Religious scholars vows to resist liberalisation of pakistan

[Zibago]

Remember rule no 1 of internet

So

@django

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What can anybody do when the Mullahs have the legal foundation created by the Objectives Resolution? They must kowtow, and the Mullahs know it.

The Mullah's do not have a 'legal foundation to threaten violence and anarchy' to shut down dissent and debate in society. You're looking at the issue from a very narrow prism of a specific part of the constitution - it isn't the language of the OR that is the problem, the problem is the fact that attitudes and views in Pakistani society will not be able to evolve freely without the State cracking down on Mullahs threatening and perpetrating violence against those whose views they disagree with.

Take the US for example - the basic rights enshrined in the US constitution were the same when slavery and segregation was widespread. The problem was a socio-cultural one, in that the elected leadership, judiciary and law enforcement were all part of the same socio-cultural system that found slavery and segregation acceptable. It was only with time and the freedom for intellectuals, politicians and society to engage in open discourse about potential change that social attitudes started to change, which in turn was reflected in academia, and in turn reflected in the judiciary which in turn allowed the passing of land-mark judicial rulings against regressive and unconstitutional practices.

Pakistani society (and Islamic societies in general) needs to go through the same process, of having the freedom to debate and discuss theology and the nature of Islam and whether prevalent attitudes and views that discriminate and promote intolerance and hatred are acceptable and should be changed. Allow for that social discourse to happen freely and without fear and over time change will occur, with or without the Objectives Resolution being part of Pakistan's constitution.

 

[Zibago]

The problem with zealots is they erroneously believe that only their view is correct and everyone else is wrong, so by definition they (the people who dont share their views) are not true believers and are kafir/apostates hence they have to be put to death, this is a recipe for disaster , one only has to look at Algeria,Iraq etc

In kay siva sab kafir masjid kay andar kafir masjid kay bahar bhe kafir
Main bhi KAFIR tu bhi KAFIR

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistanis can only understand the danda because we as a people have a primitive outlook on life.

Actually, that's the gist of my point - the Pakistani government (politicians, law enforcement, local authorities responsibile for compliance with zoning and building regulations) all need to enforce the law of the land on the Mullahs through the danda.

The Mullah, more than anyone else, needs the danda to be kept in line, and unfortunately the State (as can be see with Mullah Aunty of Lal Masjid fame) is allowed to get away with anything. If I recall correctly, there is some archaic law in Pakistan that prevents the government from demolishing any mosque once it's been constructed - hello, Mullah Kabza Mafia Zindabad!

 

[django]

Remember rule no 1 of internet

So

@django

@Zibago Their is a new troll on the forum @The-king .beware of him zibago.kudos yaar

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

This is the entire problem. Mullahs who don't even understand what secularism is and how it can be tailored for our religious needs want to complain against a system that has taken medieval europe out of extreme poverty and deprivation other than destroying poverty and the popes interference completely.

We are never taught about the various secular movements in the sub continent and the world at large. We are never taught about liberals like Taha Hussain and Muhammed Farooq. They vouched strongly for the secular concept and they are/were the foremost scholars on Islam.

Europe was not taken out of poverty by secularism! The wars in late 19th and early 20th century brought them Christian secularism whereby they accepted living with other denominations second world War brought the Judeo-christian secularism. This partly explains why Muslims are still not part of the accepted groups in the west. Now your earlier assumption that about poverty... It was the interest based financial system that financed industry, colonialism, wars and migration that propelled Europe and America out of poverty. In fact debt financing was the primary tool that pulled war ravaged Europe out of misery after 2nd world war. Now do your research!

 

[django]

In kay siva sab kafir masjid kay andar kafir masjid kay bahar bhe kafir
Main bhi KAFIR tu bhi KAFIR

They should go and join their pals in Daesh, and leave us peaceful law abiding citizens alone to live are lives in peace and sensible moderation.kudos.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

You yourself stated that loyalty to Pakistan is not your primary concern - then what reason do you have to be in Pakistan? It's one thing to state that you are loyal to Pakistan but disagree with the policies and laws, and want to remain in Pakistan to bring about change by working within the system, but you can't even state that loyalty to Pakistan comes first for you.

Bhai you are asking me to choose my faith over Pakistan. You've said what comes first and I tell you my love/loyality for ALLAH and his NABI (as'salathu was'salaam) comes before my love/loyality for my parents and anything, and everything else.

We are not talking about choosing which car is better; rather talking about hell and heaven!

As a Pakistani, I obey the law of the land. We don't vote in nizam al-Kufr. This is why NO REAL Ulima Ikram vote or partake in the corrupt anti-Islamic system. With respect to JUI and Tahirul Qadari, we know who and what they are!

You my friend is really manipulated by some random Mufti , but that day is not far when these Muftis will not be able to control our society .. Pakistan well become Land of pure , A land purified by the influence of mullah as the knowledge and wisdom will approach to more peoples. Mullah and religious authorities are most dangerous people for any nation, they have historically used civilians against their own governments and you are practical example of it.

Bhai jaan don't make silly statements and insulting our beloved Ulima-ikram. Yes, we want peaceful transfer of power to the Ulima Ikram. I pray for that day for the people to be more knowledgeable of their faith.

Again, let me reiterate as it seems people here are wearing blinkers; we want PEACEFUL transfer of power and remain patient until Allah gives the keys of power to the Ulima Ikram.

Tell me who can achieve PEACE with Hindustan? Tell me who can solve the IOK and Siachen problem? Only the Ulima Ikram can do this. The secularists and fanatical liberals have ruined the country for 70 years and there is a lot of mess that needs cleaning up. People are poor, no law and order, Pakistan's image ruined (called, Pakistanis would sell their mother for a $1000 and now for a dinner), no education for the poor, no electricity, wide-spread and open corruption.

Secularists have done a lot of damage to the land of the pure and filled their own pockets. Strange they go into gormant poor and come out rich.

Identity doesn't come from wearing a particular kind of clothing,

Yes, it does. If you're not happy who you are then you're a slave of those you follow. We are salves of Allah and not to any nation or man.

look at the pathetic state of Muslim societies where religion plays a major role in government.

In Pakistan we don't have religion playing any part in gormant. Pakistan is a secular country.

Oh so now i am a qafiyani .. Not surpsied .. Its old routine and your comments when u cant come back with a logical reply Than step 1. Declare traitor .. Followed by Blaming west .. jews .. Blame hindus if not qadiayani , shia , pepsicola , mc donalds ...

If you are not then I sincerely apologise for attributing you to the deviants.

Why so why dont they vote for the islamists (all kinds) And what made u say that the threating liberals and secular sucide bombers Can leave the country if they dont like it

Show me when I said that before I call you a LIAR?

I think he wants swat style re in all of Pakistan

Bhai, why don't you say more accurately, we want the Khulfa-Arashidoon style of governance.

In kay siva sab kafir masjid kay andar kafir masjid kay bahar bhe kafir
Main bhi KAFIR tu bhi KAFIR

Masha'Allah borth hoob!

 

[Zibago]

Bhai you are asking me to choose my faith over Pakistan. You've said what comes first and I tell you my love/loyality for ALLAH and his NABI (as'salathu was'salaam) comes before my love/loyality for my parents and anything, and everything else.

We are not talking about choosing which car is better; rather talking about hell and heaven!

As a Pakistani, I obey the law of the land. We don't vote in nizam al-Kufr. This is why NO REAL Ulima Ikram vote or partake in the corrupt anti-Islamic system. With respect to JUI and Tahirul Qadari, we know who and what they are!



Bhai jaan don't make silly statements and insulting our beloved Ulima-ikram. Yes, we want peaceful transfer of power to the Ulima Ikram. I pray for that day for the people to be more knowledgeable of their faith.

Again, let me reiterate as it seems people here are wearing blinkers; we want PEACEFUL transfer of power and remain patient until Allah gives the keys of power to the Ulima Ikram.

Tell me who can achieve PEACE with Hindustan? Tell me who can solve the IOK and Siachen problem? Only the Ulima Ikram can do this. The secularists and fanatical liberals have ruined the country for 70 years and there is a lot of mess that needs cleaning up. People are poor, no law and order, Pakistan's image ruined (called, Pakistanis would sell their mother for a $1000 and now for a dinner), no education for the poor, no electricity, wide-spread and open corruption.

Secularists have done a lot of damage to the land of the pure and filled their own pockets. Strange they go into gormant poor and come out rich.



Yes, it does. If you're not happy who you are then you're a slave of those you follow. We are salves of Allah and not to any nation or man.



In Pakistan we don't have religion playing any part in gormant. Pakistan is a secular country.



If you are not then I sincerely apologise for attributing you to the deviants.



Show me when I said that before I call you a LIAR?



Bhai, why don't you say more accurately, we want the Khulfa-Arashidoon style of governance.



Masha'Allah borth hoob!

You can start your own party

 

[Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy]

Bhai you are asking me to choose my faith over Pakistan. You've said what comes first and I tell you my love/loyality for ALLAH and his NABI (as'salathu was'salaam) comes before my love/loyality for my parents and anything, and everything else.

We are not talking about choosing which car is better; rather talking about hell and heaven!

As a Pakistani, I obey the law of the land. We don't vote in nizam al-Kufr. This is why NO REAL Ulima Ikram vote or partake in the corrupt anti-Islamic system. With respect to JUI and Tahirul Qadari, we know who and what they are!



Bhai jaan don't make silly statements and insulting our beloved Ulima-ikram. Yes, we want peaceful transfer of power to the Ulima Ikram. I pray for that day for the people to be more knowledgeable of their faith.

Again, let me reiterate as it seems people here are wearing blinkers; we want PEACEFUL transfer of power and remain patient until Allah gives the keys of power to the Ulima Ikram.

Tell me who can achieve PEACE with Hindustan? Tell me who can solve the IOK and Siachen problem? Only the Ulima Ikram can do this. The secularists and fanatical liberals have ruined the country for 70 years and there is a lot of mess that needs cleaning up. People are poor, no law and order, Pakistan's image ruined (called, Pakistanis would sell their mother for a $1000 and now for a dinner), no education for the poor, no electricity, wide-spread and open corruption.

Secularists have done a lot of damage to the land of the pure and filled their own pockets. Strange they go into gormant poor and come out rich.



Yes, it does. If you're not happy who you are then you're a slave of those you follow. We are salves of Allah and not to any nation or man.



In Pakistan we don't have religion playing any part in gormant. Pakistan is a secular country.



If you are not then I sincerely apologise for attributing you to the deviants.



Show me when I said that before I call you a LIAR?



Bhai, why don't you say more accurately, we want the Khulfa-Arashidoon style of governance.



Masha'Allah borth hoob!

both neratives being described here are extreme either one side or other islam is between extremnism of terror and extreme of libralism (madr pidr azadi)

both neratives being described here are extreme either one side or other islam is between extremnism of terror and extreme of libralism (madr pidr azadi)

definations of seculerism and libralism are desputed in my opinion when ulama say bad about libralism they are talking about sexism and fudelist mindset attached to it and no check and balance through islamic law in islamic society i.e pakistan etc type of libralism and secularism but sane ulema dont say bad about libralism and secularism provided in islam.

 

[VCheng]

The Mullah's do not have a 'legal foundation to threaten violence and anarchy' to shut down dissent and debate in society. You're looking at the issue from a very narrow prism of a specific part of the constitution - it isn't the language of the OR that is the problem, the problem is the fact that attitudes and views in Pakistani society will not be able to evolve freely without the State cracking down on Mullahs threatening and perpetrating violence against those whose views they disagree with.

Take the US for example - the basic rights enshrined in the US constitution were the same when slavery and segregation was widespread. The problem was a socio-cultural one, in that the elected leadership, judiciary and law enforcement were all part of the same socio-cultural system that found slavery and segregation acceptable. It was only with time and the freedom for intellectuals, politicians and society to engage in open discourse about potential change that social attitudes started to change, which in turn was reflected in academia, and in turn reflected in the judiciary which in turn allowed the passing of land-mark judicial rulings against regressive and unconstitutional practices.

Pakistani society (and Islamic societies in general) needs to go through the same process, of having the freedom to debate and discuss theology and the nature of Islam and whether prevalent attitudes and views that discriminate and promote intolerance and hatred are acceptable and should be changed. Allow for that social discourse to happen freely and without fear and over time change will occur, with or without the Objectives Resolution being part of Pakistan's constitution.

Again, for the second time in as many weeks, we must agree to disagree, Sir. I have good reasons to stick to my position, and you, yours.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

What good has exactly come out of these madrasas? Its good to have a religious knowledge but studying just about religion will not help you to work with world outside your own country. I would like to see institutions where people are taught to bring scientific revolutions instead of just sitting and cramming scriptures.

Do u realise scientific revolution will lead to questioning of religion and God. There is one poster here, who wants extreme liberals should be punished. So Islam allows its citizens to question and criticize god?

 

[Vapnope]

Do u realise scientific revolution will lead to questioning of religion and God. There is one poster here, who wants extreme liberals should be punished. So Islam allows its citizens to question and criticize god?

If there was such a thing that Islam will not allow its followers to enter in scientific revolutions there would have been no muslim scientist hundreds of years ago. There are many sayings from Prophet Muhammad PBUH encouraging muslims to seek knowledge whenever possible wherever possible.

No matter how many qadyanis are here! they are same as TTP and other terrorists. Qadyanis attacked Muslim students of Nishtar Medical College Multan in 1974 when their train stopped in Rabwah. Many were injured from where this movement started and their true face was uncovered.

Lemme see the proofs of what you are claiming, no of casualties etc. And since you are convinced that they are equal to TTP lets name 10 convicted terrorists from Ahamadis. And lets see how many sunni or shias were killed!!

Pakistan is a secular country.

and buffaloes fly, pigs lay eggs and Sun rises from west

 

[pak-marine]

If you are not then I sincerely apologise for attributing you to the deviants.

Thank you but no apology required i am not offended at all i think Ahmedis are equally good muslims and pakistanis than any one else and they do not require any ones certification. Also i will rather have them as friends neighbours and family rather than those idiot jihadi , islamist goons who are blinded by their hate towards others.

 

[CIS-TRANS]

Bhai jaan don't make silly statements and insulting our beloved Ulima-ikram. Yes, we want peaceful transfer of power to the Ulima Ikram. I pray for that day for the people to be more knowledgeable of their faith.

Again, let me reiterate as it seems people here are wearing blinkers; we want PEACEFUL transfer of power and remain patient until Allah gives the keys of power to the Ulima Ikram.

Tell me who can achieve PEACE with Hindustan? Tell me who can solve the IOK and Siachen problem? Only the Ulima Ikram can do this. The secularists and fanatical liberals have ruined the country for 70 years and there is a lot of mess that needs cleaning up. People are poor, no law and order, Pakistan's image ruined (called, Pakistanis would sell their mother for a $1000 and now for a dinner), no education for the poor, no electricity, wide-spread and open corruption.

Secularists have done a lot of damage to the land of the pure and filled their own pockets. Strange they go into gormant poor and come out rich.

You are one among those types who says
who created Pakistan? Ulema karam
who made us nuclear power? Ulema karam
who are the extremely genius species of the world? Ulema karam
who made discoveries to make human life easier? Ulema karam
why we don't need Abdus salam? due to Ulema karam
How can we end power shortages in Pakistan? by creating a Madrassah on Indus river

and these senseless claims goes on and so on but results you produce are ZERO..
You think your Mullahs are not involved in corruption? Mullahs are not the cause of division in our society?
What Pakistan need to do is to lock Mullah inside their seminaries if they want a progressive and least violent future.