Rafale fighter Jet deal in trouble: Here’s why French govt is shirking liability

[Stephen Cohen]

I understood what you were doing there, but there really isn't any systemic 'mismanagement' going on here. My only grouse is your use of the word 'mismanagement'.

A deal going back to the drawing board is very common as far as imports are concerned. Like the Canadians talking about canceling the F-35, they might change their mind again. Or the Swiss canceling their Gripen deal only to sign a more expensive deal in the near future. So this is just the natural way these things flow. Is it systemic? Yes. Is it mismanagement? No. Dealing with democracies and multiple parties is much harder than dealing with oil monarchies and oligarchies. The slow and cumbersome process of democracies will always appear to look like mismanagement.

Generally, people are quick to blame the Indian govt even though the Indian govt is the only govt that signs some of the biggest import deals every year. Our procedures can be better, but it would be wrong to say they are mismanaged. If they were mismanaged, nothing would work.

Even if the deal fails, it will have served multiple purposes. The Indian govt's maneuvers are always more complex than can be seen with the eyes.

Can't we get 54 planes just off the shelf and forget about everything else

 

[Taygibay]

Dealing with democracies and multiple parties is much harder than dealing with oil monarchies and oligarchies.

Absolutely not necessarily, come on!

Check how quick we bought our Reapers or our last C-130s just for fun!
Of course, it's FMS but darn it went quick! And buying Lakotas for the US
Army wasn't a years long process either. They won the contest in June ...
2006, were awarded the contract in October & the first helo was delivered
in December ... still 2006!

Between sensible democracies, deals go as fast as trust and cash allows!

With that, I will reactivate my bio filter before saying something regrettable

like how Indian fanboys are the overly attached neurotic controlling girlfriends from hell of the mil Internet.​

and come back to bite into excuses to rational Indian friends and women!

Tshaow, have fun, no hard feelings, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

Rockstar, I'M thinking holistic ... as in all the GoI man-hours invested,
IAF, MD, PM, all concerned offices of all concerned Ministries and all
the assorted contracts to helpers and beggars along the way, all of it!

If Jamwal's thinks it was unnecessary or if the deal doesn't go through,
all has been wasted. Probably the cost of corruption over 10 years for
a small-sized impoverished African nation, sumthing staggering!
Even if everyone played it clean, by pure virtue of size and duration.

$ = MT2 if you will allow me to paraphrase?

( as middle term for Mass of deal, the latter for Time squared and the former ... well, you know! )

Those blunders when they occur have a price that no supporter should accept.

Good day, Tay.

I have never disagreed with everything you told the other guy. Nobody likes wasting time. I just objected to your use of the word mismanagement. And now, 'corruption'. A deal's failure is not mismanagement.

Anyway, there have been plenty of times where the govt has spent countless hours in negotiations and deals were canceled for one reason or another. It is an acceptable aspect of dealing with other countries, at least Indians have learned to live with that. The most recent example has been the cancellation of the MRTT after many years of negotiations. The same with the helicopter tenders. Doing it right or getting a better deal is more important.

You guys have been in this situation. Do you regret having wasted time negotiating with the Europeans over the Typhoon and quit the program? I wouldn't called that mismanagement. Nor would I accuse the Europeans and the French of corruption.

 

[randomradio]

Absolutely not necessarily, come on!

Check how quick we bought our Reapers or our last C-130s just for fun!
Of course, it's FMS but darn it went quick! And buying Lakotas for the US
Army wasn't a years long process either. They won the contest in June ...
2006, were awarded the contract in October & the first helo was delivered
in December ... still 2006!

Between sensible democracies, deals go as fast as trust and cash allows!

With that, I will reactivate my bio filter before saying something regrettable

like how Indian fanboys are the overly attached neurotic controlling girlfriends from hell of the mil Internet.​

and come back to bite into excuses to rational Indian friends and women!

Tshaow, have fun, no hard feelings, Tay.

The FMS deals are one sided deals. The US gives the price and the buyer accepts. If the Rafale deal was the same, then we would have said yes to every little price Dassault threw at us without any negotiation, then we would have signed the deal years ago. There is nothing sensible in the American FMS. Our C-17, C-130 and P-8I deals were really fast too.

Look at how long the Apache and Chinook deals took. We asked for extensions 10 times and we were given extensions 10 times. It took us far more than a year after negotiations were complete to approve the deals. And this wasn't FMS.

FMS doesn't provide a reasonable experience when buying arms. It's like going to a supermarket, you can't negotiate the price.

Can't we get 54 planes just off the shelf and forget about everything else

Yes, we can. IAF wanted to add 44 more to the deal. But the current arrangement is better. Buy 36 from France, possibly 18 more in case of delays. And manufacture the remaining 90 in India.

The actual requirement for Rafale is far more than 200 if you include IN's requirement also. Make in India is the obvious choice.

 

[Dr Gupta]

look like this shit is not gonna over soon

It will be signed on a auspicious date when Baba Ramdev approves it

I've never understood India's pursuit of Rafale. Their press and government keeps touting the overwhelming superiority of their Su-30MKI's and pilots over Western fighters like Typhoon, (equal to Rafale). They already have production of the Su's and they are nearly half the cost...so why spend more money, have one more AC type to train and maintain, instead of just sticking to the "superior" Su?

Many reasons such as AESA, other weaponry, Maintenance issues, Rafale is also capable in A2G ops etc

 

[mike2000 is back]

The hawks procurement was like the gestation (pregnancy) period of an elephant

IF you multiply by 10 each of the above gestation period, you will arrive at MOD gestation period for procurement

Rafale is still in the Whale Gestation period analogy as per the figure.. Its still mid pregnancy at 14+ years. Thats just years or divide by 10 and convert into days its just around 515 odd days if we have to compare to the pictorial. By December 2016 it will move to Elephant gestation period.

@mike2000 is back @Vauban

LMAO.
Funny, but it fits perfectly.However, let's just hope this Whale gestation deal wont abort its baby.
France needs to take it very VERY slow with India .....be like....

 

[Taygibay]

Here's what is at dis-play here :

Including a couple full belly full back passes over the crowd.
Warning to fanboys : don't compare to foreign outing of local attempts!

Tay.

 

[airmarshal]

Its interesting Pakistan has shown interest in French jets. There was a news story couple of days ago regarding replacement of old PAF jets by 2020.

Do insiders know whats being gradually released in public? That this deal between IAF and Dassault is not going to go through! I m just wondering.

However, France's rafale deal seems to be even more complex. Hopefully you will beat our 20 years record with India.

 

[wiseone2]

I Say Pak should start its interest for Rafale and club its deal with UAE ones so we can get good deal i say 36 Rafale Plus Maintenance contract for all ME operators for Rafale .Thats way we can significant reduce our cost for procurement and logistics (by offering services)

36 Rafales will cost you 11 billion euros

 

[wiseone2]

Its interesting Pakistan has shown interest in French jets. There was a news story couple of days ago regarding replacement of old PAF jets by 2020.

Do insiders know whats being gradually released in public? That this deal between IAF and Dassault is not going to go through! I m just wondering.

seriously where are going to get the money for 40 Rafale ??

 

[Beast]

Its interesting Pakistan has shown interest in French jets. There was a news story couple of days ago regarding replacement of old PAF jets by 2020.

Do insiders know whats being gradually released in public? That this deal between IAF and Dassault is not going to go through! I m just wondering.

It will never go thru, just talk only. Pakistan will continue stick with Chinese supply fighter jets.

 

[zebra7]

I've never understood India's pursuit of Rafale. Their press and government keeps touting the overwhelming superiority of their Su-30MKI's and pilots over Western fighters like Typhoon, (equal to Rafale). They already have production of the Su's and they are nearly half the cost...so why spend more money, have one more AC type to train and maintain, instead of just sticking to the "superior" Su?

Have explained it many times. The Su 30MKI is an Airsuperiority Combat aircraft, and its Airframe is never certified for the Low level, terrain hugging, terrain following flight profile, for which the IAF need for a dedicated Deep Strike Combat plane which Rafale have.

It will never go thru, just talk only. Pakistan will continue stick with Chinese supply fighter jets.

Pakistani Claims as JV and their share as 59%, how can you say Chinese Supply fighter Jets PPPP