Rafale true force multiplier, a pair is equal to Six Mirage-2000s, deal with India soon: Dassault Ch

[[Bregs]]

Eric Trappier who is the chairman and chief executive of Dassault while speaking to French media told that a deal with India regarding possible sale of 36 Rafales would be formalised this month and he also revealed that Dassault would take the lead to find a local partner, who could built additional Rafales under license in India .

image uploading​

Dassault Chief virtually has indicated that HAL may not be the prime contractor should India agrees to buy additional Rafale fighter jet.

Dassault Chief termed Rafale fighter jet as a true force multiplier and also said that a Pair of heavily armed “Omni role” Rafale has same combat potential as Six Mirage-2000s.

Trappier said that recent spate of export orders will need ramping up of Rafale production rates soon, but he was also cautious and said that there are certain challenges to ramp up Supply Chain which involves close to 500 entities.

Speaking on F3R upgrade program Trappier said that Integration of MBDA’s Meteor BVR missile and SAGEM Hammer AASM will take place in near future for which French government already has cleared a $1 Billion upgrade program to latest F3R standard.

Sources close to idrw.org have informed us that French negotiation team still believes that India will eventually continue with its full requirements for 126 Rafales to meet the original MMRCA requirements even though India officially has cancelled MMRCA tender.

Rafale true force multiplier, a pair is equal to Six Mirage-2000s, deal with India soon: Dassault Chief | idrw.org

 

[C130]

indeed with a load like this it is a force multiple compared to Mirage-2000s

now only if the AASM wasn't so darn expensive compared to JDAM that force multiple would be even better

 

[PARIKRAMA]

A side question
Egypt and Qatar are getting which standard Rafale - F3 or F3R?
if its former then is F3R upgradation part of their package?

If IAF specified rafale is say different from Qatar/Egypt standards, then what could be the major difference? In terms of price how much it will be cheaper (based on standards only)

if the standard upgradation is a part of say MLU, going by past records, MLU cost of french birds is more in the range of 50 - 80% plus costs of flyaway bird so in that sense, whats really the plan for IAF selected Rafales? MLU or No MLU or MLU but no standard upgradation?

This is to understand that potential 36+90 order would have what future upgrades

 

[Imran Khan]

bhaav bardha raha hai bhai ? ok good deal lets hope its over

 

[RazorMC]

I understand Rafale being a very advanced fighter, but this is just absurd:

Dassault Chief termed Rafale fighter jet as a true force multiplier and also said that a Pair of heavily armed “Omni role” Rafale has same combat potential as Six Mirage-2000s.

Can't decide if the Rafale is the best aircraft in the world or the Mirages were crap.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Something is getting clearer here....
"he also revealed that Dassault would take the lead to find a local partner, who could built additional Rafales under license in India"

So the deal is likely to continue through a different via-media.

 

[Makaramarma]

How is the GoI going to ensure Rafale's stick to the deal and is held accountable for the money they have promised to invest back ? How is the govt. going to ensure Dassalut will do so in prescribed TIME and if they don't What is the Penalty they will suffer ?

How can we ensure that Dassault will not Black mail us now or in the future ?

I think the GoI is messing up. I sure hope some serious safe guards exists.

 

[SR-91]

Eric Trappier who is the chairman and chief executive of Dassault while speaking to French media told that a deal with India regarding possible sale of 36 Rafales would be formalised this month and he also revealed that Dassault would take the lead to find a local partner, who could built additional Rafales under license in India .

image uploading​

Dassault Chief virtually has indicated that HAL may not be the prime contractor should India agrees to buy additional Rafale fighter jet.

Dassault Chief termed Rafale fighter jet as a true force multiplier and also said that a Pair of heavily armed “Omni role” Rafale has same combat potential as Six Mirage-2000s.

Trappier said that recent spate of export orders will need ramping up of Rafale production rates soon, but he was also cautious and said that there are certain challenges to ramp up Supply Chain which involves close to 500 entities.

Speaking on F3R upgrade program Trappier said that Integration of MBDA’s Meteor BVR missile and SAGEM Hammer AASM will take place in near future for which French government already has cleared a $1 Billion upgrade program to latest F3R standard.

Sources close to idrw.org have informed us that French negotiation team still believes that India will eventually continue with its full requirements for 126 Rafales to meet the original MMRCA requirements even though India officially has cancelled MMRCA tender.

Rafale true force multiplier, a pair is equal to Six Mirage-2000s, deal with India soon: Dassault Chief | idrw.org

@Abingdonboy
Straight out of horses mouth "he also revealed that Dassault would take the lead to find a local partner, who could built additional Rafales under license in India".

We have been saying this all along, "36 is not the magic number", it will be much more.
Now, all i wanna know is how many??

 

[Abingdonboy]

he also revealed that Dassault would take the lead to find a local partner, who could built additional Rafales under license in India .

But India is only getting 36 Rafales, right?

@Hindustani78 @GURU DUTT @Ind4Ever @PARIKRAMA @Gabriel92

How is the GoI going to ensure Rafale's stick to the deal and is held accountable for the money they have promised to invest back ? How is the govt. going to ensure Dassalut will do so in prescribed TIME and if they don't What is the Penalty they will suffer ?
How can we ensure that Dassault will not Black mail us now or in the future ?
I think the GoI is messing up. I sure hope some serious safe guards exists.

There are sufficient safeguards in place in all such deals, the Rafale purchase will not be the first multi-billion USD defence deal India has ever conducted with massive offset requirements, this will all be handled by the respective agencies in accordance with binding contracts. Sufficient securities will be in place to protect both sides.


This Rafale deal has made some people so paranoid.

Now, all i wanna know is how many??

I could tell you what I know to be true (i.e. 90-153 made in India) but I know the typical characters will come along and be skeptical so let's just wait and see what happens. I have had some pretty positive conversations with people I know in the defence industry in the past 36 hours so I am more than a little confident

I understand Rafale being a very advanced fighter, but this is just absurd:

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Can't decide if the Rafale is the best aircraft in the world or the Mirages were crap.

It is clearly a very self-serving narrative and what can one expect, is new not always better when it comes to salesmen and their products? Anyway, it depends on what criteria Mr Trappier is using to quantify this 2 Rafales= 6 Mirage 2000s assessment. To be honest this is not entirely absurd given the substantial advances in technology that have been made in the past few decades since the Mirage 2000 entered service. The SPECTRA suite on the Rafales alone is a completely revolutionary system that rivals that of even 5th generation aircraft (F-22) let alone the M2K. Adding to that is the inherent hardware advantages the Rafale has over the single engined M2K (longer range, more manoeuvrable, higher weapons carrying capability etc) I had seen a Dassualt document a few years back that said 1 SQN alone could cover the entire airspace of India in an air policing role without any help from ground assets using AWACS support and its own sensors for situational awareness.

Having said that, it is all too easy to come up with specific statistics to back up almost any argument you want to make- as they say "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

@Abingdonboy
Straight out of horses mouth "he also revealed that Dassault would take the lead to find a local partner, who could built additional Rafales under license in India".

We have been saying this all along, "36 is not the magic number", it will be much more.
Now, all i wanna know is how many??

What's more important is:

that French negotiation team still believes that India will eventually continue with its full requirements for 126 Rafales to meet the original MMRCA requirements even though India officially has cancelled MMRCA tender.

This is going to cause a lot of heartburn to certain people.....

 

[Capt.Popeye]

How is the GoI going to ensure Rafale's stick to the deal and is held accountable for the money they have promised to invest back ? How is the govt. going to ensure Dassalut will do so in prescribed TIME and if they don't What is the Penalty they will suffer ?

How can we ensure that Dassault will not Black mail us now or in the future ?

I think the GoI is messing up. I sure hope some serious safe guards exists.

This is a commercial contract; both for the 36 aircraft and will be the same for any later tranches that come through. In a sense; it is extremely good news that HAL is being kept out of it. Now the contract will incorporate 'penalty clauses'. Intriguingly DPSUs have been immune to this kind of caveat, all in the name of gaining expertise under TOT arrangements.
Finally, any hazards if any in the future; will be politically based viz. sanctions etc. But that falls in the domain of the French Govt. not Dassault.
Govt. of France has a clear record on this point, unlike the American and British Govts in the past.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Abingdonboy Long road ahead my friend.. we know rafale is coming.. and i said its cmg in a big way...TBH i see the rafale numbers at par with French AF over time as i do feel IN will give orders too..
The biggest challenge to Dassault is to find a credible partner in India either with or without HAL as minority stake holder in that new company JV. Incredibly the timelines and whole process of production under MII is going to create more heart burn.
I see in future 350 MKIs all super standard upgraded types, 200+ rafales, 100 FGFA and over 200 LCAs, 100+ scorpions, 150 hawks.. something like that.. but path to that is gonna be very long and with many bumps..(oh pls don say abt amca.. i feel we should do amca only after kaveri success.. so i am keeping 2028-30 types planning.. i don want any outside engines actually.. wishful thinking perhaps)

oh btw, i do want scalp meteor and hammer aasm too.. well when we r getting so many why not buy and co produce them locally.. for 200 rafales we can afford the armaments too.. lets get them under MII and lets see what best we can do there too.. perhaps try and get them cross functional across platforms if possible as part of customization. Ya u can argue saying French missiles are costly but again for 200 type rafales its btter we get these armaments too..

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy Long road ahead my friend.. we know rafale is coming.. and i said its cmg in a big way...TBH i see the rafale numbers at par with French AF over time as i do feel IN will give orders too..
The biggest challenge to Dassault is to find a credible partner in India either with or without HAL as minority stake holder in that new company JV. Incredibly the timelines and whole process of production under MII is going to create more heart burn.
I see in future 350 MKIs all super standard upgraded types, 200+ rafales, 100 FGFA and over 200 LCAs, 100+ scorpions, 150 hawks.. something like that.. but path to that is gonna be very long and with many bumps..(oh pls don say abt amca.. i feel we should do amca only after kaveri success.. so i am keeping 2028-30 types planning.. i don want any outside engines actually.. wishful thinking perhaps)

oh btw, i do want scalp meteor and hammer aasm too.. well when we r getting so many why not buy and co produce them locally.. for 200 rafales we can afford the armaments too.. lets get them under MII and lets see what best we can do there too.. perhaps try and get them cross functional across platforms if possible as part of customization. Ya u can argue saying French missiles are costly but again for 200 type rafales its btter we get these armaments too..

To be honest I am not hopeful about the IN ordering the Rafale-Ms at this point, it seems that (and it makes sense) they are intent on a 5th gen platform to equip their future class of ACs. However, this could change once the Rafale production line is up and running in India and the IN has a closer look at this beast and Dassualt starts to court the men in white with their future roadmap of the Rafale (F4 and beyond).

+ the total FGFA figure will be 200-250 as per the original agreement between India and Russia, all the nonsense about the IAF reducing numbers to as low as 60 (LMAO) has no basis.

++ I am almost 100% certain the Scorpion will not be ordered by the IAF and doesn't need to be

+++ I won't comment on the AMCA for the foreseeable future but I would say the next 2-3 years will be worth watching as far as the AMCA goes. A lot of indicators are pointing to the fact the GoI/MoD has an eye on the AMCA and once the present fires (FGFA, Rafale and LCA) are addressed, focus will quickly turn to this beast.

++++ as for French weapons, it will be interesting to watch this space. I think there is more than a strong possibility these weapons will come under "Make in india" once India commits to some serious Rafale orders, in fact, by the very govt-govt nature of this new exercise I would almost guarantee some "sweetners" have been extracted out of the French.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

To be honest I am not hopeful about the IN ordering the Rafale-Ms at this point, it seems that (and it makes sense) they are intent on a 5th gen platform to equip their future class of ACs. However, this could change once the Rafale production line is up and running in India and the IN has a closer look at this beast and Dassualt starts to court the men in white with their future roadmap of the Rafale (F4 and beyond).

++++ as for French weapons, it will be interesting to watch this space. I think there is more than a strong possibility these weapons will come under "Make in india" once India commits to some serious Rafale orders, in fact, by the very govt-govt nature of this new exercise I would almost guarantee some "sweetners" have been extracted out of the French.

Strangely which pvt sector folks other than Reliance you think can tie up with Dassault? i mean you feel Tata can come in inspite of existing tie up with other major (C295 plan) ? Mahindra Aersospace?
i asked bcz a credible pvt sector company with sound mgmt skills like TATA can change the name and fate of JV to much higher standards then say for eg Reliance

surely sweetners are there.. but i do wish for cross functionality.. it wud be awesome seeing brahmos A or M across all IAF platforms same like say meteor in MKIs or even scalp.. lol

 

[Abingdonboy]

Strangely which pvt sector folks other than Reliance you think can tie up with Dassault? i mean you feel Tata can come in inspite of existing tie up with other major (C295 plan) ? Mahindra Aersospace?

I don't see the Airbus Military JV with TATA hindering the latter from tying up with Dassualt, I don't think this would come under any competition clause TATA might have signed with Airbus Military as Airbus Military do not manufacture a fighter plane additionally given Airbus Military is another French OEM and the current Rafale talks are fundamentally a Govt-Govt affair I can't see Airbus getting in the way should the situation arise. Also, TATA has some seriously DEEP pockets and are looking to ramp-up their defence portfolio. Other than that, I assume L&T would be a consideration and these are who I would like to see enter into a JV with Dassualt.


But, yes, most signs point towards a Reliance-Dassault JV which, for me, is not my preference but it is what it is and I am sure it will be successful give the stakes involved and the vetting process carried out on both sides at both industrial and governmental levels.

surely sweetners are there.. but i do wish for cross functionality.. it wud be awesome seeing brahmos A or M across all IAF platforms same like say meteor in MKIs or even scalp.. lol

I certainly think both options are possible- the Super Su-30MKI's final weapon package is still being worked on and the Bhramos-A/M launcher rack has been designed with the explicit intent of fitting on the Rafale and MiG-29UPG/K.

+ Cross-platform commonality will be further assured when the Astra enters service and will be integrated to all future IAF platforms (MKI, Rafale, LCA, FGFA etc).

 

[Optimos Prime IA]

I understand Rafale being a very advanced fighter, but this is just absurd:

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Can't decide if the Rafale is the best aircraft in the world or the Mirages were crap.

Its not about play load but availability . In kargil Mirage nearly touched 90% operational against 55-60% of mig 29 . It means more shorties . With the amount of playload and advanced weaponry for Rafale's then his statement can be valid .