"Red Flag" exercise called off due to US budget cut

[Abingdonboy]

To be honest, I doubt that the data collected at Red Flag is much of a help for IAF at all, especially since it's doubtful that they share all the data they gather and don't forget that these NATO exercises are mainly aimed on their threat perceptions, not on ours.
For IAF, a credible exercise with various different fighters from different forces in India, with our climate, the geograpical differences would be more important don't you think?
It would be interesting if they go for 3 x different locations, instead of 1 big one. Consider a 3 days exercise with locations in hot, cold and desert areas.

I agree, specifically what I was referencing was the data collection that was then used to debrief air-crews. I had spoken to an IAF officer in the past (not a pilot) and he said that this facilty had really impressed the IAF and they had since been playing around with similar tech and practices.

I'd say the IAF's "RED FLAG" could be held annually over the span of a week to ten days and that it could rotate through the 3 highlighted terrains. For this purpose the IAF would need to set up 3 "mini-Nellis" like AFBs but this would be a major boon to the IAF's war-gaming exercises that are held on a semi-annual basis these days. When the "desi RED FLAG" wasn't taking place the 3 AFBs could still use the tech to practice and sim fight albeit on a smaller, local, scale.

 

[sancho]

What locations would you be looking at in such case ? The simulation tech and data collection at the Red Flag is unparalleled in the world and I cant think of any facility in India or generally South Asia which can remotely be compared to that ...

Can't tell you specific locations, but when we take the MMRCA trials as the base, we have seen test at Leh, Jammu and Kashmir, Jaisalmer and Rajasthan.
No doubt that they have better simulation systems, but what's the use if you have other threat perceptions, areal conditions or rules of engagements than the NATO trains for example. The MKIs for example were highly limited capability in 2008 and although it definitely was a good experience in general, I bet IAF gained more from the exercises with French forces during Garuda 2010, or with RAF Typhoons and AWACS in India, where we could even deploy our A50 Phalcons for the first time.

 

[janon]

Of all the things they could do to reduce military spending, did the USA have to cancel red flag? And for what, a saving of 3.5 million dollars? (That's how much they save by this move, as per reports.) For crying out loud, they have a bloody 600 billion dollar budget. Penny wise and pound foolish!

 

[Secur]

Can't tell you specific locations, but when we take the MMRCA trials as the base, we have seen test at Leh, Jammu and Kashmir, Jaisalmer and Rajasthan.No doubt that they have better simulation systems, but what's the use if you have other threat perceptions, areal conditions or rules of engagements than the NATO trains for example.

I am quite sure that much information is already available in the public domain regarding airbases But still , no problem ... Yeah I heard about the MMRCA trials , conducted in a diverse climate but it would be very costly for you to host such exercise and invite other countries ...

Can you give me an idea of " conditions " set by USAF at Red Flags ? Exactly , what is it that you aren't allowed to do ?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Of all the things they could do to reduce military spending, did the USA have to cancel red flag? And for what, a saving of 3.5 million dollars? (That's how much they save by this move, as per reports.) For crying out loud, they have a bloody 600 billion dollar budget. Penny wise and pound foolish!

I agree- considering the number of over-budget and budget draining projects the US military has got itself tied into, you'd assume they'd start here when thinking about cutting.


I'd have thought TRAINING would be the last thing any military would want to start cutting when asked to cut budgets.



I guess the notorious nexus between the US military and defence firms strikes again.

 

[janon]

The IAF tested MMRCAs at those locations specifically to know which fighters would have issues in what conditions. That's not the objective of red flag like exercises, which is about aerial combat. And why would US cancel red flag and then spend money sending a team to India?

But sending one of their carriers over here and having an exercise between the IAF and USN seems like a good idea. The IN could try their skills with the newly aquired mig 29Ks as well. I'm sure that will cost less (for them) than transporting several land based USAF jets and AEWACs and associated equipment from USA to India.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I am quite sure that much information is already available in the public domain regarding airbases But still , no problem ... Yeah I heard about the MMRCA trials , conducted in a diverse climate but it would be very costly for you to host such exercise and invite other countries ...

Expensive sure, but so is the IAF sending 8 MKIs, 2 IL-78MKIs, 2 Super Hercs and 1 IL-76 half way around the world to Nellis! Additionally the IAF sends similar contingents abroad regularly to train in Europe or the M.East. It wouldn't be all that expensive to host such exercises for the IAF, and they aren't all that constrained bu funds, and considering that the norm on these occasions for the visiting AFs is topay their own way wrt fuel and accommodation and misc expenses then there isn't going to be all that expense incurred by the IAF in hosting such EXs.

But sending one of their carriers over here and having an exercise between the IAF and USN seems like a good idea. The IN could try their skills with the newly aquired mig 29Ks as well. I'm sure that will cost less (for them) than transporting several land based USAF jets and AEWACs and associated equipment from USA to India.

Isn't this what the MALABAR series of EXs is all about?

 

[Dillinger]

I am quite sure that much information is already available in the public domain regarding airbases But still , no problem ... Yeah I heard about the MMRCA trials , conducted in a diverse climate but it would be very costly for you to host such exercise and invite other countries ...

Can you give me an idea of " conditions " set by USAF at Red Flags ? Exactly , what is it that you aren't allowed to do ?

Well a cost analysis has never been done in the public domain for such a thing. But the IA is moving forward with specialized ranges and the IN is being supported by a massive up-gradation of naval bases and indirectly through a completed up-gradation of existing shipyards with Goliath cranes and modular building lines, 2 new green-field shipyards- one of them to be perhaps the largest in Asia along with an under construction ELF comm. facility. Seeing all of this the IAF will want a share in the pie beyond just acquisitions. Contrary to popular belief our defense expenditure did not fall this fiscal in absolute terms only the rate at which it had been increasing over the last few years in percentage terms has fallen. The IAF will dip its fingers. The question is will our babus see reason and go with it or not.

 

[janon]

Isn't this what the MALABAR series of EXs is all about?

Malabar series is mostly about naval warfare, and air combat is only one part of it. Several naval ships practise all sorts of manuevers, covering all aspects of naval warfare, including anti submarine warfare, maritime interdiction etc. But due to the cancellation of red flag, it may be a good idea to have an exercise with the USN, focussing solely on aerial combat. After all, their super hornets with all the bells and whistles is probably a more formidable machine than anything in the USAF, bar the F-22.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The question is will our babus see reason and go with it or not.

I don't see a reason why anyone will have a problem with the IAF setting up such bases/facilites.

 

[Dillinger]

I don't see a reason why anyone will have a problem with the IAF setting up such bases/facilites.

Yaara we live in a country where for close a decade certain ranges were denied to the IA and they were told fine you can have them but you "won't be allowed to fire weapons there". That is to say we'll put it under your name but you can't use it.

 

[sancho]

Can you give me an idea of " conditions " set by USAF at Red Flags ? Exactly , what is it that you aren't allowed to do ?

Depending on which side you are, you might be limited in radar or weapon range, for MKI it was even more difficult since they couldn't use their own radar with full performance, nor were their able to link with NATO AWACS either, which obviously limits the roles that they can play and their performance too.

The IAF tested MMRCAs at those locations specifically to know which fighters would have issues in what conditions. That's not the objective of red flag like exercises, which is about aerial combat.

Exactly, because that are important data for us, how our or other fighters would perform under the conditions we have, in an areal combat for example, or against our tactics.

And why would US cancel red flag and then spend money sending a team to India?

Because it's way cheaper for them to send 6 x F18SH and an E-2 AEW if they want from a carrier operating in the Arabian Sea, or Indian Ocean, than setting up such a huge exercise on their own.

 

[Secur]

Depending on which side you are, you might be limited in radar or weapon range, for MKI it was even more difficult since they couldn't use their own radar with full performance, nor were their able to link with NATO AWACS either, which obviously limits the roles that they can play and their performance too.

Well I know of the sides , I just wasn't sure of the rules for the engagements which were set ... What sense does it make to set limits , you want to practice , you want to know the tactics , why limit an aircrafts potential ? Was there no way around the compatibility problem with the AWACS ?

 

[Dillinger]

Well I know of the sides , I just wasn't sure of the rules for the engagements which were set ... What sense does it mate , you want to practice , you want to know the tactics , why limit an aircrafts potential ? Was there no way around the compatibility problem with the AWACS ?

No Link-16 no AWACS compatibility..and nope these secured information sharing networks are as secret as the Illuminati's HQ. NO way around the set conditions either unless we wanted the US to analyse emissions and signatures from the Bars radar on the MKI with impunity. A few Russians would have dropped dead due to that.

 

[janon]

Well I know of the sides , I just wasn't sure of the rules for the engagements which were set ... What sense does it make to set limits , you want to practice , you want to know the tactics , why limit an aircrafts potential ? Was there no way around the compatibility problem with the AWACS ?

The limitations were imposed by the IAF itself, since it did not want to reveal much about the capabilities and signal ranges of the highly secretive BARS radar.