Rafale is not a Game Changer - Senior Analyst Shahzad Chaudhry

[ziaulislam]

Rafale is very good platefrom but only 36 wont tillt the balance

HOWEVER, it would be foolush to assume that india wont get morr

We need to proactively think that india will have 70+ rafales with meteors
We need half of this number with similar kinetic missle..excellent networking (like gripen) and better sensor fusion

 

[ziaulislam]

There is nothing special about Rafale. You can do just so much while designing a 4th gen platform. You may call it 4.5 or 4+ Generation but at the end of day it is just a glorified 4th gen aircraft. India already had the capability with SU30s but they wanted to cutt us off from french market so made this purchase in a hurry by paying a hefty price. SU30 is more capable than Rafale in many aspects and could have been upgraded if to overcome any gaps in its capabilities. Unless India inducts a 5th gen fighter Pakistan can match anything in Indian Inventory. Indians as usual are trying to sell Gobar as gold so pay no heed to the foolS.

Su 30 didnt had aesa and electronic warfare was inferior to f16..afterall it suit was finalized in 1990s

It also lacked one main thing a high quality BVR

it also had poor integration issues

Comparing rafale to su30 is like comparing a truck with reliability issues to a mercedes

 

[ziaulislam]

We are likely india didnt scrap the inferior LCA and acquired gripen or we would have been in major trouble

 

[Sage]

To be honest Pakistan has no answer yet...Though Indians will take years to master the weapon and then pitch it against PAF....for good reasons...PAF has already stamped a fear gene in the mindset of IAF with the F-16. The losses of two IAF jets in the recent showdown is an example. However...PAF needs an immediate solution....J-20 could be a possible answer. We need to dump the west and US for any further sensitive machines...but at this point...Yes, IAF has the edge ...they have money bruhhhh....

 

[Signalian]

Very Comprehensive analysis by Vice Air chief Shahzad Chaudhry.

Interesting part is the J-20 bit, which is still evolving and has not taken a final shape, maybe from PAFs point of view so Project Azm could have fair amount of technical input and technology from development team of J-20 also.

 

[Signalian]

He didn't mention the SPECTRA EW suite which makes the Rafale so dangerous, no mention of the stand off weapons and other munitions either.

PAF has ECM/EW/ECCM capability already in different forms (aircrafts/pods etc) and probably doesn't consider EW suit of Rafale as a dangerous threat of a new sort aka game changer. Same for SOWs which India has already deployed on SU30.

 

[Signalian]

Mr Chaudhry mentioned radar but skipped mentioning the Rafale's AESA, which is also a big advantage.

He mentioned something more important - deployment of a weapon system in war and has hinted that PAF pilots already know weaknesses of Rafale.

 

[Pandora]

Su 30 didnt had aesa and electronic warfare was inferior to f16..afterall it suit was finalized in 1990s

It also lacked one main thing a high quality BVR

it also had poor integration issues

Comparing rafale to su30 is like comparing a truck with reliability issues to a mercedes

Our F16s also have Mechanical Pulse dopple radar which in every sense is inferior if not the same as PESA radars fielded by SU 30. Radar is not the reason why they were hammered on 27th Feb. It was mainly due to effective jamming capability. Also SU30 is a massive machiene hence giving off a very large RCS. It was a matter of who found who first otherwise our capabilities were evenly matched. No doubt our ECM/EW played a massive role as well. Rafale is being glorified over nothing and a simple radar replacement doesnt really provide an edge over other jets.

 

[CIA Mole]

Which is better, J10 or F16?

 

[araz]

It may not be game changing aircraft for Pakistan for sure.However, it adds up more teeths to the IAF's Inventory
such as Spectra,Meteor,Scalp and etc.However, i won't underestimate Jf-17 it is a cheaper platform which has formed backbone of the PAF.Being a lightweight platform it can be quickly built and deployed.The only disadvantage the jf-17 might have is shorter range,Payload and hardpoints.

Being a PAF specific aircraft it takes into account the fact that most IAF FoBs are within 250 miles. JFT range is adequate for what PAF needs it for. To suplement any lack we have IFR which is an advantage
The real advantage and one where you guys are constantly ignoring the JFT ALTHOUGH you have pointed it out, is the fact that it is our AC. We can upgrade it and build it in numbers. A 250million aircraft will become a white elephant and a loss of a couple will create more problems for IAF. People are talking about acquiring more Rafales but the cost factor will go against it. IAF has missed a huge trick in not inducting the Tejas in the late 90s and develop it block wise. It would have given you the economy of scales which you needed at a price you could afford. The other trick was to take over the assembly line of the M2Ks and work on it with a better engine. Now when you go on to induct the Tejas it is 20yrs too late and IAF will never have the confidence to deploy it in numbers.
A

 

[The Eagle]

Did I hear this right - that JF-17 is better than J-10 and China learned something from JF-17 which they used to improve the J-10?.. If true, Chinese must be quite stupid to not produce 100s of JFs for PLAF.

That is a cheap dig at any professional Air Force. J-10 was Chinese requirement and individual project whereas Thunder was PAF specific initiative by Pakistan. PAF has experience for flying top notch Falcons then Mirages as well as F-7s and then PLAAF had been good with flankers. During the project, indeed PAF shared decades of experience and set many goals for a bird like Thunder. That work benefited PLAAF as well and made many techs to be Incorporated in J-10 which was already there. PLAAF didn't need Thunder similarly to as why PAF didn't need J-10. Both birds are different but technology being shared accordingly. Chinese don't need Thunder for PLAAF and that has been discussed for 1000 times. If PLAAF needed, they can have it anytime but they do have J-10s. Such a dig is worthless to speak about. JF-17 Thunder is better than J-10 for PAF though, PLAAF can pursue the case as they deem fit.

The newer J-10C variant serves them well. On the same logic, IAF might be stupid enough to reject F-21? No. JF-17 Thunder incorporates many gadgets that already made their way to J-20 & J-10. Just because, PAF & PLAAF doesn't involve in marketing and public boasting; public is totally blind with information and sometimes don't even work hard enough to observe and connect the dots.

 

[ziaulislam]

Our F16s also have Mechanical Pulse dopple radar which in every sense is inferior if not the same as PESA radars fielded by SU 30. Radar is not the reason why they were hammered on 27th Feb. It was mainly due to effective jamming capability. Also SU30 is a massive machiene hence giving off a very large RCS. It was a matter of who found who first otherwise our capabilities were evenly matched. No doubt our ECM/EW played a massive role as well. Rafale is being glorified over nothing and a simple radar replacement doesnt really provide an edge over other jets.

Russians are decades bwhind in ECM and radar technology ..they cant even field an AESA even if they do i doubt the software (which is the essence of all modern radars) is no where near upto Par

The hupe of PESA that was artificial created (mini AWEC) was crushed in feburary

 

[Khan vilatey]

Very comprehensive ? This was a milquetoast analysis.

He didn't mention the SPECTRA EW suite which makes the Rafale so dangerous, no mention of the stand off weapons and other munitions either.

Also, there will be a LOT more than 36 by the end of it.

He also dismissed the J-10 as some sort of transitory temporary system for the PLAAF..

and the J-20s will not be for export, PAF will get the J-31.

how do you know that j-20 and j-31 would not be for Pakistan, maybe there are Pakistani pilots already training on the j-20, maybe they are part of the design team.......

the ew suite and aesa radar, IRST are all capabilities Jf-17 block 3 has. These are part of any 4.5 gen aircraft

When are the Thunder block 3s expected ?

Mr Chaudhry mentioned radar but skipped mentioning the Rafale's AESA, which is also a big advantage.

He did not mention a lot of things.....

What is the source for claiming there will be more than 36?

I believe that PAF's primary mission is simply protecting Pakistani airspace and for this, they have an adequate inventory. They do not see Rafale as a game changing threat but it does tilt the odds more into IAFs favor, gives the IAF a more capable asset for a range of missions.

To say it like it is, PAF would like to have more American fighters.. They are in love with the F-16s, but until such a deal materializes morale must be boosted with whatever is available. The JF-17 is certainly a good supporting platform for the price.

Did I hear this right - that JF-17 is better than J-10 and China learned something from JF-17 which they used to improve the J-10?.. If true, Chinese must be quite stupid to not produce 100s of JFs for PLAF.

yes you did, Jf-17 are the best jet for Pakistani needs. The same way j-10s are meant for PLAAF needs

kv

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

To be frank, if the PAF had gotten the Rafale instead of India, there'd be a dozen threads saying, "how the Rafale gives the PAF the edge..." etc.

We should change our mindset. By downplaying India's moves, we are giving our government and military decision-makers a pass. No more passes.

If we're too broke to afford new weapons, we need to then take those not doing their job (of growing the economy) accountable.

 

[Khan vilatey]

To be frank, if the PAF had gotten the Rafale instead of India, there'd be a dozen threads saying, "how the Rafale gives the PAF the edge..." etc.

We should change our mindset. By downplaying India's moves, we are giving our government and military decision-makers a pass. No more passes.

If we're too broke to afford new weapons, we need to then take those not doing their job (of growing the economy) accountable.

We were once considering it but it’s super duper expensive. 22 years ago when the PAF were considering the Rafael they would have been game changers now not so much, this is comparable to JF-17 block 3s and block 50 f-16s

if you disagree please enlighten us how this is a game changer?

KV