Rafale fighter Jet deal in trouble: Here’s why French govt is shirking liability

[Mrc]

I've never understood India's pursuit of Rafale. Their press and government keeps touting the overwhelming superiority of their Su-30MKI's and pilots over Western fighters like Typhoon, (equal to Rafale). They already have production of the Su's and they are nearly half the cost...so why spend more money, have one more AC type to train and maintain, instead of just sticking to the "superior" Su?

caz in the era of stealth and low observability, mki has the largest RCS flying

 

[C130]

like I said in some other Rafael threads... it's France and Dassualt that has the leverage now.

they are going to get every penny they can out of this deal.

caz in the era of stealth and low observability, mki has the largest RCS flying

with the right ECM systems you'll be just fine no matter how large your aircraft is

Khibiny

 

[volatile]

I Say Pak should start its interest for Rafale and club its deal with UAE ones so we can get good deal i say 36 Rafale Plus Maintenance contract for all ME operators for Rafale .Thats way we can significant reduce our cost for procurement and logistics (by offering services)

 

[mike2000 is back]

LOL @Vauban , @Taygibay . The day your country finalizes this now defunct 'mother of all defence deals', will be like a miracle. .

Anyway, your rafale is having more and more potential customers with each passing year. So amy little leverage India think they might have will keep dissapearing with each passing year.
It wwill soon be the Granny of all defence deals.

Good luck to France with this deal.

 

[Vergennes]

look like this shit is not gonna over soon

Boring Boring Boring！！！

I've never understood India's pursuit of Rafale. Their press and government keeps touting the overwhelming superiority of their Su-30MKI's and pilots over Western fighters like Typhoon, (equal to Rafale). They already have production of the Su's and they are nearly half the cost...so why spend more money, have one more AC type to train and maintain, instead of just sticking to the "superior" Su?

We are always told that you must be very patient with India. (Surprised nobody jumped under the bus. Lol.)

LOL @Vauban , @Taygibay . The day your country finalizes this now defunct 'mother of all defence deals', will be like a miracle. .

Anyway, your rafale is having more and more potential customers with each passing year. So amy little leverage India think they might have will keep dissapearing with each passing year.
It iwll soon be the Granny of all defence deals.

Good luck to France with this deal.

How many years it took for the Hawk contract to be signed ? 22 years ?

 

[Jamwal's]

An useless purchase right from the start.

 

[mike2000 is back]

We are always told that you must be very patient with India. (Surprised nobody jumped under the bus. Lol.)



How many years it took for the Hawk contract to be signed ? 22 years ?

Lool......hmmmm.......must confess you got me there.
Yes indeed, It was ONE of the most protracted procurements in India's history, with over 2 decades having elapsed between Indias initial interest by India in our hawks and the contract signing in 2004. Lol

But hey, at least the deal was finally signed, and we were in no hurry either since our hawks were(and are still) selling like hot cakes all over the world( with over 500 hawks sold overseas as of then, its over 800 today). So we made sure we signed the best deal for our defence companies. . Today, a total of 123 aircraft have been ordered by the Indian Air Force and 17 by the Indian Navy. Plus, an additional order of 20 aircraft is was recently signed and finslised.

However, France's rafale deal seems to be even more complex. Hopefully you will beat our 20 years record with India.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

The hawks procurement was like the gestation (pregnancy) period of an elephant

IF you multiply by 10 each of the above gestation period, you will arrive at MOD gestation period for procurement

Rafale is still in the Whale Gestation period analogy as per the figure.. Its still mid pregnancy at 14+ years. Thats just years or divide by 10 and convert into days its just around 515 odd days if we have to compare to the pictorial. By December 2016 it will move to Elephant gestation period.

@mike2000 is back @Vauban

 

[graphican]

The hawks procurement was like the gestation (pregnancy) period of an elephant

IF you multiply by 10 each of the above gestation period, you will arrive at MOD gestation period for procurement

Rafale is still in the Whale Gestation period analogy as per the figure.. Its still mid pregnancy at 14+ years. Thats just years or divide by 10 and convert into days its just around 515 odd days if we have to compare to the pictorial. By December 2016 it will move to Elephant gestation period.

@mike2000 is back @Vauban

For all above animals, you know that after x number of days, they will conceive while for India, you never know.

For India, an example like following will fit.

If you cannot buy an egg for 1IN rupee, how much would it cost to buy 36 of those?

 

[Taygibay]

^^^ Math 101, huh ?

An useless purchase right from the start.

My poor man, if you believe that, I'm very sorry for you.
As I explained many times, these deals cost a lot of money.
Even if the said deal finally died of what seems like a long illness,
the lakh crores spent in evaluation and government offices are gone.

For nothing!
​

That is what I so often try to convey : that even placing myself in your shoes,
even forgetting the fact that the Rafale is French or the need for the plane itself,
in the end, the only thing plain by now is severe and systemic mismanagement.

That's plane and simple!

I would really anger me so that I empathize wholeheartedly, again sorry, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

I've never understood India's pursuit of Rafale. Their press and government keeps touting the overwhelming superiority of their Su-30MKI's and pilots over Western fighters like Typhoon, (equal to Rafale). They already have production of the Su's and they are nearly half the cost...so why spend more money, have one more AC type to train and maintain, instead of just sticking to the "superior" Su?

In terms of technology and capability, Rafale is a 5th gen aircraft even though it does not have the traditional shaping and weapons bays. It is far superior to the Su-30 as it is now.

And it has a lot of other cost and maintenance advantages since it is a small fighter.

And the IAF wanted to diversify.

Just think about it. Once this deal gets closed, half of defense forums would close their shop due to drop in website hits.

That's cool. There's a second MMRCA deal anyway. And that could take two or three years.

the only thing plain by now is severe and systemic mismanagement.

The contract negotiations started in May, 2015. It may be signed before April is over. Not many deals around that are signed that quickly.

 

[Taygibay]

The contract negotiations started in May, 2015. It may be signed before April is over. Not many deals around that are signed that quickly.

You really have a problem with context, man!
I was answering a person that believes that it was : A. useless purchase right from the start.

I trust he means more than the 36GtoG deal.
Like he would have played it on another MMRCA contender or foregone the comp altogether
maybe with a two-tiered IAF MKI-LCA, who knows?

In addition, this would not be the only occurrence of an interrupted deal.
So yeah, sorry for you too but systemic!

Good day, Tay.

 

[rockstarIN]

^^^ Math 101, huh ?



the lakh crores spent in evaluation and government offices are gone.

For nothing!​

.

Did we paid to MMRCA contenders for evaluation process. Its a sales pitch and such expenses should have borne by the contenders.

@PARIKRAMA , @Abingdonboy

 

[randomradio]

You really have a problem with context, man!
I was answering a person that believes that it was : A. useless purchase right from the start.

I trust he means more than the 36GtoG deal.
Like he would have played it on another MMRCA contender or foregone the comp altogether
maybe with a two-tiered IAF MKI-LCA, who knows?

In addition, this would not be the only occurrence of an interrupted deal.
So yeah, sorry for you too but systemic!

Good day, Tay.

I understood what you were doing there, but there really isn't any systemic 'mismanagement' going on here. My only grouse is your use of the word 'mismanagement'.

A deal going back to the drawing board is very common as far as imports are concerned. Like the Canadians talking about canceling the F-35, they might change their mind again. Or the Swiss canceling their Gripen deal only to sign a more expensive deal in the near future. So this is just the natural way these things flow. Is it systemic? Yes. Is it mismanagement? No. Dealing with democracies and multiple parties is much harder than dealing with oil monarchies and oligarchies. The slow and cumbersome process of democracies will always appear to look like mismanagement.

Generally, people are quick to blame the Indian govt even though the Indian govt is the only govt that signs some of the biggest import deals every year. Our procedures can be better, but it would be wrong to say they are mismanaged. If they were mismanaged, nothing would work.

Even if the deal fails, it will have served multiple purposes. The Indian govt's maneuvers are always more complex than can be seen with the eyes.

 

[Taygibay]

Rockstar, I'M thinking holistic ... as in all the GoI man-hours invested,
IAF, MD, PM, all concerned offices of all concerned Ministries and all
the assorted contracts to helpers and beggars along the way, all of it!

If Jamwal's thinks it was unnecessary or if the deal doesn't go through,
all has been wasted. Probably the cost of corruption over 10 years for
a small-sized impoverished African nation, sumthing staggering!
Even if everyone played it clean, by pure virtue of size and duration.

$ = MT2 if you will allow me to paraphrase?

( as middle term for Mass of deal, the latter for Time squared and the former ... well, you know! )

Those blunders when they occur have a price that no supporter should accept.

Good day, Tay.