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Refugees trapped in AJK banging at India's door

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News Update

Neelesh Misra, Hindustan Times
Email Author
New Delhi, October 22, 2007
First Published: 01:45 IST(22/10/2007)
Last Updated: 02:00 IST(22/10/2007)
Refugees trapped in P*O*K banging at India's door

Amid Pakistan's turmoil, Kashmiri refugees are approaching Indian authorities in Islamabad for passage into India and there are fears that thousands of others might try to cross over forcibly across the Line of Control (LoC), according to the Home Ministry.

A confidential communiqué from the ministry, addressed among others to top security officials in Jammu and Kashmir, was sent a few days before the arrival of Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan and the bombings that nearly killed her. The ministry's note estimated the number of Kashmiri refugees in Azad Kashmir (***) at 15,000.

"While some of the refugees have already approached the Indian High Commission in Islamabad for their expatriation through the consular channel, (the) majority of them are likely to exploit the authorised crossing points on the LC (Line of Control) to cross over illegally," said the ministry joint secretary's note, seen by the Hindustan Times.

The ministry based the fears on "inputs from various intelligence agencies". If such an exodus was to happen, officials noted that it would have the makings of a security, diplomacy and public relations crisis — especially if soldiers open fire to prevent incursions.

Since 1989, when Islamic insurgency erupted in Kashmir, thousands of young men have left their homes — most without even telling their families. They crossed the LoC on foot, assisted by guides, and joined training camps of terrorist groups based there. Many returned to fight Indian security forces in Kashmir, others stayed back to do chores at terrorist camps or odd jobs in urban centres.

But with increasing Pakistani pressure on terrorist camps in *** and the current political churning in Pakistan, the men — many of whom now have Pakistani wives — are being seen as a liability, Indian officials say.

"Due to the prevailing situation in Pakistan, a significant section of Kashmiri diaspora living as refugees in Pakistan/*** are apprehensive of Pakistan/*** government plans to push them back to Jammu and Kashmir," the home ministry note said. It attributed this to the alleged restrictions on the refugees and their marginalisation, as well as the attraction of returning to J&K amid the easing situation.

Terrorists began surrendering in large numbers at the LoC last year. Once almost every two days, a Kashmiri rebel appeared at the frontier -- sometimes with a Pakistani wife and children -- and requested the Army for permission to return to the Indian side.

Almost 180 surrenders took place last year at different places along the LoC. At least 55 had surrendered by June. The large numbers were logged despite mountain passes being blocked by snow through the winter and early spring.

A June 2 story by the Hindustan Times was followed by a government ban on surrenders at the LoC. Still, requests have continued. Last week, a man approached officers of the J&K Police to say that 400 former terrorists wanted to surrender on the LoC. In keeping with the new policy, permission was denied.

Two laws apply to such surrenders. One is the Foreigners' Act, with tough bail provisions and sentences that could range up to five years. The other is the state's own law, the Egress and Ingress Movement Control Ordinance, dating back to the days of Kashmir's maharajahs. Its modern version requires anyone entering Kashmir from the Pakistani side to first take a permit.

The law was invoked in 1946 by the then ruler, Hari Singh, to arrest Jawaharlal Nehru, when he tried to enter the state to seek the freedom of Kashmiri leader Sheikh Abdullah.
HindustanTimes-Print
© Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times
 
Kashmir is most likely Pakistan's most stable province right now so either the publishers are exploiting facts as in, it could be people just trying to cross over to see their relatives in the other Kashmir or they made it up.

Other than that, Pakistan's side of Kashmir is more stable than Indian-held Kashmir considering India kills Kashmirs everyday.
 
The article doesn't really mention anything like Kashmiris rushing towards India.

Last week, a man approached officers of the J&K Police to say that 400 former terrorists wanted to surrender on the LoC
LOL why would some idiot want to do that? All of this smells of BS. The article does not justify the title, its all a bunch of things connected from here n there.

The ministry based the fears on "inputs from various intelligence agencies".
Awesome. Lame, very lame article. While reporting news either you mention what the sources are saying or you just shut it. You cannot add in things from your own unless its an op-ed.

While some of the refugees have already approached the Indian High Commission in Islamabad for their expatriation through the consular channel, (the) majority of them are likely to exploit the authorised crossing points on the LC (Line of Control) to cross over illegally,
This the ONLY quote they have and they made an entire story out of it.
 
The article doesn't really mention anything like Kashmiris rushing towards India

Was it supposed to? Which Kashmiris? Kindly elaborate.
Don't assume what the article should say before you read it.

Awesome. Lame, very lame article. While reporting news either you mention what the sources are saying or you just shut it. You cannot add in things from your own unless its an op-ed.

Its a paraphrased version of a Home Ministry statement. They don't have to quote every line to prove their point.

This the ONLY quote they have and they made an entire story out of it.

There's another one:

"Due to the prevailing situation in Pakistan, a significant section of Kashmiri diaspora living as refugees in Pakistan/*** are apprehensive of Pakistan/*** government plans to push them back to Jammu and Kashmir"
 
It doesn't mention its source and tries to sneak in "Various intelligence sources".

The term "Kashmiri refugees in Pakistan" is itself a testament of which side the Kashmiris are heading too. They are taking REFUGE in Pakistan from India.
 
It doesn't mention its source and tries to sneak in "Various intelligence sources".

Oh comeon, that is too convenient. I have seen much more suspect stuff passed off as gospel on this forum.

Articles from paper like "Countercurrents" and "Dalit Voice", which simply rant on without any source are given prime importance here.

Whatever you don't agree with is highly unreliable, and articles which confirm your POV are totally correct?

The article is about a directive issued by the Home Ministry, based on intelligence reports received, not by the agency, but by the ministry.

The term "Kashmiri refugees in Pakistan" is itself a testament of which side the Kashmiris are heading too. They are taking REFUGE in Pakistan from India.

So? Did the article somehow dispute that?

Its about the waning support for Anti-India activities in Pakistan, and that former terrorists who went over for training are now surrendering en-masse, since camps are being closed down, or not receiving the financial support that they used to.
 
if 1 kashmiri wants to go from pakistan and live in india than millions of kashmiris wants to live in pakistan as simple as that
 
if 1 kashmiri wants to go from pakistan and live in india than millions of kashmiris wants to live in pakistan as simple as that

Man, seriously, how hard is it to understand simple English.

This isn't about dissidents migrating across the border. Not about disgruntled Indians or Pakistanis migrating in search of a better life.

It is about terrorists losing support and returning since they have no other choice.

These people voluntarily migrated to Pakistan, in order to wage "jihad" against India in the 80s and 90s

They are for the first time unwanted in Pakistan. So they want to go home.
This is turning into a huge security issue since these jehad indoctrinated people are "surrendering" to the army in droves at the LOC, and then spreading their radicalism among the Kashmiris in India.

The army recently put a ban on surrenders because most of these guys just pretend to surrender, and then get involved with jehadis in India after they are granted their freedom.
 
Oh comeon, that is too convenient. I have seen much more suspect stuff passed off as gospel on this forum.

Articles from paper like "Countercurrents" and "Dalit Voice", which simply rant on without any source are given prime importance here.

And you have a right to counter those "sources" when they are brought up, but just stating that they "rant" does not discredit them.

Even so, such sources can still be placed higher than the "intelligence sources" mentioned in this article, especially when it comes to Kashmir and Pakistan.

In such situations, "intelligence sources"/reports are basically nothing but propoganda released by the Government. Find articles, sources from some reputed international organizations to make a case.

[quote[
Whatever you don't agree with is highly unreliable, and articles which confirm your POV are totally correct?

The article is about a directive issued by the Home Ministry, based on intelligence reports received, not by the agency, but by the ministry.
[/quote]

Again, please do not insult everyones intelligence by claiming that somehow we should look at GoI reports and intelligence sources as being "objective, unbiased and propaganda free".

This not about dismissing "what we don't agree with", but pointing out that the sources this entire article are ludicrous.
 
And you have a right to counter those "sources" when they are brought up, but just stating that they "rant" does not discredit them.

Even so, such sources can still be placed higher than the "intelligence sources" mentioned in this article, especially when it comes to Kashmir and Pakistan.

In such situations, "intelligence sources"/reports are basically nothing but propoganda released by the Government. Find articles, sources from some reputed international organizations to make a case.

Well, in that case no "intelligence" report is really verifiable is it?

I guess it depends on whos intelligence you believe!!

I for one will trust HT more than any Pakistani newspaper, and you will probably trust the Pakistani ones.



Again, please do not insult everyones intelligence by claiming that somehow we should look at GoI reports and intelligence sources as being "objective, unbiased and propaganda free".

This not about dismissing "what we don't agree with", but pointing out that the sources this entire article are ludicrous.

Fine....what can I do if you find the sources ridiculous.

Just a couple of weeks back I saw Reuters and AFP being dismissed as propaganda. Indian reports are always labeled propaganda. The only news reports that are given credibility here, it seems, are the Pakistani press.

Now I wonder how many people around the world think the Pakistan press is Independent?
 
Well, in that case no "intelligence" report is really verifiable is it?

I guess it depends on whos intelligence you believe!!

I for one will trust HT more than any Pakistani newspaper, and you will probably trust the Pakistani ones.

Its not about which newspaper to trust, its about how the newspaper got its story, what evidence and sources the reporter is basing his premises and conclusions upon, what is the veracity of those sources/evidence etc.

In this case, the entire article seems to be based upon "Indian Intelligence sources". Now I am not suggesting that Indian intel is never correct, but that when it comes to Pakistan, they cannot be considered an objective and unbiased source.

Similarly you would have every right to counter "intelligence sources" from pakistan that accuse India of being behind "terrorism in FATA and the BLA", though the lack of kneee jerk reactions from Pakistani intel, in terms of balming India, does give them more veracity when they do make the accusation - but this is a circumstantial argument.


Fine....what can I do if you find the sources ridiculous.

Just a couple of weeks back I saw Reuters and AFP being dismissed as propaganda. Indian reports are always labeled propaganda. The only news reports that are given credibility here, it seems, are the Pakistani press.

Now I wonder how many people around the world think the Pakistan press is Independent?

Why don't you explain to me how an "Indian Intelligence report" that badmouths Pakistan is going to be consisderd objective and unbiased?

I dont know which AFP report you are talking about, so I cannot comment on why it was "dismissed as propoganda". Provide a link and I'll try to respond on that thread - but whatever the case there, it does not take away from the criticizm, justified, of this article.
 
The fact that these people approached Indian authorities in PAKISTAN can be verified easily by the Pak media or the intelligence since the incident occurred in Pakistan itself.

Any articles in the Pak media to debunk this Indian media report?

Of course, it is a moot point that the Pak intelligence has more veracity when reporting on India!
 
Its not about which newspaper to trust, its about how the newspaper got its story, what evidence and sources the reporter is basing his premises and conclusions upon, what is the veracity of those sources/evidence etc.

In this case, the entire article seems to be based upon "Indian Intelligence sources". Now I am not suggesting that Indian intel is never correct, but that when it comes to Pakistan, they cannot be considered an objective and unbiased source.

Similarly you would have every right to counter "intelligence sources" from pakistan that accuse India of being behind "terrorism in FATA and the BLA", though the lack of kneee jerk reactions from Pakistani intel, in terms of balming India, does give them more veracity when they do make the accusation - but this is a circumstantial argument.

Well, firstly, the news report isn't blaming or accusing Pakistan at all. It is just quoting a memo allegedly sent by the Home Ministry to officials in J&K, regarding refugees returning from Pakistan.

The report then speaks about intelligence reports which were supplied to the J&K administration.

If this is propaganda, then there are precisely two options to choose from.
One, the said memo is a fabrication
Two, the Home Ministry is supplying propaganda to its own ministry.



Why don't you explain to me how an "Indian Intelligence report" that badmouths Pakistan is going to be consisderd objective and unbiased?

I dont know which AFP report you are talking about, so I cannot comment on why it was "dismissed as propoganda". Provide a link and I'll try to respond on that thread - but whatever the case there, it does not take away from the criticizm, justified, of this article.

It isn't badmouthing Pakistan at all. We all know that training camps exist in P*O*K. Musharraf himself admitted it and so did several Pakistani politicians and officials. CIA says so. RAW says so. Indian Army has built an electric fence over most of the area where it is possible to do so, in order to prevent the same threat. Kargil has happened. Thi s is an established fact.


The report is simply suggesting that the large number of surrenders by militants in recent months while crossing over the LOC (which btw is a fact), is the result of waning tolerance for them in Pakistani Kashmir.

So how is it badmouthing Pakistan? If anything, it claims that Pakistan is taking steps to stop the terrorism.
 
Refugees trapped in P*O*K banging at India's door

Amid Pakistan's turmoil, Kashmiri refugees are approaching Indian authorities in Islamabad for passage into India and there are fears that thousands of others might try to cross over forcibly across the Line of Control (LoC), according to the Home Ministry.

This attempts to paint a picture of Pakistan that is quite negative. It is also inaccurate since the "turmoil" has been primarily confined to FATA, not AK.
A confidential communiqué from the ministry,...
The ministry based the fears on "inputs from various intelligence agencies".

Obviously not "confidential" anymore, and any reason why such a "confidential" memo would be released to the press?

Sorry, but I'll have to wait for more unbiased and objective reports.

On the issue of refugees from IOK returning to their homes, by all means that should be facilitated, but is the situation on the ground, in terms of Indian Army oppression in IOK, really better, or is this just an attempt to make it look like it is?
 
This attempts to paint a picture of Pakistan that is quite negative. It is also inaccurate since the "turmoil" has been primarily confined to FATA, not AK.

It says "amid turmoil" in Pakistan. As in, "during this time of turmoil in Pakistan". It refers to a period of time, not a cause of events.

Are you saying that the war in FATA isn't affecting the rest of Pakistan? Of course it is.

The "turmoil" mentioned isn't refering to actual war, but to the current state of affairs in Pakistan.

Obviously not "confidential" anymore, and any reason why such a "confidential" memo would be released to the press, perhaps because it served to promote "propoganda"?

Sorry, but I'll have to wait for more unbiased and objective reports.

Well, there are press leaks all the time. Indian journalists are getting nosier by the day, which is great.

I suppose it could be propaganda, but I would have expected propaganda to be a lot less subtle than this.

Also, what purpose is being served by releasing such propaganda? It is definitely not bad-mouthing Pakistan, which should ideally be the motive of all propaganda.

I've seen much more ominous articles about Pakistan in the western media lately.

If anything, its warning that there could be human rights issues involved if such refugees are shot down by the army.

Another side is that these refugees could mingle with the locals and make the situation worse.

But, I don't see any point debating further since this article is by nature unverifiable unless some other agency reports the same. The "propaganda" is out there, kindly make up your own minds.
 
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