Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars

[M. Sarmad]

I'm willing to extend the hand of reconciliation once again, it's up to you whether you take it or leave it.

I don't have anything against you, mate
I don't even know who you are

Because it does. Pakistan was made for the Muslims of what was then British India. Our nation owes it's very existence to individuals like Muhammad Bin Qasim, the first Muslim to take control of large portions of the region.

Absolute nonsense
But let's agree to disagree

It's the only identity that really matters in the end.

Being proud of your nationality makes no sense since it's literally taking pride over being born on a different piece of dirt.

And being proud of your ethnicity/tribe/race is also stupid since all of humanity has a common origin.

Religion is a matter of choice, Nationality can be changed/revoked
Only the ethnic identity is unchangeable
Yet, quite ironically, most of us prioritize our religious and nationalistic identities over our ethnic identities (or maybe simply because ethnic identities are often taken-for-granted?)
Deep down, we are all insecure in one way or the other

 

[Crixus]

Indians are not better but pdf is like mob mentality...... jats are Hindus , Muslims and Sikhs some say even you can find jar christians in western UP Muslim and Hindu jats share the same surname........ my point was just saying everything thing starts with Islam nothing before that was ridiculous... if some one converts to irrespective of reason we should respect that but just start abusing his or forefathers or their faith it’s worse .....

I won't say 90%, but yes, many of them. But I don't blame them either, as they have been brainwashed into believing that the history of Pakistan starts with Bin Qasim and that we have nothing in common with Indians... they are victims of state-sponsored religious-chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion.

But honestly speaking, looking at posts made by many Indian posters here, one can easily conclude that state of education in India doesn't seem to be any better.

I am not pointing towards you as quite visible in whole thread ... hate over shadows reasoning related to roots and really gives birth to identity crisis..... here everything related to Hindus is blasphemous and majority of current Pakistanis are converts whose forefathers once followed religions other then Islam so they start abusing even their own forefathers..... let me give you one example whole Pakistan feels proud in Harappa and Mohanzodaro but no one even acknowledges what religion they used to follow ....

I've only ever had one ID, I only changed my name.



Did you?

I've been perfectly amicable with you until you decided to start muttering nonsense. I'm willing to extend the hand of reconciliation once again, it's up to you whether you take it or leave it.



Because it does. Pakistan was made for the Muslims of what was then British India. Our nation owes it's very existence to individuals like Muhammad Bin Qasim, the first Muslim to take control of large portions of the region.



It's the only identity that really matters in the end.

Being proud of your nationality makes no sense since it's literally taking pride over being born on a different piece of dirt.

And being proud of your ethnicity/tribe/race is also stupid since all of humanity has a common origin.

Feeling close to one's tribe/race/ethnicity/nationality is one thing, being proud of it is another.



I've never said anything about history that wasn't based on facts. You're welcome to try and disprove what I said but I doubt you'll be able to.

 

[Hamza913]

I don't have anything against you, mate
I don't even know who you are

Nice to see that we've reached a point of amicability.

Absolute nonsense
But let's agree to disagree

I might make a thread on this topic later, we can discuss that there.

Religion is a matter of choice, Nationality can be changed/revoked
Only the ethnic identity is unchangeable
Yet, quite ironically, most of us prioritize our religious and nationalistic identities over our ethnic identities (or maybe simply because ethnic identities are often taken-for-granted?)
Deep down, we are all insecure in one way or the other

Because Islam comes first. In our religion, there is no room for nationalism for anything other than the religion. We all come from Adam (peace be upon him) anyway, so these ethnic identities are pretty redundant in comparison, and we are supposed to act as one Ummah, which makes these national identities pretty silly too.

He is not one of us who calls to tribalism. He is not one of us who fights for the sake of tribalism. He is not one of us who dies following the way of tribalism.

Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 5102, Grade: Sahih

Whoever is killed under the banner of blind following, who calls to tribalism or supports tribalism, then he has died upon ignorance.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1850, Grade: Sahih

The parable of the believers in their affection, mercy, and compassion for each other is that of a body. When any limb aches, the whole body reacts with sleeplessness and fever.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 5665, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2586

Ibn Taymiyah said: "Everything that is foreign to the call of Islam and the Qur'an, with regards to lineage, land, nationality, schools of thoughts and methodologies, then that is from the calls of the Days of Ignorance (jahiliyah). Once the Muhajireen and the Ansar argued, such that one of the Muhajireen said: 'O Muhajireen!' (meaning, come to assist me) And one of the Ansar said: 'O Ansar!' Upon hearing this, the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: 'Is it with the calls of Jahiliyah that you cry out, while l am still amongst you?!' [Reported by Al-Bukhaaree (8/137)] And he became very angry at that."[Majmoo'-ul-Fatawa (3/456)]

 

[M. Sarmad]

Because Islam comes first. In our religion, there is no room for nationalism for anything other than the religion. We all come from Adam (peace be upon him) anyway, so these ethnic identities are pretty redundant in comparison, and we are supposed to act as one Ummah, which makes these national identities pretty silly too.

He is not one of us who calls to tribalism. He is not one of us who fights for the sake of tribalism. He is not one of us who dies following the way of tribalism.

Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 5102, Grade: Sahih

Whoever is killed under the banner of blind following, who calls to tribalism or supports tribalism, then he has died upon ignorance.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1850, Grade: Sahih

The parable of the believers in their affection, mercy, and compassion for each other is that of a body. When any limb aches, the whole body reacts with sleeplessness and fever.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 5665, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2586

Ibn Taymiyah said: "Everything that is foreign to the call of Islam and the Qur'an, with regards to lineage, land, nationality, schools of thoughts and methodologies, then that is from the calls of the Days of Ignorance (jahiliyah). Once the Muhajireen and the Ansar argued, such that one of the Muhajireen said: 'O Muhajireen!' (meaning, come to assist me) And one of the Ansar said: 'O Ansar!' Upon hearing this, the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: 'Is it with the calls of Jahiliyah that you cry out, while l am still amongst you?!' [Reported by Al-Bukhaaree (8/137)] And he became very angry at that."[Majmoo'-ul-Fatawa (3/456)]

^^That's just one of the many interpretations we have. Majority of the Islamic scholars in sub continent didn't accept this position. I have posted it before, re-posting here:


During the struggle for the freedom(and even today), the most important issue which concerned Muslim Scholars and political activists was about the national and religious identity of Indian Muslims and their position in the future India ...


Hussain Ahmed Madani (The Rector of Darul Uloom Deoband) and many others advocated "Composite Nationalism", (i.e. despite cultural, linguistic and religious differences, the people of India were but one nation). The proponents of composite nationalism believed/argued that this idea was consistent with the teachings of the Holy Quran and that the Prophet (PBUH) himself had set a practical example of Composite Nationalism when he signed the Constitution of Medina (Meesaq-e-Medina)



Then there were those who advocated the idea of "Muslim Nationalism in India" ... This idea formed the basis of the Two Nation Theory ... This idea/theory implies/implied that We were Muslims before being Indian ... And We were Indian before being (Non-Indian) Muslim ... This theory created and propounded by modernist and reformist Muslims (like Sir Syed) was inspired by Western Political Theories (of John Lock, Thomas Paine, Milton etc.).... It in a way advocated a Pan-Islamism that was restricted by geographical boundaries of the Nation state (of India, and now Pakistan).


And there were others (like Maududi) who were of the view that neither Composite Nationalism nor Muslim Nationalism were Islamic in their orientation, therefore, they warned the Muslims of the sub-continent to be beware of both. Few of them advocated "Pan-Islamism"


I believe the Pakistani nationalist ideology is very unique, and (for the Pakistani Muslims at least) Pakistani Nationalism and Islam are not mutually exclusive ..... I for one do not prioritize a Pakistani identity over Muslim identity (or vice versa). But there are those who claim to be Pakistani First, and then there are those who say that they are Muslim First. Both these claims are consistent with TNT as the TNT has both ingredients; Pan-Islamic and Nationalist. But as it is Pan-Islamism that is restricted by the Nation State boundary (and not the other way around), "Pakistani First", in my opinion, is the more valid and realistic position.

 

[Hamza913]

really gives birth to identity crisis.

I have never seen this so-called identity crisis. Pakistanis know what we are. We're Muslims, then people from the Indus, then whatever ethnicity we belong, then whatever tribe we belong to, and finally, we're whatever clan we belong to.

This forum feels the same too, even if some people here don't put those identities in that order (but most Pakistanis in real life do).

here everything related to Hindus is blasphemous and majority of current Pakistanis are converts whose forefathers once followed religions other then Islam so they start abusing even their own forefathers

Rasullulah (peace be upon him) himself had no qualms in admitting his parents were both Kafirs, and that his father was going to hell. Sorry but in Islam, religion comes first. A true Muslim will have no qualms disowning his ancestors if, as per Islam, they were terrible people.

And my paternal clan is descended from a Sufi, so again, I don't have this forefather problem. There are no Kafir Bara (unless one of us decided/decides to convert).

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/471...-of-allaah-be-upon-him-in-paradise-or-in-hell

Muslim (203) narrated from Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that a man said: “O Messenger of Allaah, where is my father?” He said: “In Hell.” When he turned away he called him back and said: “My father and your father are in Hell.”

Muslim (976) narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I asked my Lord for permission to pray for forgiveness for my mother, but He did not give me permission. And I asked Him for permission to visit her grave, and He gave me permission.”

It says in ‘Awn al-Ma’bood:

“But He did not give me permission” means: because she was a kaafirah (disbeliever) and it is not permissible to pray for forgiveness for the kuffaar.

Also, Muslims believe that all of humanity comes from a common origin and that these early humans were originally Muslim. There is also the belief that (prior to Rasulullah, peace be upon him), Prophets were sent to every group of people. As per this belief, our original ancestors were Muslim, and there would have been Prophets of Islam who came from the Indus too.

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/138770/were-any-prophets-sent-to-the-people-of-africa-and-europe

“And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghoot (all false deities, etc. i.e. do not worship Taghoot besides Allah)”

[an-Nahl 16:36].

let me give you one example whole Pakistan feels proud in Harappa and Mohanzodaro but no one even acknowledges what religion they used to follow

We don't know what religion they followed, but we know for a fact that it wasn't Hinduism since that came much later with the Aryans.

^^That's just one of the many interpretations we have. Majority of the Islamic scholars in sub continent didn't accept this position.

Majority of scholars from the Indian sub-continent thought it was OK to side with India over other Muslims. They're not exactly the greatest authority.

I for one do not prioritize a Pakistani identity over Muslim identity (or vice versa)

Well, they go hand-in-hand in my eyes, but I will always be Muslim first.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I am sick of this myth perpetuated by the Indian government of so-called heroic resistance of Rajputs against Muslim invaders.

Bro, this is not a 'myth' perpetuated by the Indian government. Some of the greatest Arab Islamic historians of that era have also acknowledged this 'heroic' resistance in their seminal works .... Although they have mentioned 'Guzar/Juzr'(Gujar) Kings of Gurjara-Desh, not Rajputs (the term did not exist back then), as their most formidable enemies. Will post details later

 

[Hamza913]

Bro, this is not a 'myth' perpetuated by the Indian government. Some of the greatest Arab Islamic historians of that era have also acknowledged this 'heroic' resistance in their seminal works .... Although they have mentioned 'Guzar'(Gujar) Kings of Gurjara-Desh, not Rajputs (the term did not exist back then), as their most formidable enemies. Will post details later

Both were known as being pretty fierce resistors to the Muslim invasions. Gujjars were called Jurz and referred to as good fighters, and the king of the Gujjar Empire at the time of the Ummayads was called the best king of Hind.

@M. Sarmad

Map of the Gujjar Empire (one of many, but the most well-known one)

@M. Sarmad

You might also be interested in Rana Kumbha, he was one of history's undefeated military leaders who belonged to the Sisodia clan (present among both Rajputs and Gujjars).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumbha_of_Mewar

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Bro, this is not a 'myth' perpetuated by the Indian government. Some of the greatest Arab Islamic historians of that era have also acknowledged this 'heroic' resistance in their seminal works .... Although they have mentioned 'Guzar/Juzr'(Gujar) Kings of Gurjara-Desh, not Rajputs (the term did not exist back then), as their most formidable enemies. Will post details later

We are Muslims now, which totally destroys their propaganda options.

They want to keep that part hidden from their population.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Yeah my mother's side came from Hoshiarpur. Most of them made it out alive, but one relative got stabbed during partition.

Inna lillahi wa Inna ilayhi rajioon.

I know how you feel as I lost uncles fighting in the 1971 failed Indian invasion of Lahore.

May Allah swt bless all our shuhada.

Both were known as being pretty fierce resistors to the Muslim invasions.

Who eventually converted wholesale to Islamic religion and civilization.

More Indians need to learn the last part of our history, that is our Islamization and our roles in the Muslim dynasties and resistance against the British.

hahaha

what a load of bullshit thread , we don't need indian to make pdf toxic

That’s because they are unable to separate religion from history/tribe.

 

[Sam.]

These are very narrow regional interpretations; the Ahirs and Yadavs have better credentials (in western India only) as cowherds. Everyone is a farmer, not particularly the Jat. And the Rajput is born to battle, with or without the money; 'mercenary' has strong connections. Jats from the Sindh is quite possible; remember where the Sakas ruled? Rajputs talk about Mount Abu because the archetypical fire sacrifice took place there. Gujjars coming in much earlier is merely a memory of the phased, pulse nature of the incursions of this period.

Our bloodline hails from Sindh centuries ago as i said love to take your mind about our history or your guidance towards some books.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Because it does. Pakistan was made for the Muslims of what was then British India. Our nation owes it's very existence to individuals like Muhammad Bin Qasim, the first Muslim to take control of large portions of the region.

Being proud of your nationality makes no sense since it's literally taking pride over being born on a different piece of dirt.

And being proud of your ethnicity/tribe/race is also stupid since all of humanity has a common origin.

Feeling close to one's tribe/race/ethnicity/nationality is one thing, being proud of it is another.

I've never said anything about history that wasn't based on facts. You're welcome to try and disprove what I said but I doubt you'll be able to.

Excellent.

That puts an end to the ridiculous claims that the remnants of the Indus Valley Civilisation are heirlooms of Pakistan.

@Indus Pakistan

Evidently he didn't get the memo. Such people are known to Communists as 'useful <something or the other that I can't remember>'.

Our bloodline hails from Sindh centuries ago as i said love to take your mind about our history or your guidance towards some books.

Be delighted to help. I mentioned the Comprehensive History of India and the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan series, but any further recommendations are dependent on the extent and objective of your historical interest. Are you planning to read, or planning to write?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

We can have respect for both Muhammad Bin Qasim and also IVC/Taxila/Mohenjodaro, similar to how Egyptian Muslims pride themselves on the Islamic conquest but still maintain respect and pride for Pharoanic Egypt.

Pakistan is primarily a religious state (Islamic) but we also take pride in our blood heritage. This is why the focus on pagan Kalash, our folktales, and ancient sites.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Pakistani identity is vibrant and dynamic.

 

[Sam.]

Be delighted to help. I mentioned the Comprehensive History of India and the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan series, but any further recommendations are dependent on the extent and objective of your historical interest. Are you planning to read, or planning to write?

I am planning to read as that is my hobby , i have two hours reserved daily for that activity. Currently looking for our bloodline history. We are Jat and surname is Rathi and my wife Malik.

If you could provide online link then it will be fantastic. Thanks in advance sir.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am planning to read as that is my hobby , i have two hours reserved daily for that activity. Currently looking for our bloodline history. We are Jat and surname is Rathi and my wife Malik.

If you could provide online link then it will be fantastic. Thanks in advance sir.

Most interesting.

Give me a couple of days, and I will send you a reading list. It is very encouraging to see such enthusiasm.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistan feels proud in Harappa and Mohanzodaro but no one even acknowledges what religion they used to follow ....

They do. Just that the they don't fall for your ridicalous claim that they were Hindu's. A term only coined few centuries ago and even then to a concept so vague that it can be applied to anything.

Islamism

Can never be restricted within 'patch of dirt' as @Taimur Khurram would say. As a identity or concept 'Muslim' will never be restricted to a geography. It goes against the very notion of Islam that is universal.

And the very heart of the Pakistani crisis of identity is trying to brand a religion - Islam that is global and universal. This will never work. How the hell can people even think they can tie down a uinversal faith that has global presence and majority religion in nearly 40 countries be branded into one geography on the Indus Valley?

Ridicalous ....

Ps. I looked into this in another thread. The contradiction is laid bare in the map below.