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RAF Challenge Indian Air Force 'Whitewash' Claims

I stand by my statement

I am NOT taking the bait :-)
Ok, prove it based on fighter performance metrics vis a vis year of production, avionics, turning rates and climb rates.. and so on. If you cannot prove it.. you can voluntarily leave this thread.

Flanker fury: How the Sukhois blanked the Typhoons 12-0 in British skies | Russia & India Report

The Sukhoi Flanker has yet again emerged as the unchallenged wolf of the skies. During the 10-day Indradhanush exercise held in July in Lincolnshire, UK, Indian Air Force pilots flying the Su-30MKI humiliated the top aces of the RAF, blanking their latest Eurofighter Typhoon jets 12-0.

The IAF Sukhois were reportedly able to defeat the Typhoons not only in one-on-one combat, but also in situations where one IAF pilot was pitted against two Typhoons. Besides clobbering the RAF during within visual range (WVR) dogfights, the Sukhois also held an edge over the British jets in beyond visual range (BVR) combat though not in as dominating a manner.



Aviation International News learns from informed sources with knowledge of the exercise that “in close combat, the thrust vector control on the heavier Flankers more than compensated for the greater thrust-to-weight ratio of the Typhoon”.

Experienced air combat analyst Vishnu Som explains: “The first week of the exercises pitted the Su-30 in a series of aerial dogfight scenarios. First, there were 1 v 1 encounters, where a single jet of each type engaged each other in WVR combat, firing simulated missiles to a range of two miles. The exercises progressed to 2 v 2 engagements with two Eurofighters taking on two Su-30s and 2 v 1 exercises where two Sukhois took on a single Typhoon and vice versa. Notably, in the exercise where a lone Su-30 was engaged by two Typhoons, the IAF jet emerged the victor 'shooting' down both 'enemy' jets.”

The Flanker’s legendary super-maneuverability is a key reason why it emerged out of the knife fight unscathed. “In all dog fighting exercises, IAF Sukhois were able to turn sharply into the extremely agile Typhoons using their thrust-vectored engines to keep the RAF jets locked in their sights,” Som writes.

Also, the Su-30's advanced Infrared Search and Track System (IRST), a passive sensor, which cannot be tracked, proved to be a distinct advantage for the IAF's pilots in close-combat maneuvering. “Both the IAF and RAF used the full capabilities of their onboard radars, albeit in training mode, which meant actual radar frequencies used in combat conditions were never exposed for confidentiality reasons. However, the detection ranges of the radars of both aircraft were not curtailed per se. This was air combat as close to the real thing as possible.”

Interestingly, while the UK’s Independent says the British deployed the “cream of the RAF”, Som says “the IAF did not deploy any senior pilots serving with its elite Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment (TACDE)”.

British: Still colonial?

Dismissing the Indian claims as “comical”, an RAF source told the Independent that they were clearly designed for the “domestic audience”. The source added: “There must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India, as the headlines of the Indian press bear no relation to the results of the tactical scenarios completed on the exercise in any shape or form.”

The 12-0 score must have stung real bad considering the British are yet to jettison their colonial attitudes towards former subjects, who are now wealthier and stronger, possessing a much larger military.

Now compare the RAF’s childish reaction to the USAF’s more balanced approach in the aftermath of their humiliation by the IAF in the Cope India air combat exercises held in 2004 and 2005.

Cope India 04 made headlines worldwide when Indian pilots flying upgraded – but 30 year old – MiG-21s and the comparatively less advanced Su-30MKs defeated the USAF’s F-15 Eagles 9-1. Here’s what USAF Colonel Greg Newbech said after the exercise: “What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home.”

The following year, at Cope India 2005, the USAF deployed several F-16s. The results of the drills were much similar to those of the previous year, with Indian pilots able to win most of the engagements in their latest Su-30MKIs.

Again, in 2008 at Exercise Red Flag held at Mountain Home AFB, known for its complex and realistic war gaming, not a single Su-30MKI fighter was 'shot down’ in close air combat missions. In 10-odd one-on-one engagements against USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down.

You get the picture. The IAF Sukhois have consistently beaten western aircraft in a range of environments – Gwalior, California and now Britain

self-imposed handicaps

IAF Sukhois usually engage in simulated combat – particularly with western air forces – with their NIIP Bars radar in training mode. In this mode the radar operates with reduced performance and features. Russian and Indian officials have legitimate concerns about revealing too many details of this sophisticated sensor. At Red Flag 2008 a British spy plane had attempted to snoop on the Sukhoi’s radar but it had to return empty handed.

It is because of such spying – as well as to protect their data and tactics from air forces that it could one day possibly fly offensive missions against – that the IAF doesn’t permit its pilots to use the full spectrum of the Su-30’s capabilities.

The IAF also avoids BVR simulations for the same reason. It doesn’t allow the capabilities of its Russian made R-77 and R-73 air-to-air missiles to be simulated in exercises.

Lessons from Indradhanush 2007

Indradhanush 2007, held at Waddington, UK, featured a similar combat scenario, with IAF Flankers versus the RAF Typhoon, with a support cast of Tornados and the Harriers. Here’s what India’s Ministry of Defence had to say about the outcome:

“The operational part of Exercise Indradhanush-2007 began with a series of 1 vs 1 air combat sorties… The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI’s observed superior maneuvering in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated. The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoon’s agility in the air.

“While it does not imply to say that the 1 vs 1 air combat sorties were meant for backslapping each other, it may be understood that in today’s aerial combat scenarios of BVR capabilities of air platforms, it is highly unlikely that any of the modern-day fighters will ever get into a situation that warrants extreme close air combat, as in the situation simulated in the 1 vs 1 sorties. With a ‘kill’ criterion of front-gun ranges being mostly under 1000 meters and a visual tracking envelope behind the target for only up to a 60-degree cone mostly for most fighter aircraft of the world, the unlikely scenario gets more exemplified.

“But the irony also lies in the fact that while there is a number of counter and counter-counter measures to make the modern missiles with claims of inescapable parameters redundant by using ‘chaff’ and other active/passive measures, a ‘gun kill’ is invariably a most certain kill. The pilots invariably begin honing their tracking and combat skills under such close combat situations.”

The MoD’s purely technical – and unbiased – report blows away the British claim that they fought with one hand tied behind their back, that is, the Typhoons were not allowed to use their BVR capabilities. For, the Sukhois – which have vastly superior BVR missiles – also flew under severe and similar handicaps.

Defense Industry Daily (DID) agrees: “Even in the modern missile age, most air-to-air kills have remained within visual range.”

Bigger picture

According to DID, “Amidst the excitement of the aerial battles, the successful deployment of India’s aircraft using IAF aerial refuelling and logistics personnel might go unnoticed. From India’s point of view, however, these developments may be even more important than the results of the fighter match-ups in the air.”

The four Sukhoi air dominance fighters accompanied by an Ilyushin IL-78 aerial refueller, C-17 transporter and C-130 special operations aircraft flew from India to Saudi Arabia on to Athens before landing in Britain. The hopscotch itinerary – of nearly 10,000 km – served to show off India’s strategic reach capability, especially to the Saudis, who are now cooperating with India in combating Islamic terror, which is the Kingdom’s second largest export item after oil.

Bottom line

Indradhanush 2015 offered RAF pilots a rare chance to go up against some of the latest Russian-designed fighter jets. The British should count their blessings that the Indians allowed them joyrides in their Sukhois.

The takeaway for the British is that their newest jet fighter – which was built to take on the Flankers – is simply no match for the Russian jet. In fact, with the induction of the more advanced Su-35 Super Flanker in the Russian Air Force – and soon the Chinese air force – the Typhoon’s window of vulnerability will only widen.

As for the IAF, it should make sure all ‘kills’ by its pilots are verified and placed in the correct context. Indian pilots are historically not known to make tall claims. In the aftermath of previous wars, the Indian defence establishment has meticulously pieced together vast quantities of data from all sides in order to verify or debunk kills. If the claims are found to be inflated then the public needs to know too.

For, there’s no surer way to lose the next war than to live in delusion about your own strength.

A blog written by an Indian high on Jingoism(who laughably even uses colonialism in this context) is considered reliable by only those who themselves are there for nationalism and jingoism and not objective analysis.
 
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The same happened with RedFlag exercises. Indians boasted and then a video was leaked about a USAF officer mentioning how the IAF was humiliated again and again in 1v1 and WVR combat so much that they requested to take part in other maneuvers and no 1v1's and WVR combat.

Moral of the story: Every cat likes to imagine itself as a lion, but that doesn't make it one.
 
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A blog written by an Indian high on Jingoism(who laughably even uses colonialism in this context) is considered reliable by only those who themselves are there for nationalism and jingoism and not objective analysis.
Likely Because there No Official RAF Source is coming in the Open And Exact Amount of Jingoism Should By British Media Its Most Likely Became a Media Ego War For both sides which Created bitterness Negate the positive and Friendly Nature of These Exercises
 
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Likely Because there No Official RAF Source is coming in the Open And Exact Amount of Jingoism Should By British Media Its Most Likely Became a Media Ego War For both sides which Created bitterness Negate the positive and Friendly Nature of These Exercises
There rarely is. It is considered decency and camaraderie by fighter pilots never to declare results immediately or at least be boastful about them after exercises. But that was done after Cope India.. it was done by the French after ATLC.. and it has been done here by the IAF pilot.. essentially it shows ego issues and not maturity of thought.

When the F-15 first came out, it was doing 100-0 against European air forces yet there was no boasting in the news about it. It was considered as learning process for both and here too regardless of the actual result.. the IAF officer should have been well versed in decency and diplomacy to know that the RAF was courteous enough to host them and not boast about results that both have not agreed upon to release.
 
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Flanker fury: How the Sukhois blanked the Typhoons 12-0 in British skies | Russia & India Report

The Sukhoi Flanker has yet again emerged as the unchallenged wolf of the skies. During the 10-day Indradhanush exercise held in July in Lincolnshire, UK, Indian Air Force pilots flying the Su-30MKI humiliated the top aces of the RAF, blanking their latest Eurofighter Typhoon jets 12-0.

The IAF Sukhois were reportedly able to defeat the Typhoons not only in one-on-one combat, but also in situations where one IAF pilot was pitted against two Typhoons. Besides clobbering the RAF during within visual range (WVR) dogfights, the Sukhois also held an edge over the British jets in beyond visual range (BVR) combat though not in as dominating a manner.



Aviation International News learns from informed sources with knowledge of the exercise that “in close combat, the thrust vector control on the heavier Flankers more than compensated for the greater thrust-to-weight ratio of the Typhoon”.

Experienced air combat analyst Vishnu Som explains: “The first week of the exercises pitted the Su-30 in a series of aerial dogfight scenarios. First, there were 1 v 1 encounters, where a single jet of each type engaged each other in WVR combat, firing simulated missiles to a range of two miles. The exercises progressed to 2 v 2 engagements with two Eurofighters taking on two Su-30s and 2 v 1 exercises where two Sukhois took on a single Typhoon and vice versa. Notably, in the exercise where a lone Su-30 was engaged by two Typhoons, the IAF jet emerged the victor 'shooting' down both 'enemy' jets.”

The Flanker’s legendary super-maneuverability is a key reason why it emerged out of the knife fight unscathed. “In all dog fighting exercises, IAF Sukhois were able to turn sharply into the extremely agile Typhoons using their thrust-vectored engines to keep the RAF jets locked in their sights,” Som writes.

Also, the Su-30's advanced Infrared Search and Track System (IRST), a passive sensor, which cannot be tracked, proved to be a distinct advantage for the IAF's pilots in close-combat maneuvering. “Both the IAF and RAF used the full capabilities of their onboard radars, albeit in training mode, which meant actual radar frequencies used in combat conditions were never exposed for confidentiality reasons. However, the detection ranges of the radars of both aircraft were not curtailed per se. This was air combat as close to the real thing as possible.”

Interestingly, while the UK’s Independent says the British deployed the “cream of the RAF”, Som says “the IAF did not deploy any senior pilots serving with its elite Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment (TACDE)”.

British: Still colonial?

Dismissing the Indian claims as “comical”, an RAF source told the Independent that they were clearly designed for the “domestic audience”. The source added: “There must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India, as the headlines of the Indian press bear no relation to the results of the tactical scenarios completed on the exercise in any shape or form.”

The 12-0 score must have stung real bad considering the British are yet to jettison their colonial attitudes towards former subjects, who are now wealthier and stronger, possessing a much larger military.

Now compare the RAF’s childish reaction to the USAF’s more balanced approach in the aftermath of their humiliation by the IAF in the Cope India air combat exercises held in 2004 and 2005.

Cope India 04 made headlines worldwide when Indian pilots flying upgraded – but 30 year old – MiG-21s and the comparatively less advanced Su-30MKs defeated the USAF’s F-15 Eagles 9-1. Here’s what USAF Colonel Greg Newbech said after the exercise: “What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home.”

The following year, at Cope India 2005, the USAF deployed several F-16s. The results of the drills were much similar to those of the previous year, with Indian pilots able to win most of the engagements in their latest Su-30MKIs.

Again, in 2008 at Exercise Red Flag held at Mountain Home AFB, known for its complex and realistic war gaming, not a single Su-30MKI fighter was 'shot down’ in close air combat missions. In 10-odd one-on-one engagements against USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down.

You get the picture. The IAF Sukhois have consistently beaten western aircraft in a range of environments – Gwalior, California and now Britain

self-imposed handicaps

IAF Sukhois usually engage in simulated combat – particularly with western air forces – with their NIIP Bars radar in training mode. In this mode the radar operates with reduced performance and features. Russian and Indian officials have legitimate concerns about revealing too many details of this sophisticated sensor. At Red Flag 2008 a British spy plane had attempted to snoop on the Sukhoi’s radar but it had to return empty handed.

It is because of such spying – as well as to protect their data and tactics from air forces that it could one day possibly fly offensive missions against – that the IAF doesn’t permit its pilots to use the full spectrum of the Su-30’s capabilities.

The IAF also avoids BVR simulations for the same reason. It doesn’t allow the capabilities of its Russian made R-77 and R-73 air-to-air missiles to be simulated in exercises.

Lessons from Indradhanush 2007

Indradhanush 2007, held at Waddington, UK, featured a similar combat scenario, with IAF Flankers versus the RAF Typhoon, with a support cast of Tornados and the Harriers. Here’s what India’s Ministry of Defence had to say about the outcome:

“The operational part of Exercise Indradhanush-2007 began with a series of 1 vs 1 air combat sorties… The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI’s observed superior maneuvering in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated. The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoon’s agility in the air.

“While it does not imply to say that the 1 vs 1 air combat sorties were meant for backslapping each other, it may be understood that in today’s aerial combat scenarios of BVR capabilities of air platforms, it is highly unlikely that any of the modern-day fighters will ever get into a situation that warrants extreme close air combat, as in the situation simulated in the 1 vs 1 sorties. With a ‘kill’ criterion of front-gun ranges being mostly under 1000 meters and a visual tracking envelope behind the target for only up to a 60-degree cone mostly for most fighter aircraft of the world, the unlikely scenario gets more exemplified.

“But the irony also lies in the fact that while there is a number of counter and counter-counter measures to make the modern missiles with claims of inescapable parameters redundant by using ‘chaff’ and other active/passive measures, a ‘gun kill’ is invariably a most certain kill. The pilots invariably begin honing their tracking and combat skills under such close combat situations.”

The MoD’s purely technical – and unbiased – report blows away the British claim that they fought with one hand tied behind their back, that is, the Typhoons were not allowed to use their BVR capabilities. For, the Sukhois – which have vastly superior BVR missiles – also flew under severe and similar handicaps.

Defense Industry Daily (DID) agrees: “Even in the modern missile age, most air-to-air kills have remained within visual range.”

Bigger picture

According to DID, “Amidst the excitement of the aerial battles, the successful deployment of India’s aircraft using IAF aerial refuelling and logistics personnel might go unnoticed. From India’s point of view, however, these developments may be even more important than the results of the fighter match-ups in the air.”

The four Sukhoi air dominance fighters accompanied by an Ilyushin IL-78 aerial refueller, C-17 transporter and C-130 special operations aircraft flew from India to Saudi Arabia on to Athens before landing in Britain. The hopscotch itinerary – of nearly 10,000 km – served to show off India’s strategic reach capability, especially to the Saudis, who are now cooperating with India in combating Islamic terror, which is the Kingdom’s second largest export item after oil.

Bottom line

Indradhanush 2015 offered RAF pilots a rare chance to go up against some of the latest Russian-designed fighter jets. The British should count their blessings that the Indians allowed them joyrides in their Sukhois.

The takeaway for the British is that their newest jet fighter – which was built to take on the Flankers – is simply no match for the Russian jet. In fact, with the induction of the more advanced Su-35 Super Flanker in the Russian Air Force – and soon the Chinese air force – the Typhoon’s window of vulnerability will only widen.

As for the IAF, it should make sure all ‘kills’ by its pilots are verified and placed in the correct context. Indian pilots are historically not known to make tall claims. In the aftermath of previous wars, the Indian defence establishment has meticulously pieced together vast quantities of data from all sides in order to verify or debunk kills. If the claims are found to be inflated then the public needs to know too.

For, there’s no surer way to lose the next war than to live in delusion about your own strength.
seriously!!!


And this country's media is just laughable!!!!
 
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There rarely is. It is considered decency and camaraderie by fighter pilots never to declare results immediately or at least be boastful about them after exercises. But that was done after Cope India.. it was done by the French after ATLC.. and it has been done here by the IAF pilot.. essentially it shows ego issues and not maturity of thought.

When the F-15 first came out, it was doing 100-0 against European air forces yet there was no boasting in the news about it. It was considered as learning process for both and here too regardless of the actual result.. the IAF officer should have been well versed in decency and diplomacy to know that the RAF was courteous enough to host them and not boast about results that both have not agreed upon to release.

This is too much for blunt intruments to understand....the bigger picture...
 
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There rarely is. It is considered decency and camaraderie by fighter pilots never to declare results immediately or at least be boastful about them after exercises. But that was done after Cope India.. it was done by the French after ATLC.. and it has been done here by the IAF pilot.. essentially it shows ego issues and not maturity of thought.

When the F-15 first came out, it was doing 100-0 against European air forces yet there was no boasting in the news about it. It was considered as learning process for both and here too regardless of the actual result.. the IAF officer should have been well versed in decency and diplomacy to know that the RAF was courteous enough to host them and not boast about results that both have not agreed upon to release.

Which part of the IAF officer's statement you found not in line with the 'decency' and 'diplomacy', do point out.
 
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Which part of the IAF officer's statement you found not in line with the 'decency' and 'diplomacy', do point out.
In an interview with Indian television, IAF Group Captain Ashu Srivastav claimed victory over the British aircraft during close-range dogfights – prompting an RAF source to label his claim “comical”.

Group Captain Srivastav said the performance of his pilots was “exceptional”, while other reports in the Indian media said that IAF aircraft were able to defeat the more advanced RAF Typhoon aircraft not only in one-on-one combat, but also in situations where one IAF pilot was pitted against two Typhoons.

Indian Air Force 'beats RAF 12-0 in training exercise' – using Russian-designed jets - Home News - UK - The Independent

It is rather funny that somehow the IAF is not able to walk out of a single exersize without generating some sort of controversy over its chest thumping. Be it Cope India, Previous Indra, Red Flag.. and so on.
 
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Likely Because there No Official RAF Source is coming in the Open And Exact Amount of Jingoism Should By British Media Its Most Likely Became a Media Ego War For both sides which Created bitterness Negate the positive and Friendly Nature of These Exercises

Or maybe because the British simply don't care? They know in a proper battle of Typhoon vs Sukhoi, they'll have all the NATO support. So an Indian can boast all he wants over something that doesn't really exist.

At best you can take from this exercise, that Sukhoi is a good slow combat fighter, but then, didn't we know that already?
 
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In an interview with Indian television, IAF Group Captain Ashu Srivastav claimed victory over the British aircraft during close-range dogfights – prompting an RAF source to label his claim “comical”.

Group Captain Srivastav said the performance of his pilots was “exceptional”, while other reports in the Indian media said that IAF aircraft were able to defeat the more advanced RAF Typhoon aircraft not only in one-on-one combat, but also in situations where one IAF pilot was pitted against two Typhoons.
Indian Air Force 'beats RAF 12-0 in training exercise' – using Russian-designed jets - Home News - UK - The Independent


It is rather funny that somehow the IAF is not able to walk out of a single exersize without generating some sort of controversy over its chest thumping. Be it Cope India, Previous Indra, Red Flag.. and so on.

From the OP:

Asked about the performance of IAF pilots in these Large Force Engagements, Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult".

And from the original NDTV article:

In an exclusive interview, Group Captain Ashu Srivastav, the Contingent Commander in the exercises, told NDTV that the performance of his pilots was "exceptional." According to Group Captain Srivastav, who happens to be the IAF's most experienced Su-30 pilot, his pilots showed "flexibility and adaptability to a new environment and operating conditions and on this benchmark, I would rate them exceptional."

Which part of the IAF officer's statement lacked decency and diplomacy? How would a PAF officer say it if asked about his pilots' performence; "Our boys sucked"?

You can easily find examples of far louder chest thumping by the military officers of many other countries including the officers from US and UK.
 
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Whats the source ?

edit, this is it
RAF Challenge Indian Air Force 'Whitewash' Claims | Forces TV

IAF never had any official claims of 12-0, this is what IAF pilot really said

Asked about the performance of IAF pilots in these Large Force Engagements, Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult"."


There was a thread war going on with people from India and I. I've posted results already on a different thread. You can search it and check it out.

The Group Captain didn't say "they did Excellent" as the poster of that other thread had highlighted. He said "fairly well". And the 12-0 was never claimed by the group captain.

Its trigger happy defense analysts from India and little young fan boys from India on here who are making IAF look bad actually. No air-force announces these results this open and IAF didn't either. Its that sensational defense analyst who put stuff out of his as*s and added spice like it was an Indian food dish.

Journalists, when writing stuff like this, have to be careful as it can make a very professional organization bad. Like it happened here. RAF isn't happy about it but they are keeping it professional.

Don't ask me for links because its not a "link" conversation, but the 12-0 break down was actually 5 SU wins, 5 EFT, two contested, where one could go to SU's if they really pushed. Combine that is 6 SU wins (including one of the contested one's added for SU's as advantage; and 5 EFT's and One totally contested).

This means jack squat to be frank. Neither of the plane was running its electronics. Its like a blind shooting another Blind with TVC helping. Both jets are Modern but EFT with all of its electronic running, would be more than a match to SU-30. There is a REASON why India bought Rafale's. If SU-30 was that best of the best, they would've just added more of SU-30's very easily.

I think this thread has run its course and should be closed @Oscar @Jango , don't you guys thing?
 
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In an interview with Indian television, IAF Group Captain Ashu Srivastav claimed victory over the British aircraft during close-range dogfights – prompting an RAF source to label his claim “comical”.

Group Captain Srivastav said the performance of his pilots was “exceptional”, while other reports in the Indian media said that IAF aircraft were able to defeat the more advanced RAF Typhoon aircraft not only in one-on-one combat, but also in situations where one IAF pilot was pitted against two Typhoons.
Indian Air Force 'beats RAF 12-0 in training exercise' – using Russian-designed jets - Home News - UK - The Independent


It is rather funny that somehow the IAF is not able to walk out of a single exersize without generating some sort of controversy over its chest thumping. Be it Cope India, Previous Indra, Red Flag.. and so on.

I am surprised you fell for this, Should have looked at the wordings of the "IAF Group Capitan" more carefully before posting a reply..

Besides Typhoons had claimed wiping out the Su-30mki back in 2011, they claimed shooting down even F-22, and in Cope India that F-15 aggressor pilot got half of his facts wrong.. and not to mention PAF claiming to shoot down Typhoons. ? Every Air force does its fair share of Chest thumping.

I just tend to notice Pakistanis in this thread have been really agitated at this news..
 
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@Oscar @Viper0011.

A little of Chest Thumping by the IAF is Fine

I can explain the Context

1 The First part is the Technical part

SU 30 MKI is the ONLY Non Nato plane that is REGULARLY exercising with
The US F 15 / 16 ; UK's Eurofighter and French Rafale

Given the Relations between USA and Russia / China ;
India is the only country through which we can pit the NATO planes Vs Russian planes

That was also the precise reason India was invited to Red Flag
and will go again to Red Flag

2 The second part is about the Training and assimilation of various technologies

IAF is the only airforce with such a MIX of Technologies

Similarly our IAF training is a mixture of the Best practices of the East and West

We use Russian ; Israeli ; French; Italian ( Virgilius Jammers )
and some Indian developed technologies too in Su 30 MKI

So all these need to be validated

3 The third part is of course our adversaries must know where we stand

However There is NO chest Thumping when IAF trains with Singapore F 16 Block 52 +
or Russian SU 30 / SU 35
 
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@Oscar @Viper0011.

A little of Chest Thumping by the IAF is Fine

I can explain the Context

1 The First part is the Technical part

SU 30 MKI is the ONLY Non Nato plane that is REGULARLY exercising with
The US F 15 / 16 ; UK's Eurofighter and French Rafale

Given the Relations between USA and Russia / China ;
India is the only country through which we can pit the NATO planes Vs Russian planes

That was also the precise reason India was invited to Red Flag
and will go again to Red Flag

2 The second part is about the Training and assimilation of various technologies

IAF is the only airforce with such a MIX of Technologies

Similarly our IAF training is a mixture of the Best practices of the East and West

We use Russian ; Israeli ; French; Italian ( Virgilius Jammers )
American and some Indian developed technologies too

So all these need to be validated

3 The third part is of course our adversaries must know where we stand

However There is NO chest Thumping when IAF trains with Singapore F 16 Block 52 +
or Russian SU 30 / SU 35

You took so much time to write so many wonderful things, I appreciate it. But the question still remains unanswered. Why the chest thumping and fan boys getting into verbal battles here when clearly the Group Captain didn't make these statements about 12-0 and none of that was true.

The results were 50-50 or may be 55-50 in favor of the SU-30. So why lie about an international matter and get a professional air-force all pissed off (the RAF) as they remained professional about it? If this was TRULY a 12-0 wash, I think I can understand the joy. But why "make up" such a huge blunder in the middle of a nation to nation, professional force to another professional force exercise.....even THAT with ALL electronics, including Radars turned off!!! Which means that the exercise, beyond seeing each others aerodynamics, meant nothing more!!!

So your post makes no sense. All this talk about we use the Israeli, American, Indian electronics, etc, and they had to be validated.....when nothing was validated in reality??? Even the Radars weren't turned on, on combat modes to preserve confidentiality of each others electronics and frequencies. So I am sorry, but what are you validating when nothing is turned on?

And what "training and assimilation of various technologies was verified", when no tech outside of a basic combat simulator pod was used? If this was a TVC test, I can give you that. But that again, its an aerodynamic test of the structure of the plane. Not its electronics, weapons and combat system.....so again, what's the noise about and so much of it?

Your training is a mixture of east and west...what does that has to do with this exercise? The Pakistanis will say the same thing, I am sure the Iranian will say the same thing and even the Malaysian will say the same thing....majority of the air-forces use multiple planes from multiple origins....???

"IAF being the ONLY force using mix of weapons" meaning Russin, Isreli and American tech......Germans fly all Western jets AND Mig-29's.....Eastern European countries also fly mixed jets, Pakistanis fly mixed technologies from the East and the West, Iran is the same way, Egypt, Malaysia, Indonesia......what's SO different about the IAF in this regards? Even the SU-30 is owned by many different nations, who also have other platforms too.

I am sorry dude, I don't know what you are trying to justify. None of your points make logical sense, or show why IAF and / or the reporter and the fan boys had to come up with a feel good lie, and then push it down people's throats so hard that so much time and posts were wasted in a day. Doesn't help anyone having a debate as it turns into a bashing competition without substance.

If I missed something that explains the drama created around the fake 12-0 number, do explain please.
 
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