Repairing Japan-China ties

[terranMarine]

@Nihonjin1051 East Asian integration plan is still somewhere in the drawer?

 

[Aepsilons]

@Nihonjin1051 East Asian integration plan is still somewhere in the drawer?

Of course, i suppose, sometimes us common folks react to the issues , but these issues are passing points. They come and go. Japan and China , as ancient civilizations that share a common history over 3,000 years, transcend the times, and the news issues.

 

[Echo_419]

LOS ANGELES – For all its problems, Japan requires no one’s sympathy. It remains a proud and successful nation, a unique and rewarding culture and an economy not by any remote stretch of exaggeration or bizarre imagination an Asian Greece (suddenly the most turbulent modern economy).

On the contrary, its per capita income still dwarfs that of China’s, and for a population of 127 million — only a touch more than Mexico’s and well short of Russia’s — the fact is that its economy usually gets ranked as No. 3 worldwide, even above powerhouse Germany. But Japan, the second-largest financial contributor to the United Nations and a major global player in many other respects, does not always get respect. In part that’s because, these days, the land of the rising sun is dwarfed by the shadow of China.

And now the Japanese people, among the most pacifist and anti-nuclear on Earth, have become unsettled, somewhat on edge and perhaps feeling (wrongly or rightly) a little double-crossed. According to many opinion polls, they have begun to distrust China’s intentions and doubt the validity and wisdom of their nation’s pragmatic attitude and policy toward their gigantic neighbor on the other side of the Korean Peninsula.

China is now Japan’s No. 1 foreign issue. The impact has changed the domestic political landscape dramatically: “To be successful, Japanese leaders must persuade their public that cooperation with China will reduce Japan’s vulnerabilities rather than exacerbate them,” reports Japan expert Sheila A. Smith, senior fellow at the U.S. Council on Foreign Relations, in her surpassingly comprehensive book “Intimate Rivals.” “The old ways of managing its relationship with China are no longer effective.”

Japan has begun viewing China more as an existential challenge than as a jolly-good regional customer of its many polished and brilliant exports. The causes of this sea change are many, but of course the various claims and counter claims — and shoves and bumps — in the East China Sea have scarcely bolstered bilateral comity.

Another annoyance in Japan is this: China’s well-known advocacy of a worldwide policy of non-interference in a country’s internal affairs (especially China’s) tends to be honored mainly in the non-observance when it comes to Japan’s own internal affairs, about which Beijing often makes public commentary, not often complimentary.

Japan is certainly vulnerable to criticism, as is any country. It did many very bad things in the war that it lost. China and others often complain about its “bulimic” official memory, especially regarding the atrocities. Leaving aside the validity of the constant harangue, there is the question of its efficacy. As Smith’s book points out, the result of all the nagging is to harden Japanese domestic sentiment against China.

Then there are Japan’s indignant right-wing pressure groups and annoying lobbies that do wish China serious ill. But thanks to Beijing’s rhetorical battering, they have gotten strong new wind in their political sails. Now the Japanese are seriously debating whether to upend the Constitution so as to expand their military space and, inferentially, jump into an East Asian arms race, presumably with that good old fighting spirit.

There is immense irony here and it is truly heartbreaking. Author Smith points out with poignant perspective that support from the Japanese public for grandstanding visits of its politicians to war shrines and the like actually has been undergoing decline due to generational turnover. And, she reports, the nation’s nationalistic right wing is actually less unified than fragmented: It turns out that all Japanese conservatives are not cut from the same grumpy cloth.

But harrowing sea confrontations between fishing vessels and military ships serve to narrow differences; loud rhetoric from Beijing plays into the wrong political hands. Instead of winning over public opinion, Chinese policy would appear to be making the Japanese chafe about their military readiness. How smart is this? Wasn’t it Sun Tzu, like about a million years ago, who wrote: “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting”?

Beijing’s policy toward Japan needs to be rethought. Smith’s definitive book nails the point that Japanese foreign policy in general (and toward China in particular) is almost entirely driven by domestic politics, pressures and lobbies. There is no overall conceptual framework; the national emotion is becoming increasingly existential.

Thus the problem for Chinese as well as Japanese diplomacy is daunting. Are the domestic politics of each nation antithetical to continued peace? Pugnacious groups on both sides are gaining leverage; and mutually respectful diplomacy loses out to petty pugnacity, especially over stupid island territorial issues. As Smith concludes: “The potential for heightened tension — and perhaps even conflict — will make it increasingly difficult to go back to Deng Xiaoping’s (legendary) approach to leaving the problem to future generations to resolve.”

For starters, China’s Japan policy is in a box that Beijing has got to begin figuring some way out of.



Reference: THE JAPAN TIMES

Hard chance

 

[Aepsilons]

@terranMarine pen pal; in other words, Prime MInisters, Presidents, Generals, Emperors and Time periods come and go. They rise and they fall as the bean sprouts we harvest. Like cherry blossoms that come and go. But Japan and China will always will be there.

Let us not burn bridges because the problems our countries may have now is only subject to the times we are living now.

China and Japan will always be there; the Ying and the Yang.

 

[terranMarine]

@terranMarine pen pal; in other words, Prime MInisters, Presidents, Generals, Emperors and Time periods come and go. They rise and they fall as the bean sprouts we harvest. Like cherry blossoms that come and go. But Japan and China will always will be there.

Let us not burn bridges because the problems our countries may have now is only subject to the times we are living now.

China and Japan will always be there; the Ying and the Yang.

European integration is not exactly a success story now is it? However despite the political challenges both countries may face in this volatile region there are always room for diplomacy to keep things in check and not let it get out of control as long Japan remembers the lessons from the past. SCS is also one of the topics Japan must treat with caution since she is not even a claimant. How Sino-Japanese relation will develop will always depend on Japanese side how to handle delicate matters appropriately. May there be more cooperation between these two ancient entities

 

[j20blackdragon]

We are talking about two ancient civilizations that have existed even before the rise of the Roman Empire. Japan is over 3 thousand years old, older than Judaism, than Christianity, than Islam, older than the Roman Empire, or the Golden Hellenistic Period. China is equally ancient, even greater, as she is over 5000 years old. Japan and China have been interacting with each other for over 3,000 years, and in that time period, there has been trade, there has been cultural impression, there has been political cooperation, as well as been some conflict.

Japan was illiterate until the 5th century AD and you're comparing yourself to Rome? Seriously, just give it a f*cking rest already.

Kanji - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Aepsilons]

Japan was illiterate until the 5th century AD and you're comparing yourself to Rome? Seriously, just give it a f*cking rest already.

Kanji - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

View attachment 245044

Most of the recent immigrants to Japan were Yayoi who came from China and Korea, who came in the hundreds of thousands during the 5th century BCE. Do you understand that 'Japan' was inhabited prior to the Yayoi Colonization? These indigenous Jomon people and Ainu people had their own phonetic writing system , and their own language.

Japan did not begin with the Yayois who came from China. Japanese History goes back to the Jomon Jidai.

This period extends back to 2500 BCE.

Ainu language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jōmon period - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jomon / Ainu Writing System:

 

[j20blackdragon]

Most of the recent immigrants to Japan were Yayoi who came from China and Korea, who came in the hundreds of thousands during the 5th century BCE. Do you understand that 'Japan' was inhabited prior to the Yayoi Colonization? These indigenous Jomon people and Ainu people had their own phonetic writing system , and their own language.

Japan did not begin with the Yayois who came from China. Japanese History goes back to the Jomon Jidai.

This period extends back to 2500 BCE.

Ainu language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jōmon period - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jomon / Ainu Writing System:

I'm sure savages like the Native Americans had their own spoken languages too. That doesn't mean they had an actual system of writing. It also doesn't mean the United States can somehow claim several thousand years of history based on Native American history. Modern-day Americans are clearly people of European descent. Native Americans are from Asia.

Do you have any physical, archaeological evidence of a written language in Japan prior to the importation of Chinese characters? A clay tablet? A stone tablet? Anything at all? I'd like to see it.

 

[Defunct]

I think the best option is for China to wipe out Japan. They still need to seek revenge from the past.

 

[TheTruth]

Well said Taiwan bro!


P.S.:

May I side-track a bit, last time in Taipei I noticed the Map of ROC differs to that of PRC, the biggest difference is on Mongolia, see below. Well I read some background about it but if you want to share some viewpoints welcome to start a new thread and tag me, thanks!

Look at Xinjiang, Yunnan-Myanmar border as well, haha

 

[j20blackdragon]

And here's the history of Chinese writing.

History of writing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BBC article:

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Chinese writing '8,000 years old'

 

[Aepsilons]

And here's the history of Chinese writing.

History of writing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

View attachment 245148

BBC article:

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Chinese writing '8,000 years old'

The point is that you tried posting a photoshot of a wikipedia article claiming that Japan had no writing system since the 5th century AD, which is not true, since the Jomon Japanese Civilization (Pre-Yayoi) had its own writing system, its ownn language, etc. One that stems back 2500 BCE.

You see, J20blackdragon, Japan, as a civilization state, is divided into stratal layers. The deeper we go in history say before the 5th century BCE, there was a thriving Jomon Civilization that goes back as back as the 2500 BCE. It was only in the 5th century BCE that the Chinese immigration to Japan occurred and was done through a land bridge that connected what is now Shikoku and Honshu to what is modern day mainland China and the Korean peninsula.

The point? Japan has had its own language system(s) for nearly 5,000 years. When people say Japan's history stretches for 3,000 years, we are only including the Early Yayoi Jidai to present. But if we are to include Jomon Japanese History, well, then, that stretches over 5,000 years.


In other words --- Japan is literally one of the oldest civilizations in the world.

 

[j20blackdragon]

The point is that you tried posting a photoshot of a wikipedia article claiming that Japan had no writing system since the 5th century AD, which is not true, since the Jomon Japanese Civilization (Pre-Yayoi) had its own writing system, its ownn language, etc. One that stems back 2500 BCE.

You see, J20blackdragon, Japan, as a civilization state, is divided into stratal layers. The deeper we go in history say before the 5th century BCE, there was a thriving Jomon Civilization that goes back as back as the 2500 BCE. It was only in the 5th century BCE that the Chinese immigration to Japan occurred and was done through a land bridge that connected what is now Shikoku and Honshu to what is modern day mainland China and the Korean peninsula.

The point? Japan has had its own language system(s) for nearly 5,000 years. When people say Japan's history stretches for 3,000 years, we are only including the Early Yayoi Jidai to present. But if we are to include Jomon Japanese History, well, then, that stretches over 5,000 years.


In other words --- Japan is literally one of the oldest civilizations in the world.

You need to prove it.

Your word is not good enough.

So once again I ask for physical, archaeological evidence (that can be dated) of a written language prior to the importation of Chinese characters.

For example, do you have anything older than this?

King of Na gold seal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Aepsilons]

You need to prove it.

Your word is not good enough.

So once again I ask for physical, archaeological evidence (that can be dated) of a written language prior to the importation of Chinese characters.

For example, do you have anything older than this?

King of Na gold seal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, bro, there's so much. I would encourage you to visit, ever, Hokkaido Historical Museum , their department of Anthropology has plenty of written plaques, old carvings that have the Aynu Itak, which is the writing and language style of the Ainu Jomon. Definitely go visit Hokkaido bro, and you will be just awed at the history of the Jomon people documented in the museums.

Lastly, I'm not discounting the influence of Kanji, bro. Japanese writing language is actually a manifestation of the Chinese and Jomon influence merged into one. Kanji , is Chinese Hanzi, and forms the base of nouns in our writing. However, we also have phonetic characters known as Hiragana and Katakana, which are actually influenced by the Jomon aspect.

So you see, Japanese is a product of the amalgamation of Chinese influence (the people and the writing style, the culture) and Jomon influence (the people, and the writing style, and culture).


----

@j20blackdragon , this is one vase found in lower Honshu that is of Jomon origin, there are written words on the base. It is of the Jomon Itak script, this base is over 4000 years old, bro.

 

[j20blackdragon]

Yes, bro, there's so much. I would encourage you to visit, ever, Hokkaido Historical Museum , their department of Anthropology has plenty of written plaques, old carvings that have the Aynu Itak, which is the writing and language style of the Ainu Jomon. Definitely go visit Hokkaido bro, and you will be just awed at the history of the Jomon people documented in the museums.

Lastly, I'm not discounting the influence of Kanji, bro. Japanese writing language is actually a manifestation of the Chinese and Jomon influence merged into one. Kanji , is Chinese Hanzi, and forms the base of nouns in our writing. However, we also have phonetic characters known as Hiragana and Katakana, which are actually influenced by the Jomon aspect.

So you see, Japanese is a product of the amalgamation of Chinese influence (the people and the writing style, the culture) and Jomon influence (the people, and the writing style, and culture).


----

@j20blackdragon , this is one vase found in lower Honshu that is of Jomon origin, there are written words on the base. It is of the Jomon Itak script, this base is over 4000 years old, bro.

You're talking about this Jomon vessel with flame-like ornamentation right?

File:MiddleJomonVessel.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

File:Jomon vessel 3000-2000BC.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What proof do you have that there is a written language on the vase? Any child given a piece of paper and pencil can make some nice decorations. It's not a system of writing.