Technological inferiority) in case of DRONE ATTACKS / Artillery led the Tribesmen especially young relatives of Drone victims towards SUICIDE BOMBINGS... This is pure PASHTUN Revenge phenomenon mostly... Although later BRAINWASHING tactics were also employed by militants, but primarily the BOMBERS were volunteers who wanted REVENGE...
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2) There was no violence from militants in the country prior to February 2004, which is when the military entered Fata.

Imran Khan never said "Their was NO VIOLENCE". What he says is that "There were NO organized Attacks against Security Forces till Army entered FATA"... FC and Levies had always been in FATA but they were never targeted before ARMY OPERATIONS.
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3) The people of Fata support the Taliban because they are convinced that it is a movement led by freedom fighters.

Imran Khan never said that. What he says is "People of FATA can't decisively see who is fighting for whom in FATA: the situation is too murky"... Our Army & Govt call it Pakistan's war but get reimbursements for OPERATIONS from USA. This is what confuses the Tribesmen. .
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4) The Pakistan Army ranks do not want to fight an unjust war and have been surrendering in large numbers to small groups of Taliban.

The answer to Point-3 also holds here. And it is true that Security men have been surrendering to the militants. The biggest such incident was of more than 300 Army soldiers surrendering in South Waziristan in 2007. However there have been several incidents in which 10, 20, 30 soldiers have surrendered to militants in different militancy-hit areas. There have been such incidents in Swat, Bajaur, Mohmand, Darra Adam Khel and Orakzai too (especially in Levies, Police & FC)... So Imran Khan is basically right here too.
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5) Peace can be restored, through dialogue, within 90 days.

Yes. Imran Khan is very right. Peace can indeed be restored in 90 days through dialogue. When you convince us Tribesmen that its not "America's Crusade", we will stand beside you. We have been defending this border for 60 years. We defended it against the SUPERPOWER Russia. We can also defend it against the handful of militants. But you have to win OUR TRUST first. We, the tribesmen are more patriotic than any other area of Pakistan. Neglected for 65 years. Killed & made homeless for the last 10 years. But you never hear chants of Independence from Pakistan unlike some other areas (e.g. Balochistan).
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6) There were only 800 al Qaeda terrorists hiding in Pakistan

Imran Khan is right here too. There are several statements of the Pervez Musharraf, General Ali Jan Orakzai, Brig (R) Mehmood Shah etc in which they stated the number of Alqaeda militants operating in FATA to be few Hundreds.
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7) to appease the US and for the sake of earning some dollars, we have put our country’s security and integrity at stake.

Imran Khan is so right here. Our Army & Govt call it Pakistan's war but get reimbursements for OPERATIONS from USA. If its "OUR WAR" why is the USA paying compensations for all the Martyred Soldiers, Civilians & even paying for the deaths of militants (as part of CSF). This is what confuses the Tribesmen and all Pakistanis. ...


Lastly, whatever you have written about Taliban in Bajaur, Orakzai, Waziristan or Malakand before 2001: well those were "State Sponsored Taliban" who were proudly termed by General Babar as "His Sons"... Their presence and standing in local scenario was practically negligible. These Taliban never fought against Pakistan and never interfered in Local's Life (before Military Operations). We, being Tribesmen, know it better than anybody else (sitting in Cozy Drawing Rooms, puffing Cigars, in Islamabad)

TNSM of Sufi Muhammad (in 1994) had an entirely different background and was never part of this PECULIAR sort of militancy that we see now. It was more about widespread discontent of the Malakand Division people with the Judicial & Governance & Political system. It wasn't related to Taliban.

 

[z9-ec]

No need for a new thread. There's one already. Mods please merge.

With regards to reply, the person is clearly deluded. Here he accepts there is no LAW or writ of state in tribal areas and things were bad and yet he says WOT is to blame. I think me and the Brig. Asad Munir have already answered to these questions raised. No point in repeating. I ask Imran Khan:

What will you do to establish writ of state in tribal areas? or would you surrender KPK, Swat and beyond to them? why are Pakistan's laws applicable to me and every other Pakistani but not on tibal lunatics? what would you do when livelihood of people are threatened by lawless radicals enforcing there own inhumane ideology in Swat or beyond? would you let women of tribal belt continue to suffer? would you let them spread inhumane draconian laws throughout Pakistan?

I'm pretty sure even the all knowing Imran Khan (being sarcastic) would fail to answer my questions.

 

[Leader]

^^ you need to know some history...


there is nothing to be done, follow the Jinnah's truce with the tribal !!

 

[ikram309]

DEAR FRIENDS CALL OR SMS ME ON MY NUMBER. 00923426548769 I NEED YOUR HELP

 

[Qasibr]

These "tribal lunatics" have always been very patriotic Pakistanis. In 1948 when India attacked Kashmir and Pakistan had no army worth it's name, these "tribal lunatics" went ahead and captured Azad Kashmir and Baltistan. With India's pro-Afghan policies having their effect, when the Afghan army snuck nearly a thousand soldiers to create discord in Waziristan(expecting the locals, who were fellow Pathan, to be on their side), it was these Pathan tribesmen that kicked them out - this is a little-known fact from our history.

And when India crossed the International Border with overwhelming force in 1965 and the situation in Lahore and Sialkot became desperate, these tribesmen gathered in Lashkars(militia) and offered to lay their lives down for Pakistan.

Some people support Musharraf to the point of fanaticism, but he was a dumb idiot for attacking Waziristan to please the US. Even during the British occupation, this area cost the British more lives than anywhere else. The more people killed, the more people rose up against them(Pakhtoonwali code of honor - death of a family member is avenged).

And this article is a little dishonest, as many Express Tribune articles tend to be. Yes, there were Tableeghi movements in Waziristan wanting Islamic law in the area(the area and the inhabitants being a deeply religious/Islamic), but these well-supplied militants armed with the latest weapons only arrived after the US invasion. Saying this area had "taliban" long before the US came is wrong, there is a difference between Afghan "taliban"(they don't call themselves that) fighting for their freedom inside their own country, and these "pakistan taliban" who refuse to fight the US but attack women&children by bombing shops and public places in Pakistan. These militants get their supplies from the US, and US-backed Indian presence in Afghanistan. These militants have thousands of people who need to be fed three times a day, clothed, every bullet they fire needs to be supplied; this requires a massive supply-line. This supply-line came from Afghanistan(Chinese media has openly reported on this). With the US experiencing supply problems in Afghanistan, these militants have *also* been experiencing supply problems, and for the first time, are very keen for peace. When these "pakistan taliban" kidnapped Col. Imaam(who had trained the Mujahideen in the 80's and had been Mullah Omar's teacher), Mullah Omar sent a delegation to request that the Col. be released, but these "taliban" refused. So clearly, these are not the same "taliban", as the author implies.

So Imran Khan is not wrong in saying this militant problem started when we joined America's "War of Terror". The American media focuses on these militants way too much, and their propaganda spin is always saying Pakistan is fighting an internal civil war and our nukes could fall into militant hands anytime(creating a background story, to justify themselves if they do move in to remove our nuclear assets). We do need to get out of this war - it is America's war and not ours. We've had thousands of blastsever since the US came in and started sponsoring all this terrorism here, before the US came, we had had ONE single suicide blast in Pakistan, ever(and that too, was an Egyptian who tried bombing the Egyptian embassy in Pakistan). So Imran Khan is right about us needing to get out of this war. IK says we need to disengage, essentially pay blood-money to people who's family&relatives we've killed and who are fighting us because of that, and identify and root out the real militants and take them out.

Second dishonest thing in this article is - it mentions that a number of peace deals have been made but they were all broken. Yes they were broken, but broken by WHO? That implies that these peace deals were broken by "the other side", whereas, even the Army Chief himself mentioned during the all-party conference late last year, that these deals were never broken by the tribals but always by our side, either due to American drones killing people who'd made peace deals with us, or Pakistan directly reneging it's agreements due to US pressure.

@Leader - this was my take on this issue. The Express Tribune article by the brig. even had some factual inaccuracies, and I've addressed them above.

 

[Leader]

@Leader - this was my take on this issue. The Express Tribune article by the brig. even had some factual inaccuracies, and I've addressed them above.

I took it from a blog,

---------- Post added at 08:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

just found him on twitter @asadmunir38 in his reply said @ "I have not alleged anything,just gave my opinion, i do not claim that i am right ,i may b wrong"

the guy is not even sure himself, let alone others.

 

[Qasibr]

Well, many of the things the guy based his argument on, were factually wrong.

The guy is either a very mis-informed idiot, or more likely(given the "pointed" nature of all the things he said), he had an agenda and was intentionally trying to mislead.

 

[Leader]

^^ the blogger apparently lives in FATA. and the guy Asad munir agreed to him... I dont know about you.

 

[Qasibr]

@Leader - I don't follow what you mean. The blogger's points shred Asad Munir's criticism of Imran Khan to pieces. Asad Munir contended that Imran Khan was wrong about the basic facts on the ground, but many of the points the blogger raises contradicts Asad Munir.

Now does Asad Munir agree with this blogger's criticism of Munir's earlier article, and essentially admit that he was dead wrong in that article?

 

[Leader]

^^ well I followed their conversation on Twitter, where Asad munir did twit in the end what I pasted in post 6.

so apparently he did back out

 

[Zarvan]

A Person only needs some common sense to check out the amount attacks which used to take place before 2004 operation were from FATA or not if a Brigadier can't even do that than he needs get his brain checked Tribals have always reacted to foreign Armies and our Armed Forces entered Tribal Areas on American orders which made us American Puppets in front of Tribal People and that is the reason they are getting so much support against us

 

[All-Green]

No need for a new thread. There's one already. Mods please merge.

With regards to reply, the person is clearly deluded. Here he accepts there is no LAW or writ of state in tribal areas and things were bad and yet he says WOT is to blame. I think me and the Brig. Asad Munir have already answered to these questions raised. No point in repeating. I ask Imran Khan:

What will you do to establish writ of state in tribal areas? or would you surrender KPK, Swat and beyond to them? why are Pakistan's laws applicable to me and every other Pakistani but not on tibal lunatics? what would you do when livelihood of people are threatened by lawless radicals enforcing there own inhumane ideology in Swat or beyond? would you let women of tribal belt continue to suffer? would you let them spread inhumane draconian laws throughout Pakistan?

I'm pretty sure even the all knowing Imran Khan (being sarcastic) would fail to answer my questions.

Establish the writ?
The tribal areas had been like this since creation of Pakistan and even before that.
They are not easy areas to travel into but they did not harbor any fifth column working against Pakistan.

However the militancy in Punjab where the likes of Laskhar e Jhangvi came into being was something that should never have occurred and has actually given birth to anti state elements which are the most hard hitting of them all.

I do not buy that Tribal areas are the biggest problem, they are a problem but more grave are the concerns regarding the militant organizations which have sprouted in Punjab and then the ones in Baluchistan.
Ideologically these are the ones we need to address.

Regarding Swat.
It was totally the fault of the government.
I have had conflicting views on this but now I am convinced that it was Musharraf and his entire security team including the head of ISI etc. who are not only to be blamed for this but need to be taken to task for allowing the insurgency to grow in an area which was never ever a hotbed of extremism.
The head of Swat Taliban operated multiple FM Radio Channels for years, spewing poison and making people feel helpless.
If a person can openly give open threats on illegal radio channels without the brave government taking him to task, it does not take a genius to figure out that he is well connected.
The insurgency grew stronger and yet there was no action, no crackdown.
Eventually the police was attacked in broad daylight and police stations themselves were attacked but still there was only token presence of troops and FC in the region who for some reason took no decisive action.
Then the situation became so bad that people left their cities and migrated and those who remained were victims of a terror regime which was a state within a state.

When the tribal leaders and Jirgas were being massacred in FATA, there was no respite since even Swat was a militant strong hold.
Surrounded by all sides and due to non decisive action and lack of a plan, TTP eliminated any and all resistance in FATA and made room for itself.

Swat insurgency was not something that could have been handled at province level, it was a full fledged invasion.
Where was Musharraf when this all happened?
Where was the High command when a huge district called the Switzerland of Pakistan was overrun?

There is no answer for this which can satisfy the more learned observers.
A game was allowed to go on in Swat and the cost was the lives of Pakistanis and ruining of Pakistan's paradise.

I am sorry but it is absolutely pathetic to let the militant free regions like Swat and Punjab become breeding ground for militancy and then whine about the tribal areas.

The Tribal areas do have a gun culture but it has been the norm since times ancient and is not a direct threat to Pakistan which has suddenly surfaced.
Even regarding post 9-11 scenario, it has been our blunders which allowed militants to seek refuge in FATA.
Most of the people hiding in FATA have been trained elsewhere and this is something we all need to realize.

Our problem has been lack of a coherent strategy to tackle all forms of extremism and failure to see the writing on the wall regarding militancy in Pakistan especially in Punjab, 9-11, Afghan Invasion, Insurgency in Swat etc. FATA comes very late into the picture and we failed to step in at the right time when the tribal leaders and jirgas were not decimated by TTP.

We can surely improve a lot of things in FATA to enable the locals to have better lives and in order to make these areas easily accessible for other non local Pakistanis which has not been the case since Pakistan.
However the martial tribal society in FATA is not the root cause of extremism in Pakistan especially religious extremism or anti state extremism which results in attacks on targets all over Pakistan.

 

[All-Green]

^^ you need to know some history...


there is nothing to be done, follow the Jinnah's truce with the tribal !!

No need to allow FATA to remain inaccessible to other Pakistanis.
It has been a case that any outsider going to FATA is not secure and needs some local affiliation.
This should end, however it shall take time.

We can make changes, however they should be practical and positive changes.

We should make the Tribal areas part of mainstream Pakistan.
We should make Tribal areas into a province and give them similar political structure as of rest of Pakistan.
We should help develop these areas and address the education and health related issues.
The political agent system needs to be discarded as it causes a lot of bad blood and nonsense.

It should be a logical development which should be based on ground realities and practical constraints.
At the end of the day, I think a developed FATA would be much more secure and accessible to everyone.

 

[Qasibr]

No need to allow FATA to remain inaccessible to other Pakistanis.
It has been a case that any outsider going to FATA is not secure and needs some local affiliation.
This should end, however it shall take time.

FATA was always accessible to other Pakistanis, even Imran Khan extensively toured the area, he's got many pictures from there in his book, "An Indus Journey".

You are correct in that people are not secure in FATA these days without local affiliation and protection. However, this only began after the US invaded Afghanistan and started creating all sorts of trouble inside Pakistan. Suddenly, FATA was the source of all the troubles the world is facing, these people living in FATA are butchered and killed sitting in their own homes when some "drone attack" occurs.

According to law, suspects are taken to court where evidence for/against them is required. In no law-abiding society are SUSPECTS(remember, as the term suggests, a "suspect" is someone only suspected of wrong-doing), is not butchered along with his whole family, children, elders, and neighbors without even giving them a chance to clear themselves in court.

About your point in integrating FATA with the rest of Pakistan. Pakistani laws *suck*. Our laws are derived from British law, it is very bureaucratic and costly. Cases remain pending for decades, there is a huge backlog at every level of the judiciary(session courts, high courts, *all* courts essentially) and often, by the time people's cases are finally heard, the people involved may not even be alive.

The law they have in FATA are simple, the local people decide, by collective consensus, what is to be done in disputes. "Cases" are solved within hours and days, no lawyers and judges have to be bribed. There is room for improvement, as the example goes, if there are two wolves and one sheep, the two wolves can "democratically" decide to deprive the sheep of it's rights.

But it has to be done according to the wishes of the people, we cannot be some western-style colonizer dictating and forcing our will onto other people. If our own legal system is appealing and efficient, people would want to join it.

 

[Leader]

^^All-Green
but unless EDUCATION doesnot change the grass route reality, linking FATA to mainstream should be viewed with a critic's glasses. as there is a window that opens into Afghanistan, smuggling, human trafficking, kidnapping for ransom, assassins do take refuge in this area and that regional pakhtoonism is a constant concern as well, cannot delink this either.

But I am really looking forward to Imran khan's dream of Knowledge city in Mianwali to be the breeding ground of intellectuals, from the region.