Reject terrorism and fight TTP (Video)

[FaujHistorian]

You guys totally over-estimate the whole Indian role in the mess on your western frontiers.
)

Never would I say that. My posts are the evidence.

....
Oh okay. Why I asked was in India the maoists who are a fringe left militants have tie-ups with the NE militants who are combination of ethnicity and christian militancy. They combined because of the need to face up to the common enemy - India. In the case of Baloch rebels and TTP the common enemy is the state of Pakistan. hence my question.
)

Wish you had given this context in your post. sorry I doubted your good nature and honest intentions.

.....
But fair enough, I get the cue - you have your sarkari history and we allegedly have ours. Who shouts higher gets to form the narrative and we can shout louder than pakistan.

Thank you.

This is what I remind my fellow Pakistanis and I say the same to Indians.

Never forget Karma. History of our regions is littered with the lessons based on Karma, and yet we continue to ignore it over and over and over.

It should never be our intention to shout louder than the other.

Instead it should always be to "be more just" than the other other And Karma will reward such actions.

peace

p.s. I hope you don't confused with my reference to Karma. My religion teaches the same concept. I also believe all religions come from the same wellspring of justice, honesty, and truth. It is us the mortals who abuse and misuse the religion and use it over and over to justify our narrow political objectives.

 

[KS]

This is what I remind my fellow Pakistanis and I say the same to Indians.

Never forget Karma. History of our regions is littered with the lessons based on Karma, and yet we continue to ignore it over and over and over.

Since you mentioned Karma I am bound to reply to this -

Karma does not mean everything you do onto others will be done onto you sometime or other, karma only catches up with you in a wrong way in case you are indulged in adharma. Not when you are indulged in himsa in the pursuit of your dharma or your lawful duties.

Arjuna killing unarmed Bhisma or Dhristayumna killing a distracted Drona can be considered unjust if taken in isolation..but from the bigger picture they were only discharging their duty of waging war against their enemies which was their dharma. (references from Mahabharatha).

 

[Black Widow]

you created mess for India, Afghanistan and world, Now you are facing the same treatement.


You are the creator of terrorism, you know how to end it..

 

[FaujHistorian]

Since you mentioned Karma I am bound to reply to this -

Karma does not mean everything you do onto others will be done onto you sometime or other, karma only catches up with you in a wrong way in case you are indulged in adharma. Not when you are indulged in himsa in the pursuit of your dharma or your lawful duties.

Arjuna killing unarmed Bhisma or Dhristayumna killing a distracted Drona can be considered unjust if taken in isolation..but from the bigger picture they were only discharging their duty of waging war against their enemies which was their dharma. (references from Mahabharatha).

My dear poster,

you have spoken like an Ayatullah or a Saudi Mullah.

they too come up with explanations to justify their rapes, killings, and maimings in the name of religion.


What a coincidence!

 

[Patriots]

@Irfan Baloch

How much ever you try to couch it in words - the bare truth is Kashmir is a religious supremacist struggle. Much the same as the TTP. Only in Kashmiri case it is Muslims vs Kaffir, in TTP case its better muslim vs less better muslim.

Freedom movement of Kashmir is constantly continued since 1948. I wonder why you people are insisting to linking up TTP & freedom fighters of Kashmir each. They are tolerating Indian injustice for 65 years. If referendum would have been held by earlier according to UNO declarations then peace could had been in this region.

 

[KS]

Freedom movement of Kashmir is constantly continued since 1948. I wonder why you people are insisting to linking up TTP & freedom fighters of Kashmir each. They are tolerating Indian injustice for 65 years. If referendum would have been held by earlier according to UNO declarations then peace could had been in this region.

Educated yourself on the pre-conditions necesary for the referendum to take place and see whether Pak has fulfilled those

Understand that Jinnah himself rejected a mountbatten offered referendum in all three areas - junagadh, hyderabad and kashmir on the grounds that he will not agree to a referendum in hyderabad.

My dear poster,

you have spoken like an Ayatullah or a Saudi Mullah.

they too come up with explanations to justify their rapes, killings, and maimings in the name of religion.


What a coincidence!

hehe no. I was just explaining what the concept of karma is to the depth of my knowledge of my religion.

I dont want people disabusing it or taking it in a very simplistic manner.

 

[OrionHunter]

I do not agree with point 5 and as I said the correctness of the other points should not be used to draw a good or bad Taliban line. 80% of the killings by Afghan taliban are afghan civilians so this is all pretty callous of us. We can't support terror in one country and when it happens in ours cry foul that they are not real taliban. Treat terrorists as terrorists. Don't sympathize with them because thats what they use to get power.

Also point 4 is well-noted and I have said the same thing over and over. It was right for the US to shake hands with Haqqani then and call Taliban ideological forefathers of Afghanistan but now they drop bombs on the same people and accuse us of siding with them when they once did themselves pumping 4 billion dollars into their mouths.

The sources of terrorism in Pakistan are usually linked to the policy of Islamisation of the country by General Zia-ul-Haq. An important element of the then emerging terrorist activity was Pakistan’s direct involvement in military actions in Afghanistan and the actual creation of the mujahideen units, who after the end of the military actions rose to prominence as a military and political force first in Afghanistan and then in Pakistan.

In addition, the Pakistan Army/ISI have nurtured terrorist groups like the LeT, JeM etc consisting mainly of Pakistani citizens to fight their proxy war in Kashmir since the late 1980s and continue to this day. The Pakistani Army has classified terrorists as ‘good’ (Haqqani, LeT, JeM etc) and ‘bad’ (TTP). Gen Kayani had disclosed to his American counterpart that these groups are his ‘strategic assets’! The Army therefore instead of controlling the situation is perpetrating a flawed policy which has now come to haunt it. You cant be running with the hare and hunting with the hounds as the PA is doing right now.

At the moment Pakistan has a lot of active terrorist organisations, classified by experts into five main groups:

1) Sectarian (Islamist) units, which are in conflict with other groups (Sipah-e-Sahaba, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, and Tehreek-e-Jaferia);

2) Anti-Indian groups (Lashkar-e-Toiba, Jaish-e-Mohammad, and Harkat-ul Mujahideen, with the Pakistani part of Kashmir as an important ground for them);

3) Afghanistan’s Taliban, which is led by Mullah Mohammed Omar and headquartered in Quetta;

4) Al-Qaeda and affiliated structures, located in the tribal areas in peripheral regions of Pakistan, with terrorist “subsidiaries” in Uzbekistan, Libya, and the Sunan Yugur Autonomous Region in China;

5) Pakistan’s Taliban (TTP) led by Hakimullah Mehsud in Southern Waziristan. Their aim is to control the area of the Mehsud tribe and similar units. They have also threatened the takeover of Pakistan eventually and impose the Sharia.

This is an explosive mix in a country that is devoid of good governance, the increasingly chaotic political life, the army’s involvement in domestic processes, the poorly regulated government economy and the inability of political parties to set up adequate political life for more than five years. This “institutional vacuum” is inevitably being filled up by other organizations and terrorist structures.

So, what’s the way forward? In these conditions, Pakistan’s governing circles have no alternative but their own Kemal-style revolution, i.e. changes reproducing the Turkish development path of the 1920s and the 1930s, adjusted for the international and domestic context. If the Pakistani leaders fail to implement the “Kemal project”, the country will be overwhelmed with a new wave of terrorism.

And it’s better late than never!

 

[Patriots]

One is leftist ethnic organization

And the other touts global Islamo-fascism.

Both have different aims, different funders, and different setup.



peace

Funders are different but goals are same.

 

[Patriots]

Educated yourself on the pre-conditions necesary for the referendum to take place and see whether Pak has fulfilled those

Understand that Jinnah himself rejected a mountbatten offered referendum in all three areas - junagadh, hyderabad and kashmir on the grounds that he will not agree to a referendum in hyderabad.

Dear get habitual to read properly. I said according to UNO declaration. This declaration was not passed in Quaid's time.

 

[Patriots]

you created mess for India, Afghanistan and world, Now you are facing the same treatement.


You are the creator of terrorism, you know how to end it..

Kindly guide me whats the Indian role to backing terrorism in Pakistan.....???????????????????

 

[haviZsultan]

The sources of terrorism in Pakistan are usually linked to the policy of Islamisation of the country by General Zia-ul-Haq.

It was a massive error for which we are paying today.

An important element of the then emerging terrorist activity was Pakistan’s direct involvement in military actions in Afghanistan and the actual creation of the mujahideen units, who after the end of the military actions rose to prominence as a military and political force first in Afghanistan and then in Pakistan.

Indeed. But US and Saudi played a huge role. Without their funding nothing could have happened. They should not escape blame for this. I hate it when it happens.

In addition, the Pakistan Army/ISI have nurtured terrorist groups like the LeT, JeM etc consisting mainly of Pakistani citizens to fight their proxy war in Kashmir since the late 1980s and continue to this day. The Pakistani Army has classified terrorists as ‘good’ (Haqqani, LeT, JeM etc) and ‘bad’ (TTP). Gen Kayani had disclosed to his American counterpart that these groups are his ‘strategic assets’! The Army therefore instead of controlling the situation is perpetrating a flawed policy which has now come to haunt it. You cant be running with the hare and hunting with the hounds as the PA is doing right now.

The distinction should be made in order to make the war easier and differentiate between groups so that we can fight those attacking us... not to sympathize with JeM, LeT or Haqqani. Our initial focus should be on those groups attacking Pakistan. It is about priorities. A nation will naturally seek to eliminate those that are attacking it before anything. I do not believe Pakistan has funded these. They are part of natural uprisings in Kashmir against Indian atrocities and mistakes. Violence has died down because troops have been withdrawn and massacres take place less often.

At the moment Pakistan has a lot of active terrorist organisations, classified by experts into five main groups:

Currently the entire world is shouting foul at Pakistan. Indians have always been at the forefront and are no exception here. Your concerns are noted but Pakistan has still been fighting these terrorist groups despite massive losses. Even India knows that the mullah is something you do not annoy unless absolutely necessary. Example is RSS. Gandhi's killers still operate. So basically we are fighting them and suffered 40,000 casualties, 79% of all violence related deaths in 2010 and 2011 just as terrorism in India is dying down greatly.

The sad part is the sacrifice may never be appreciated or even purposely be glossed over by our Indian neighbors.

1) Sectarian (Islamist) units, which are in conflict with other groups (Sipah-e-Sahaba, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, and Tehreek-e-Jaferia);

I will label these threats according to their importance. 2) Because TTP is the first threat. Tehreek e Jafria is not a terrorist group. It is Sipah e mohammed which is the Shia militant wing but even it never attacks civilians.

2) Anti-Indian groups (Lashkar-e-Toiba, Jaish-e-Mohammad, and Harkat-ul Mujahideen, with the Pakistani part of Kashmir as an important ground for them);

Least importance. (4) Now if you want them to be important, stop demonizing Pakistan and help it destroy the TTP. I will explain this next.

3) Afghanistan’s Taliban, which is led by Mullah Mohammed Omar and headquartered in Quetta;

Least importance yet again (4)... equal to the other groups. TTP is the main threat currently. We beat them then we can fight other groups. Currently we can't protect ourselves from bombings from TTP. 40,000+ of our losses were suffered at the hands of the TTP-tell me who should we focus on? And you know we have had no success against TTP. Its asking for too much. These terrorists get Pakistan they will come for India.

By demonizing the said country you make them stronger continually which feeds the counter-narrative that India is supporting Taliban. A militant Indian of yours even celebrated, gloated over this in a letter at our office in Canada.

4) Al-Qaeda and affiliated structures, located in the tribal areas in peripheral regions of Pakistan, with terrorist “subsidiaries” in Uzbekistan, Libya, and the Sunan Yugur Autonomous Region in China;

They have nothing to do with Pakistan if they are outside Pakistan.

5) Pakistan’s Taliban (TTP) led by Hakimullah Mehsud in Southern Waziristan. Their aim is to control the area of the Mehsud tribe and similar units. They have also threatened the takeover of Pakistan eventually and impose the Sharia.

Primary threat currently. Eliminating them can be the precursor to us moving against LET and other groups. But we have our own issues to deal with first. That is why whatever those 4 embassies are doing must stop but Indian policy is to bleed Pakistan through vicious media slander and war-mongering, threats and constant disparaging comments. It is the Indian narrative we see even in Pakistan today-not the Pakistani narrative.

This is an explosive mix in a country that is devoid of good governance, the increasingly chaotic political life, the army’s involvement in domestic processes, the poorly regulated government economy and the inability of political parties to set up adequate political life for more than five years. This “institutional vacuum” is inevitably being filled up by other organizations and terrorist structures.

I agree with you on this. This is the case in FATA. There was a vacuum and the militants used that vacuum to establish their own positions. I do not agree however that the vacuum exists in other areas as strongly.

So, what’s the way forward? In these conditions, Pakistan’s governing circles have no alternative but their own Kemal-style revolution, i.e. changes reproducing the Turkish development path of the 1920s and the 1930s, adjusted for the international and domestic context. If the Pakistani leaders fail to implement the “Kemal project”, the country will be overwhelmed with a new wave of terrorism.

Such a revolution can come through:
1) a massive victory in military field
2) Economic growth
3) Imposition of such a thing by a military dictator who rules for many years-even then it may fail.

Till then despite being a secularist who idolizes Ataturk I know my people... they will not accept so massive a change. Especially it will take illiterate minds (poorer populace) time to understand it may be the only solution to the current crisis. Our education system, everything favors militants.

And it’s better late than never!

True.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The only thing I can see different between TTP and militants in Kashmir is that the militants from (Pak) Punjab and Kashmir are chicken to blow themselves up and put up a relatively less fight while the Pathans have no problem with it and putting up a heavy resistance.

an ill thought, hypocrite and racist comment
it were the Punjabi/ nonPashton Taliban who put the most resistance during the fall of Kabul when the NATO attacked. its mostly Punjabi taliban attacking the airbases as well.

their brutality is never less than that of the pasthons and its good that you see the difference between Kashmiri militants and the Taliban although you, compelled by your bigotry spin it negatively.

in recent times it is the Punjabi taliban or Lashker Jhangvi who originated from Punjab who have taken the central stage in their fight with the state of Pakistan and they have never shied away from the chance to blow themselves up or launch an audacious attack when the opportunity presented itself to them.

hey I will end this debate with you here because you already confirmed my prediction although you grudgingly agreed to few of my points but then you baited others into a flame war by your choice of words which is regrettable,

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Irfan Baloch

on a unrelated note why is that the Baloch insurgency so weak and flailing while the TTP are much more sucessful in spite of the full force of Pakistan army against them?

I means both have a weapon carrying and fighting at the drop of a hat tradition
I believe the baloch too have access to good quantities of weapons and ammo
The border with afghanistan in balochistan too is porous (if they need sanctuary)
the terrain too I believe is more or less same with rugged mountains.

Or is that there is a media blackout in balochistan and we actually dont know what is going on there while the TTP are more media savvy and are too good in PR dept as compared to the baloch rebels ?

Or is the Islamic cause of TTP much more appealing to the tribesmen than the somewhat non-religious ethnic cause of baloch ?

Or it all boils down to the quality of the fighters and leadership ?

Or the ultimate - funding ?

valid points
some questions are answered by yourself as well

remember that resources are always limited

question of funding/ weapons etc
so if TTP is doing a better job then they get the major portion of the foreign funding if both BLA and TTP have same sponsors
back in the days of Afghan Jihad, whichever group showed promise did better against the Soviets got more funding more training and more weapons and hence some Afghan commanders made more name than others.

Question about Meida blackout
Balochistan is no more dangerous than tribal areas which are constantly under drone strikes from the sky and perpetua fighting on the ground between TTP and Pakistan army. the media finds its way there, interviews the TTP leadership and comes back. so there is no blackout there. same is in Balochistan. we got our Sardars giving interviews to foreign press and international media from West and middle east like CNN, BBC and Al Jazera goes around talking to militants.

what is driving the militancy religion vs nationalism
its all speculation. I would tend to say yes to your points but its a very simplified explanation. TTP gets more attention because its target is entire Pakistan, BLA is specifically Balochistan centric, xenophobe and limited to marris of Lasbela & one Bughti tribe of Dera Bughti. TTP source pool is entire Pakistan where it finds like minded people of similar Deobandi faith and they want to turn Pakistan into an extremist Sunni Utopia.


if you face a Baloch then you will never ever, never ever second guess him. trust me !!! the only issue is that we dont breed like rats (sorry no pun intended) but our resolve is sometimes equated to the revenge of an elephant and animosity of a camel both animals are notorious in keeping the grudge forever until they are put down.

a Marri will stalk you in a desert for weeks to take you out. he will fight you with every weapon at his disposal and fight you with his fists in the end and you have to put him down if you want to live. you question the quality of leadership and thats where the issue is
the Baloch Sardars are basically extremely territorial, jealously and totalitarians by nature they sold mines and people to British raj for as mush as 500 GBP when it suited them. and then picked up arms in the name of nationalism when the bribes to keep them cozy and jolly were not enough.
they are great survivors and know when to take the carrot when the stick might hurt a little, in the end its their clan people who are left high and dry (and cold) who take the brunt, while the Sardar goes into hiding (all expenses paid).
the other issue is this insurgency is actually kept alive by under 3000 active militants supported by less than 10% Baloch population. (10% of total Baloch population).

read more if you like I will edit my post and link my article about it

 

[K-Xeroid]

@Irfan Baloch
Any Neutral person would not marginalized terrorism with only Deobands , As far as I know about Deobands , They always preach peace among followers and top of all militancey and exterimism is part of every sectarian group . Even Barelvi movement founder , Ahmad Raza Khan, and other Barelvi religious figures have issued fatwas of apostasy against the founders of the Deobandi, Shia Islam and the Ahmadiyya Community. Similarily Shia organistaion i.e Tehreek nifaz e jafferia , Tehreek e jafferia and Sipah Mohammad Pakistan are the militant organisation of Shia sect , and Its not a hidden truth that all of them have targeted common citizens of Pakistan even those who were not affiliated with any group were also been Targeted and killed .
I've no idea what stoping you from sharing rational and uncontroversial analysis , But terrorism was never started by Deobands and niether a way of Deoband and thats the part where most of us are clear .
Second Balochistan is also expanded inside Iran and most of Sunni Islamist militant Groups are also fighting their, Now don't say they are also Deobands because , Iranis just execute those who oppose their ideology and the culture of religious monarchy also came from iranian revelution . Even today we are dealing the outcome whole persian literature that have been exported in Pakistan .
In My opinion Sipah Sahaba Pakistan is a defending organisation against tehreek e jafferria as history itself proves the actual motives of behind the creation of that organistaion.

Tehrik-e-Jafaria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Tehrik-e-Jafaria, Pakistan (TJP) (Urdu: تحریکِ جعفریہ‎, lit. Shia Movement ) also called Tehrik-e-Islami is a Shia political party in Pakistan. It was formed in 1979 with the name Tehrik-e-Nafaz-e-Fiqah-e-Jafaria (تحریکِ نفاذِ فقہ جعفریہ, lit. Shia-law implementation movement) as result of enforcement of controversial Islamic laws and politicization and discrimination against Shias in Pakistan Army and Civil Service.

Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan (SSP) is a Sunni Deobandi Pakistani organization, and a formerly registered Pakistani political party. Established in the early 1980s in Jhang by Maulana Haq Nawaz Jhangvi, its stated goal is to primarily to deter major Shiite influence in Pakistan in the wake of the Iranian Revolution

Sorry , Foji Bhai .... But you are again misleading us .

 

[Irfan Baloch]

K-Xeroid
thanks for your post.. its good that you made an effort to show that all faiths of Islam are equally brutal and culprits.

unfortunately the comparions will be made when Afghan taliban, Sipah Sahabah and TTP are all found to be following Deoband school of thought which is very closest to Salafi or wahabi school of jurisprudence and is an ultra orthadox and extreme version of Sunni faith of Islam (forgive me for the lack of term)

whats more is that when Molana Fazl Rehman's JUI (a deobandi school of Islam organisation) is also found to be justifying the actions of Taliban then its really hard to defend and convince people that people of Deobandi Islam are all peace loving , tree planting love spreading charity giving people.

forget about Persian / Saudi proxy war in Pakistan during the 80s to 90s, we have gone beyond that now.

I dont care how Iran deals with the people who challenge its state
I also dont care (actually admire) how Saudis deal with the people who challenge the kingdom. their response is so absolute and so powerful that these cowards come to our country because we are easy to fool in the name of Islam.

TTP doesnt accept our way of life, simple, it wants entire Pakistan to turn into Sawat's Khuni chowk or Kabul football stadium where the executions were regular and done as a part of religion.

I dont care where an enemy of state of Pakistan is joining his hands while praying (above on chest or on the belly or open hands) whether he is Muslim with a mark on forehead due to hours of praying. if he is danger to the state then I want my army to neutralise him with full resolve just the way Hazrat Abu Bakr R.A did when people thought they could cease the chance and cause chaos when muslims were grieving the death of the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

your explanation and defence of Deobani faith is heartening its an uphill taks for all of us when we try to tell nonMuslims that what TTP, Lashker Jhangvi, Sipah Sahabah, Al qaeda etc do is not Islam and is rejected by Muslim majority but then you get a far more powerful and shocking videos by these so called Mullahs who record executions and recite Quranic verses then the viewer is left shell shocked.

be fair and tell me, would anyone spend time reading the peaceful Deoband philosophy in particular or Islam in general or actually just see a few minutes of very graphic footage of people being executed and blown up with along with Quranic verses and Taqbeers?

in the end please dont feel victimised if your faith is being scrutinised because I never felt that I had to explain to people that I dont belive in such brutal Islam.
and its a very weak defence to point out the sins of other faiths or religions instead of condemning people outright who have committed the atrocity. its not a sectarian debate about which sect is worse than the other it just happens that Taliban and its allies all follow the same faith which has similarities with Al Qaeda and the Kharjites during the time of Hazrat Ali r.a Caliphate.

these terrorists they have spilled the blood of the innocent like water and our army should deal with them like pests and shouldnt stop to check their faith or religion before opening fire because they have never discriminated while killing our fellow citizens