Rafale is not a Game Changer - Senior Analyst Shahzad Chaudhry

[Figaro]

Top major Russia-China arms deals - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

Sorry dude, you don't know what you are talking about.

Do you know what the word mainstay is? The vast majority of the PLAAF at the time was third generation fighters. And I even told you the Chinese pilots behind the imported Russian aircraft got over 200 hours of training per year in the 2000s. For third generation airframes, the average training time was indeed considerably lower (120 hours is not bad for something like the J-8).

Su 30 MKI in India has faced majorly engine issues.

Could just be shoddy Indian engine maintenance also ... I would be surprised if the Indians do engine checks at all. Also, tell me where the Kaveri is?

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

Do you know what the word mainstay is? The vast majority of the PLAAF at the time was third generation fighters. And I even told you the Chinese pilots behind the imported Russian aircraft got over 200 hours of training per year.

100 fighters is NOT a "very small number" by ANY stretch of imagination.

Do provide me a source of 200 hours though.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

Could just be shoddy Indian engine maintenance also ... I would be surprised if the Indians do engine checks at all. Also, tell me where the Kaveri is?

Indian french Mirage don't suffer that many crashes, nor we hear about so many issues with them from IAF. They are older than Su30 MKIs.

 

[Figaro]

100 fighters is NOT a "very small number" by ANY stretch of imagination.

Do provide me a source of 200 hours though.

An airforce that had well over 3000 fighter aircraft in 2007, of which only a 100 were 4th generation? That is a 3% of ratio my guy ... how is this not a very small number?

This came from the publication associated with the USAF.

Meantime, the Aviation University welcomed new pilot cadets into the “blue sky phalanx.” Xu Qiliang, the PLAAF commander, and Gen. Deng Changyou, the PLAAF’s political commissar, flew from Beijing to Jilin Province, to attend the ceremony in September 2011. Singled out for a welcome was Wang Xu, the first pilot cadet recruited from Tsinghua University to Aviation University. He has been selected to attend Aviation University for further studies.

In flight training, today’s PLAAF reportedly gives pilots 200 hours a year in the air, a striking increase from the fewer than 24 hours a year during the depths of the Cultural Revolution. In this respect, the PLAAF is approaching the standard set by USAF. China’s days of fielding obsolete air forces with poor training and outdated doctrine have clearly come to an end.

A Revolution for China’s Air Force | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The days of antiquated equipment, questionable training, and outdated concepts are over.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

An airforce that had well over 3000 fighter aircraft in 2007, of which only a 100 were 4th generation? That is a 3% of ratio my guy ... how is this not a very small number?

The article was about Chinese first division flying Su27s. They were only clocking 120 hours. In 2007, IAF was clocking 200-240 hours on Su30s.

India signs deal with Russia to swap fighter jets - Indian Express

India and Russia have signed a $500-million deal for swapping 18 Sukhoi fighter jets in service with IAF for the latest version of air superiority multi-role warbirds tailored to meet Indian requireme

archive.indianexpress.com

in 2005-06, Su30s operated by India had average 1500 flying hours on them. These were purchased new in 1997-1999.

That will put flying hours of 214 per year.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

In flight training, today’s PLAAF reportedly gives pilots 200 hours a year in the air

Thats training hours. How many hours were they clocking on Su30s or Su27s?

 

[Figaro]

The article was about Chinese first division flying Su27s. They were only clocking 120 hours. In 2007, IAF was clocking 200-240 hours on Su30s.

India signs deal with Russia to swap fighter jets - Indian Express

India and Russia have signed a $500-million deal for swapping 18 Sukhoi fighter jets in service with IAF for the latest version of air superiority multi-role warbirds tailored to meet Indian requireme

archive.indianexpress.com

in 2005-06, Su30s operated by India had average 1500 flying hours on them. These were purchased new in 1997-1999.

That will put flying hours of 214 per year.

Chinese officials said all their pilots are college graduates and that 96 percent of them are capable of handling complex air operations. The officials said pilots average 120 hours of flying time per year with most of their training centered on tactical considerations. Roughly 35 percent of pilot training is at night. They said they had about 130 pilots for the 100 aircraft in the unit.

They never said the 120 hours was restricted to the 1st Division ... in this paragraph, it is clear they are referring to the general PLAAF rather than its vanguard.

Thats training hours. How many hours were they clocking on Su30s or Su27s?

In flight training, today’s PLAAF reportedly gives pilots 200 hours a year in the air
He literally said 200 hours in the air each year ....
As to the aircraft, it is most likely 4th generation (or a heavily upgraded 3rd generation variant) considering most 3rd generation airframes would not handle that much stress.

 

[CrazyZ]

The curious thing is that the original Rafale purchase was supposed to be 110 or 120 but got scaled down to 36.

Indian planners underestimated the combo of JF-17, Mirage Rose and F-16 block 52's. They thought Su-30 was all they needed. The Americans even approved the F-16 block 52's because they thought SU-30 would dominate PAF.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

He literally said 200 hours in the air each year ....

But how many on Su30 and Su27

Clearly, Su30 and Su27 is NOT the dominant fighter in PLAAF in terms of numbers.

 

[CrazyZ]

Which is why I am shocked that India decided to pull out of the FGFA program and then purchase the S-400, killing any chances of purchasing the F-35s. What was India trying to accomplish here? Does India not want 5th generation aircraft in a realistic timeframe? Whoever is running IAF procurement really needs to get booted.

Indian planners made a serious of blunders. SU-30 was over hyped and isn't the best type of AC for front line skirmishs with light fighters, especially in the era of data links and smart munitions.

I'm not complaining. The PAF could have two 5 gen AC in its inventory in the next 10-20 years (AZM and J-31 or better versions). Plus large amounts of JF-17. Best AC IAF will have over that time is 4.5 gen Rafales (or similar American type).

 

[Figaro]

JF-17 is Chinese junk.
Mirage is indeed an ace in the hole.
F16 is true air dominance because it has the best armament in the region. AIM120-C5.

Rafale with Meteor trumps all of them but its too small in numbers. India won't induct more than 36 Rafale in coming 10 years due to economic situation.

Even JF-17 Block IIs will make mince meat of your MKIs. Block IIIs will be able to least compete with the Rafales on fair footing.

But how many on Su30 and Su27

Clearly, Su30 and Su27 is NOT the dominant fighter in PLAAF in terms of numbers.

Already answered your question

 

[CrazyZ]

The curious thing is that the original Rafale purchase was supposed to be 110 or 120 but got scaled down to 36.

I will add that part of the Indian Rafale deal was motived by stopping its sale to Pakistan. India did that with the mirage 2000's earlier. They promised the French a big order if they sold to India only. Once Rafale was out of PAF hands and Pakistan was embroiled in the war on terror (with its tremendous economic damage) the Indians could easily screw the French and reneged on the large order knowing they had the SU30's.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

I will add that part of the Indian Rafale deal was motived by stopping its sale to Pakistan. India did that with the mirage 2000's earlier. They promised the French a big order if they sold to India only. Once Rafale was out of PAF hands and Pakistan was embroiled in the war on terror (with its tremendous economic damage) the Indians could easily screw the French and reneged on the large order knowing they had the SU30's.

Seriously? You could have ordered the contender. EF Thunder. I think it was finances which stopped Pakistan.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

Even JF-17 Block IIs will make mince meat of your MKIs. Block IIIs will be able to least compete with the Rafales on fair footing.

Unproven. All of Chinese missiles are unproven. Given that Chinese don't have any sense of quality, its export versions are even worse. There is a reason when it comes to air to air dominance, Pakistan still goes for F-16.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

Already answered your question

No dear, you didn't.. You only provided training numbers on god knows what platform.

India in 2007 was having higher number of hours on Su30s ie 214 hours per year. China had 120 hours on su-27.