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Religion vs. Reason

People do EVIL because they do not have FEAR of Allah Almighty in their hearts; these kind of people are the biggest source of corruption in any society. But Hoodboy types do not get this.
looks like 95% Pakistanis are non believers and do not have fear of allah

mistake to assume that humans know everything now coz science.
a school kid know much more about the earth and universe than previous generations of humans ever existed thanks to Science
 
1. have you other read this Book or only heard about it? Or are you an Islam expert like cliffy?
2. the Prophet (PBUH) Said bind Your camel and Trust in Allah. This is the Muslim way and not believing in magic.
I do not have to read it. I can see what is written there by reading what superstitious guys preach all the time in all the Muslim societies. In any case, any single book is not all science. Muslims need to appreciate and learn the vast amount of knowledge that causes a society to uplift itself from the position of superstitious and pre-determined believes.
 
Science is not infallible by the way; it is not divine.
let me ask you a question about divine vs science
how many years it took for quran to complete?
i googled it and answer was 23 years
now thanks to Science and Mathematics you can send a same book to anyone on the internet other located on other corner of the world in few seconds almost at the speed of light
and when you think about it is amazing and wonderful
 
Not entirely money-less but all basic needs ( housing, water, basic food, essential clothes, electricity, healthcare, communication, mass-public transport, legal service which will be rare anyway in such a system, etc ) being for free and the remaining things ( non-basic food, clothing accessories, hair styling, gym membership, transportation by taxi, the visit to the restaurant or tea-house, permission for house party, etc ) being a paid-for thing via an evolved money system like the "Social Credits" system being implemented in China.

Let's assume that the Social Credits for each person will be 20 at the start of every month. He will be able to obtain a few services with these Credits. He will need to do his designated regular job and any possible extra community service to increase the credits by say 5. Not doing certain things will decrease his Credits. Doing an anti-social thing will get him punished by jail or non-Credit community service depending on the severity. The Credits do not add to the next month's Credits and make the person a "richer" man. They start fresh from 20.

This way there is no economic disparity, all get the basic necessities without suffering and anybody say with a penchant for stylish lifestyle and personal grooming will have to contribute harder to the community.
A basic level of free services are something I can get behind.
Anything more, will promote laziness, anti intellectualism in the masses.
Further, a high performer should have a higher reward/motivation.

I can understand your point of view. You think that having satisfied, trouble free existence for everyone should be our major goal.
But this is short term thinking.

For human society to advance, and persevere into eternity, we need science and research. Space travel. Ability to survive and set up colonies on other planets. Nuclear fusion for energy.
Feeding every starving guy out there, while noble, is inferior to this goal. But that's just my opinion.
 
a school kid know much more about the earth and universe than previous generations of humans ever existed thanks to Science
it is a good thing and great strength of science to constantly correct itself
let me ask you a question about divine vs science
how many years it took for quran to complete?
i googled it and answer was 23 years
now thanks to Science and Mathematics you can send a same book to anyone on the internet other located on other corner of the world in few seconds almost at the speed of light
and when you think about it is amazing and wonderful
The problem occurs when self anointed reformists like yourself lecture people that we have to choose from either science or religion whereas in reality a person can learn science and be a practicing Muslim at the same time.

There are plenty of practicing Muslims who are doctors, engineers, physicists, biologists, astronomers and academics.

Quran is a book of revelation, law and moral guidance. It did not come to compete with science or substitute science. You make it look otherwise. And had you read Quran or seerah you wouldn't have made such dumb statements.

@LeGenD @Iltutmish @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan
 
yeah yeah asking questions is a dumb thing in a muslim society
See, I have nothing against woke people and their deep desire to become Semi whites. No problem with that but this aggressive language against everything Islamic will not be tolerated.

If your parents didn’t teach you critical thinking this is just your personal problem.

People like you never touched a Quran, the only opinion you have about religion comes from western islamophobes. And please don’t think that the practice of Islam in your neighborhood or family is somehow representing the religion of Islam. But communists don’t have a sense for critical thinking or fairness.

The Quran urges us to ask questions all the time, but for that you must have read it at the first place. I know not going to happen.
 
aggressive language against everything Islamic will not be tolerated.
what aggressive language? You are the one who is threatening me with violence.
And one thing to keep in mind nothing is beyond questioning not your gods and not your religion
 
by Khaled Ahmed June 22, 2020
pervez-hoodhboy-fcc.jpg

File photo of Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy. Attila Kisbenedek—AFP

Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy’s dismissal from Lahore’s FCC University is a win for irrationality
Professor Dr. Pervez Amirali Hoodbhoy, currently teaching physics and math at Lahore’s Forman Christian College University, has been informed that his contract will not be renewed in 2021. The same week, Punjab Governor Chaudhry Mohammad Sarwar announced that all universities of the province would be required to teach the holy Quran as a compulsory subject, with students allowed to graduate only after the course has been completed.

Hoodbhoy, born in 1950, is a Ph.D. in nuclear physics; he objects to acts of state and society against reason. His book Islam and Science: Religious Orthodoxy and the Battle for Rationality explains the source of his trouble with the ideological state of Pakistan. It is not that he hates religion; he objects to acts of irrationality in the name of religion. The two scientists he most admires, Ramanujan and Abdus Salam, were deeply religious.

He protested, however, when Punjab Governor Salmaan Taseer’s own police guard murdered the politician after Taseer defended a Christian woman accused of insulting Islam’s Prophet under Pakistan’s draconian anti-blasphemy law. Having lived under General Ziaul Haq’s Islamic martial law, he was put off by a 1987 conference on “scientific miracles” in which Muslim scientists mixed religious miracle with scientific discovery. Pakistani scientists, encouraged by a funding of Rs. 6,600,000 (half provided by Saudi Arabia), flew off the handle and talked rubbish about science and demeaned the divine writ of the Quran.

Pakistan’s chief scientist, Salim Mehmud, tried to give himself a leg-up by making a hash of the theory of relativity after linking it with the “mairaj” (ascension) of Islam’s Prophet. Another scientist, lucratively employed at The Holy Quran Research Foundation, proposed that taming “jinns could solve the country’s energy-related problems” as the creatures are made of fire. Many others, lured by the limelight, delivered of themselves gems of medieval gibberish in the name of Islamic science.

Hoodbhoy has examined the roots of these ridiculous attitudes among Muslim scientists and come up with a well-researched book about the maltreatment of the scientific principle in Muslim societies. He asked Nobel Prize laureate Abdus Salam to write its preface because the professor had already made a plaintive appeal to the Muslim world to spend money on scientific advancement instead of “conquering” science through dogma.

Hoodbhoy tells us that scientific facts are contingent on reality. They are empirically proven but subject to change upon further discovery. In his view, it is wrong to link the eternal truth of Islam to this evolving understanding of natural phenomena. Science relies on observation and logic whose predictability is not destroyed by the new understanding of quantum physics. For a believer, it is important to separate divine knowledge from empirical fact, but this separation should not impinge on the ferocious Islamic polemic against secularism.

Science in Islam was destroyed because it was never applied enough to involve the common man. Kings often employed scientists, but they were at times killed after the death of their patron. Al-Kindi was lashed 50 times in front of an illiterate approving crowd; Al-Razi was hit on the head with his own book on rationalism till he lost his eyesight; Ibn Sina’s entire life was spent running away from one prince after the other for fear of being killed for heresy; Ibn Khaldun, the great social scientist discovered by the West, was condemned by Taha Hussain as a non-believer pretending to be a Muslim.

In his book, Hoodbhoy quotes Syed Ameer Ali on Islamic thinkers who thought the scientific method anti-Islamic: Al-Ashari, Ibn Hanbal, Al-Ghazali and Ibn Taymiyya. He examines the case made by leading Asharite Imam Ghazali against the study of logic and mathematics and thinks that this was to become the greatest intellectual hurdle against the learning of science. He criticizes contemporary Islamic scholar Hussein Nasr for blaming the sciences for the misdirection of the Muslim mind. His critique of Ziauddin Sardar for introducing the polemic of secularism into the sciences is balanced and fair.

Hoodbhoy steps beyond the pale of anti-scientism in today’s new intellectual trend when he gives statistics about the poverty of science learning in the Muslim world. The gap between India and Pakistan is significant because it goes beyond the argument of population ratios. One has to helplessly concede that where Muslims control societies, the one branch of knowledge that becomes neglected is the sciences. Prof Salam’s advocacy of the pure sciences becomes meaningful when one realizes that professional disciplines far outstrip the disciplines that teach science.

Hoodbhoy is not the only dissenting voice to have been dismissed from the echelons of academia in recent weeks. Author Mohammad Hanif posted on Twitter that he, too, had been let go from Karachi’s Habib University. Similarly, Prof. Ammar Ali Jan, also affiliated with FCCU, has also claimed on the social network that he had been released as visiting faculty over his public activism that was making the varsity “controversial.”

Pervez Hoodbhoy’s book has diagnosed what is happening to the Muslim mind toward the end of the 20th century. This mind is not only producing strange reactions to the sciences in general; it is also trying to tackle the question of governance without separating the state from religious belief. The new coercive order spreading over Muslim society is not political but intellectual. The tragic fact however is that this experiment is too late in the day and quite redundant in the light of what the institution of the state has gone through in Islam’s own history and in other civilizations.


https://www.newsweekpakistan.com/re...e1tYzhIgYUArmmEWkYgi6rOSEqjZfFa-24lJKUadfoNEU
He is not authority to speak on religion he is physicist and what is his contribution in Physics he is extremist and on agenda some mafias are behind him and keep him live in media he failed to under stand the difference between Islam and Muslims What Islam wants and what Muslims .He failed to understand Islam and always criticism Islam and his followers think his guidance better than ALLAH,S GUIDANCE.It is their choice .
 
Reason was the reason why there was need for Divine guidance. Humans were given the means to survive and prosper but weren't sent into an already developed system. We humans were given the choice to whatever we wished or wish to make of those means. The need for divine guidance was always there given the nature of humans, it was to protect the good side, nourish it and encourage equality, freedom and justice. The final guidance is an invitation to a thinking human brain, to question, ponder and discover. The crux of divine guidance remains "be just and strengthen justice, look for rights of helpless, poor and promote equality", a human mind can only think, understand and prosper when its free of all the worries ..... Muslims should have been the torch bearers but unfortunately we fell prey to all that we were warned against, especially the clergy. Our state reflects of what we made of divine guidance, if we start understanding it properly heavens and prosperity are promised, if we start selling it ..... whatever conditions we are living were promised for this.

So, why mix it with politics, why government need to regulate it? Let the individual follow its guidance by himself.

The very basic requirement for implementing Quranic principles is establishing a state first. And state is run by governance system.
 
More like force.

Na, forceful is what clergy does and clergy isn't necessarily Islam.

It depends on what we understand of Quranic principles, if you are stuck with rituals, superstitions etc. you will be left with what Muslims are today.

By putting a little thought and effort one can clearly understand no governance system will be successful unless it is for betterment and protection of people and their rights ....... and all that is what Quran asks of an Islamic state. We can see even the non Muslim states prospered by following these simple principles.
 
More like force.
Yeah! Only Good woke States with man made laws allowing gay abortions are allowed to force their code on other people! See, we can play the game all day long. Discussing religion with atheists is like discussing color with the blind.

Having a State itself is a forceful act, the one is against woke people the other one gives you free abortions. That’s the nature of a state.
 

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