Rafale fighters may have to wait more to join IAF

[mkg00179504]

Err....who's paying for this larger deal? I wish people stop talking about some "larger deal", we are still arguing over the smaller one.... The cost of these planes is extremely prohibitive, too many people behave as if money is no object & throw out figures like 126, 189 etc. Nobody knows what the future will hold but to think of a larger deal now with the finances available would be laughable.

Finally a sane post. I don't know how people on PDF come up with numbers like 126,200,250. They think of it as bananas. The reality remains that even buying 36 fighters needs some serious negotiations and money.

 

[Last Samuri]

MKG

Finally a sane post. I don't know how people on PDF come up with numbers like 126,200,250. They think of it as bananas. The reality remains that even buying 36 fighters needs some serious negotiations and money.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/rafale-fighters-may-have-to-wait-more-to-join-iaf.397753/page-4#ixzz3lpuToLpJ

So india which has $10 for every $1 Pakistan will strugglke to buy 36 rafales

Yet PAF according to you arte buying just as many SU35 with one tenth the money of india

 

[dadeechi]

RAFALE deal is easily the biggest defence scandal in the History of India.

The whole drama stinks of crony capitalism.

1) First the original RFP was scrapped which mandates that the HAL should be the partner. A government entity means no kick backs.

2) Increases the made in France numbers from 18 to 36. More opportunity for kick backs. Throws some superlatives like induction in 2 years and same price as paid by French Air force etc. to divert the attention of the public and to project this as some kind of victory

3) Brings in a new RFP for 90 numbers for involvement of private partner (to replace original partner HAL). No prices for guessing who would be the partner..

4) All these negotiations and delays are nothing but smokescreen to show that a great deal is being negotiated.

RAFALE is a great plane but this deal is NOT.

 

[Thorough Pro]

You mean people who have been begging France for over a decade now? Contrary to the delusion of unlimited funds, the truth is india didn't even have the money to afford 40, let alone 126. Even the talk of 36 is now over a year old..keep counting and come back here after three years

BEGGARS CAN NEVER BE THE CHOOSERS

That's better than the idiots with no brains

What time scale are you talking about

ALL the dreams and fantasies of your compatriots
end up in dust because you have NO MONEY

 

[SR-91]

Err....who's paying for this larger deal? I wish people stop talking about some "larger deal", we are still arguing over the smaller one.... The cost of these planes is extremely prohibitive, too many people behave as if money is no object & throw out figures like 126, 189 etc. Nobody knows what the future will hold but to think of a larger deal now with the finances available would be laughable.

@Bang Galore


Expect a wise decision from this GOVT,(they are very patriotic and ECO wise)....IAF Chief already stated "72 minimum".............. I'm expecting at least 5 squadrons............ 2 on western borders and 3 to 4 on north eastern borders.

 

[knight11]

RAFALE deal is easily the biggest defence scandal in the History of India.

The whole drama stinks of crony capitalism.

1) First the original RFP was scrapped which mandates that the HAL should be the partner. A government entity means no kick backs.

2) Increases the made in France numbers from 18 to 36. More opportunity for kick backs. Throws some superlatives like induction in 2 years and same price as paid by French Air force etc. to divert the attention of the public and to project this as some kind of victory

3) Brings in a new RFP for 90 numbers for involvement of private partner (to replace original partner HAL). No prices for guessing who would be the partner..

4) All these negotiations and delays are nothing but smokescreen to show that a great deal is being negotiated.

RAFALE is a great plane but this deal is NOT.

Let me tell you the real great defence Scandal to be discovered. It was in 80s when IAF wanted to induct mirrage 2000H in large no. and presented her requirement but our congress govt with unknown reason goes for Mig29 BN, MIG 27MF, Mig 23. Only to be discovered that the russian planes though cheaper as compared to french turns out to be too costly to be operated and maintained. When mirrage 2000H was coming wiht FBW, and FADEEC for reliable engine control our MIG 29BN was not having anything like that and what it was having a left SPANNER in its fuselarge telling the story of the Quality control of the Russian technicians and various crashes which tell the story to discovered about its faulty fuel pump later. Our former Air Chief Tipnis was very close to open the mouth about this when he said that he would like to have the multirole fighter like mirrage 2000 rather been having the role specific fighter planes which increases the operating cost, training, and maintainance nightmare for so many different fighter jets. Now what was the motive of the Congress UPA govt to go in different way rather that what was proposed by IAF at that time. It would have been wonder if mirrage 2000H would have been accquired in large number say 250 or 200 which can be upgraded to 2009 std which is hapening right now. Same with the T-90 when they were ordered in so high 1000 in number at almost get us bankrupt instead of going for indigenous Arjun only to be discovered later during test that the former is superior.

To cut the crap and in present situation the govt BJP or namo is doing the right by scrapping the MMRCA deal and going with G-G deal which is needed for much faster acquisition of the Rafale 36 + 36 nos in fly away condition and money saving to be pumped in Tejas programme. The deal is for 189 fighter plane now and not for 126 and the rest will be assembled in India from the kits. And our desi journalist with great defense knowledge loves to publish each and every sniff of the parties in the negotiation been done. Rest assure the govt is in right track and the Rafale is going to be inducted in large number and also it is not meant for the Pakistan rather deterance against Plaaf.

You mean people who have been begging France for over a decade now? Contrary to the delusion of unlimited funds, the truth is india didn't even have the money to afford 40, let alone 126. Even the talk of 36 is now over a year old..keep counting and come back here after three years




That's better than the idiots with no brains

There is wise saying that if you are an idiot better keep mouth shut rather that speak and give the proof of the same

 

[Kaniska]

The 36 Rafale fighters which the Modi Government had decided to purchase off the shelf from France, may take some more time to fly into the country despite the Defence Ministry giving a go ahead to the Defence Acquisition Committee to expedite the negotiations.

”There are still so many nitty gritties of the deal which needed to be sorted out, so no timeline could be given,” sources in the French Embassy said here today.

That was the reason that the proposed stopover-visit of the Defence Minister of France was shelved at the last moment as the stage that would require his presence had not been reached yet.

According to sources, it is the offset clause over which the French are feeling uncomfortable

Under the off-set policy, first introduced as part of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) of 2005, a foreign company has to invest back a part of the deal into India.

But the 50 per cent offset clause was part of the now scrapped tender for 126 Multi role Combat Aircraft, most of which were to be built in India by Hindustan Aeronautics.

However, the negotiations could not make much progress due to the differences overtransfer of technology and price issues, which finally led the Government to go in forpurchase of a smaller scale.

The decision to buy off the shelf was taken as a take away of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April this year. Moreover, the India Air Force was in dire need of theseaircraft as its strength had been depleting over the years with older aircraft being grounded without the new coming to replace them.

Rafale fighters may have to wait more to join IAF - IBC World News

Somehow i am getting the feeling that ultimately India will end up at Russian fighter..France deal is not going through, courtesy various lobby group from India on behalf of Russia and then Russian vibe that they are ready to offer SU 35 to Pakistan is just an pressure tactics to India or it may be real too....At the end of the day, i guess something is not good from Indian side...We can console whatever we wish, but if to make a deal it takes 15 year, then it is better not to go though such acquisition process...It is a sham and corrupt process where there is no end to it..Its like Ekta Kapoor serial kind of thing..

 

[knight11]

Somehow i am getting the feeling that ultimately India will end up at Russian fighter..France deal is not going through, courtesy various lobby group from India on behalf of Russia and then Russian vibe that they are ready to offer SU 35 to Pakistan is just an pressure tactics to India or it may be real too....At the end of the day, i guess something is not good from Indian side...We can console whatever we wish, but if to make a deal it takes 15 year, then it is better not to go though such acquisition process...It is a sham and corrupt process where there is no end to it..Its like Ekta Kapoor serial kind of thing..

Read my above post

 

[dadeechi]

Let me tell you the real great defence Scandal to be discovered. It was in 80s when IAF wanted to induct mirrage 2000H in large no. and presented her requirement but our congress govt with unknown reason goes for Mig29 BN, MIG 27MF, Mig 23. Only to be discovered that the russian planes though cheaper as compared to french turns out to be too costly to be operated and maintained. When mirrage 2000H was coming wiht FBW, and FADEEC for reliable engine control our MIG 29BN was not having anything like that and what it was having a left SPANNER in its fuselarge telling the story of the Quality control of the Russian technicians and various crashes which tell the story to discovered about its faulty fuel pump later. Our former Air Chief Tipnis was very close to open the mouth about this when he said that he would like to have the multirole fighter like mirrage 2000 rather been having the role specific fighter planes which increases the operating cost, training, and maintainance nightmare for so many different fighter jets. Now what was the motive of the Congress UPA govt to go in different way rather that what was proposed by IAF at that time. It would have been wonder if mirrage 2000H would have been accquired in large number say 250 or 200 which can be upgraded to 2009 std which is hapening right now. Same with the T-90 when they were ordered in so high 1000 in number at almost get us bankrupt instead of going for indigenous Arjun only to be discovered later during test that the former is superior.

To cut the crap and in present situation the govt BJP or namo is doing the right by scrapping the MMRCA deal and going with G-G deal which is needed for much faster acquisition of the Rafale 36 + 36 nos in fly away condition and money saving to be pumped in Tejas programme. The deal is for 189 fighter plane now and not for 126 and the rest will be assembled in India from the kits. And our desi journalist with great defense knowledge loves to publish each and every sniff of the parties in the negotiation been done. Rest assure the govt is in right track and the Rafale is going to be inducted in large number and also it is not meant for the Pakistan rather deterance against Plaaf.



There is wise saying that if you are an idiot better keep mouth shut rather that speak and give the proof of the same

I do not carry water for any of these political parties and I am least interested in tu tu main main drama between political parties. let all of them down the drain, if it is in the interest of the country. Let me ask few questions


1) What is the cost of upgrade for MIG-29 vs Mirage 2000? Who is to be blamed?

2) When France was ready to move the entire production to Mirage 2000, why didn't India take the offer? Who is to be blamed?

3) If goverment-to-government (G2G) deal is the best option, why are we not going for G2G deal for 126 (or 189) planes. Why do need a new RFP for 90?

4) Knowing that T90 is piece of junk when compared to Arjun, why are we now in talks for T90MS?

5) Why did Reliance (RIL) Took Over Network18 which owns TV channels (including CNBC TV18, CNN-IBN, CNN Awaz), websites (firstpost.com, moneycontrol.com), magazines (including the license for Forbes India), entertainment channel (Colors, MTV and Homeshop Entertainment) among other businesses on the same day when the current government took power

6) Why did Reliance Infra buy Pipavav Defence?

 

[airmarshal]

Yep its 189 total in number with upto 36+36 in flyaway and rest by HAL.


Picture speaks better than words but still that would be over kill

BEGGARS CAN NEVER BE THE CHOOSERS

But then beggars who all of a sudden have the money become too nitpicking and discriminatory which does not suit their heritage or history.

For 36 planes, you want the offset clause?!!! I mean come down from your high pedestal. This Rafale deal is becoming a joke.

Egypt started the deal last year and is already flying 3 Rafales out of 24. India, with bigger finances and more resources is acting smart and behaving like a newly rich beggar acting high class.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Exactly, and you should have kept quite.

Let me tell you the real great defence Scandal to be discovered. It was in 80s when IAF wanted to induct mirrage 2000H in large no. and presented her requirement but our congress govt with unknown reason goes for Mig29 BN, MIG 27MF, Mig 23. Only to be discovered that the russian planes though cheaper as compared to french turns out to be too costly to be operated and maintained. When mirrage 2000H was coming wiht FBW, and FADEEC for reliable engine control our MIG 29BN was not having anything like that and what it was having a left SPANNER in its fuselarge telling the story of the Quality control of the Russian technicians and various crashes which tell the story to discovered about its faulty fuel pump later. Our former Air Chief Tipnis was very close to open the mouth about this when he said that he would like to have the multirole fighter like mirrage 2000 rather been having the role specific fighter planes which increases the operating cost, training, and maintainance nightmare for so many different fighter jets. Now what was the motive of the Congress UPA govt to go in different way rather that what was proposed by IAF at that time. It would have been wonder if mirrage 2000H would have been accquired in large number say 250 or 200 which can be upgraded to 2009 std which is hapening right now. Same with the T-90 when they were ordered in so high 1000 in number at almost get us bankrupt instead of going for indigenous Arjun only to be discovered later during test that the former is superior.

To cut the crap and in present situation the govt BJP or namo is doing the right by scrapping the MMRCA deal and going with G-G deal which is needed for much faster acquisition of the Rafale 36 + 36 nos in fly away condition and money saving to be pumped in Tejas programme. The deal is for 189 fighter plane now and not for 126 and the rest will be assembled in India from the kits. And our desi journalist with great defense knowledge loves to publish each and every sniff of the parties in the negotiation been done. Rest assure the govt is in right track and the Rafale is going to be inducted in large number and also it is not meant for the Pakistan rather deterance against Plaaf.



There is wise saying that if you are an idiot better keep mouth shut rather that speak and give the proof of the same

 

[knight11]

I do not carry water for any of these political parties and I am least interested in tu tu main main drama between political parties. let all of them down the drain, if it is in the interest of the country. Let me ask few questions


1) What is the cost of upgrade for MIG-29 vs Mirage 2000? Who is to be blamed?

2) When France was ready to move the entire production to Mirage 2000, why didn't India take the offer? Who is to be blamed?

3) If goverment-to-government (G2G) deal is the best option, why are we not going for G2G deal for 126 (or 189) planes. Why do need a new RFP for 90?

4) Knowing that T90 is piece of junk when compared to Arjun, why are we now in talks for T90MS?

5) Why did Reliance (RIL) Took Over Network18 which owns TV channels (including CNBC TV18, CNN-IBN, CNN Awaz), websites (firstpost.com, moneycontrol.com), magazines (including the license for Forbes India), entertainment channel (Colors, MTV and Homeshop Entertainment) among other businesses on the same day when the current government took power

6) Why did Reliance Infra buy Pipavav Defence?

Dear Dadeechi, the decision for defense purchase is made by the political leadership and yes they ask the military for their requirement and priority. IAF had asked for 126 mirage 2000 but our RM decided to open the tender in which six contender participated. Now there is a line which has to be made between the civil political leadership which will make the final decision, cost, negotiation which is made with political benefits, financial conditions etc, and the military leadership that draft the requirement, tests, and priority and their decision depends on the shortfall, requirement, enemy capability accessing etc. Now if you want to give the military whole-sole power for the deal than
IAF could demand F22 also. So there should be some mechanism for this i.e military drafting the requirement and political leadership makes the deal. Now if the Military is not happy or they are forced something else then they should ask thru proper channel from the govt. and not thru the blogs or the forum and the govt. should be force to answer the reason for the same. The IAF's goal was to test all the aircraft and find out which was the best one suited to its needs. Another truth is that none of the aircraft - even the Rafale and the Eurofighter - met all the parameters that the IAF wanted. The Eurocanards were the closest and thus by virtue of merit, they were selected to move on to the next stage which was cost negotiation, in which the IAF plays no part whatsoever.

Now this is my view and you might or might not like that but whatever the bluff have been put in the history should be studied and take the lessons from them.

1. Comparing the cost of the upgrade cost of mig29 and mirage 2000 will not take us anywhere and since both are different planes, there are different variable like avionics, fireand control system upgrade, engine upgrade, strengthening of airframe, sensors etc do you really believe all are same. If the cost of upgrade of mirage2000 is mammoth its called the negotiation and obviously dasault wants the bigger chunk and govt would like to save each and every penny. By the way there was another option for that Israel who was ready to carry out the upgradation.

2. Do you really know all the ifs and buts of dassault for moving the entire mirage line to India ?? Even I wonder sometime that India have lost the opportunity for rejecting that offer but there are many people who will say the opposite. If the govt. is going to listen to everyone that no decision could be made

3. 36 fly away for quick delivery for the sinking squadron number of IAF. G-G deal is always better for the cost to be the lowest but if you want to give some pie to your indigenous industry than the other route.

4. For T-90 the one that could answer the best was our former late PM and whose legacy is carried by his son who was away for 3 month deep meditation on some unknown place. T-90 was inducted with many deficiency which our forces wants to rectify with T-90MS and upgrades.

5. Reliance ? you know I never like it nor I like when she got the mumbai metro project: Why wouldn't Delhi Metro with experience under her belt? What reliance did they consult the chinese for supplying the metro coaches and engines, hired engineers and experts and voila Mumbai Metro. Even a man money but with no knowledge or experience could start Kingfisher Airlines only thing he have to do is to hire the pilots, technicians, personals, beutiful hostess and hire/leased aircraft. If you are searching for the answer than the answer is MONEY.

6. MONEY more MONEY

 

[dadeechi]

Dear Dadeechi, the decision for defense purchase is made by the political leadership and yes they ask the military for their requirement and priority. IAF had asked for 126 mirage 2000 but our RM decided to open the tender in which six contender participated. Now there is a line which has to be made between the civil political leadership which will make the final decision, cost, negotiation which is made with political benefits, financial conditions etc, and the military leadership that draft the requirement, tests, and priority and their decision depends on the shortfall, requirement, enemy capability accessing etc. Now if you want to give the military whole-sole power for the deal than
IAF could demand F22 also. So there should be some mechanism for this i.e military drafting the requirement and political leadership makes the deal. Now if the Military is not happy or they are forced something else then they should ask thru proper channel from the govt. and not thru the blogs or the forum and the govt. should be force to answer the reason for the same. The IAF's goal was to test all the aircraft and find out which was the best one suited to its needs. Another truth is that none of the aircraft - even the Rafale and the Eurofighter - met all the parameters that the IAF wanted. The Eurocanards were the closest and thus by virtue of merit, they were selected to move on to the next stage which was cost negotiation, in which the IAF plays no part whatsoever.

Now this is my view and you might or might not like that but whatever the bluff have been put in the history should be studied and take the lessons from them.

1. Comparing the cost of the upgrade cost of mig29 and mirage 2000 will not take us anywhere and since both are different planes, there are different variable like avionics, fireand control system upgrade, engine upgrade, strengthening of airframe, sensors etc do you really believe all are same. If the cost of upgrade of mirage2000 is mammoth its called the negotiation and obviously dasault wants the bigger chunk and govt would like to save each and every penny. By the way there was another option for that Israel who was ready to carry out the upgradation.

2. Do you really know all the ifs and buts of dassault for moving the entire mirage line to India ?? Even I wonder sometime that India have lost the opportunity for rejecting that offer but there are many people who will say the opposite. If the govt. is going to listen to everyone that no decision could be made

3. 36 fly away for quick delivery for the sinking squadron number of IAF. G-G deal is always better for the cost to be the lowest but if you want to give some pie to your indigenous industry than the other route.

4. For T-90 the one that could answer the best was our former late PM and whose legacy is carried by his son who was away for 3 month deep meditation on some unknown place. T-90 was inducted with many deficiency which our forces wants to rectify with T-90MS and upgrades.

5. Reliance ? you know I never like it nor I like when she got the mumbai metro project: Why wouldn't Delhi Metro with experience under her belt? What reliance did they consult the chinese for supplying the metro coaches and engines, hired engineers and experts and voila Mumbai Metro. Even a man money but with no knowledge or experience could start Kingfisher Airlines only thing he have to do is to hire the pilots, technicians, personals, beutiful hostess and hire/leased aircraft. If you are searching for the answer than the answer is MONEY.

6. MONEY more MONEY

Crony capitalism privatizes profits and socializes losses while absolute power corrupts absolutely and India has this deadly combo to deal with...