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Punjab has 446m tons of coal reserves

When it comes to @niaz sb, better be mindful. He knows his stuff. Your reply has been written just for the sake of replying.

My understanding is that solar panel costs have fallen to a level where it is the cheapest technology of harnessing solar energy. The salt route has some storage capacity, but it is still cost-prohibitive.

Your Analogy matches your own comments pefectly. Some reading material for you.

How it works: Solar power towers with integrated storage : Renew Economy
Thermal Updraft Towers –Inefficient yet Effective - Pennenergy
http://envgis.technion.ac.il/publications/energy tower potential.pdf

Downdraft towers are still in research, but CPS and Updraft Towers are already in deployment.
 
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When it comes to @niaz sb, better be mindful. He knows his stuff. Your reply has been written just for the sake of replying.

My understanding is that solar panel costs have fallen to a level where it is the cheapest technology of harnessing solar energy. The salt route has some storage capacity, but it is still cost-prohibitive.


Many thanks for the kind thought. After I retired at end of 2010 I needed to do something to keep myself mentally stimulated. Thanks to my network, I manage to make a reasonable living as ‘Strategic Petroleum & Energy Consultant’ and am not much bothered about opinion of others.

It is a misconception that there is a lot of oil in Baluchistan and we are not exploring it because of Iran. Oil & Gas Explorations in Baluchistan has being going on since the 50’s. For example Sui gas was found in 1952. If there is an impediment it is the lack of funds and law & order of situation.

Pakistan already has couple of wind energy projects. Understand 56 MW Jhimpir plant is already selling power to the National grid. Wind power is not cheap. Understand Jhimpir power station sells electricity to Pakistan at 12 cents per KWH.

Solar Panel cost has come down Solar panels are great help in heating individual homes and for a bulb or two, but solar energy is still the most expensive way of power generation.

The literature suggested by Hon Franker is nothing new. The link to Energy towers is only a concept paper.

One of the main reasons for emphasis on research in alternative energy especially the solar energy is primarily because these plants do not generate greenhouse gases. However solar farms require huge areas and are still very expensive.

Large scale Solar Power generation is still at an embryonic stage. Main problem is storage of heat to be used after the sunset. Batteries have never really resolved the problem. Lot of pioneering technology using molten/liquid nitrate salts has been experimented with. The results are not exactly great and costs astronomic.

For example

Nevada Solar one was one of first commercial solar power plants. It is spread over 400 acres and produces 75 MW. Plant went into production in 2007 with capital outlay of $266-million. ($3.5-million per MW)

The company building the 500 MW (2 x 250) ground breaking Armargosa Desert renewable Project went bankrupt in 2011.

Crescent Dune Solar Energy project near Las Vegas is being developed by Solar Reserve and will cost about $1-billion for 110 MW ($9-million per MW).

Ivanpah Solar Energy project in Mojave Desert of California will cost about $2-billion for producing about 392 MW. ($ 5.5-million per MW). This a huge project utilising about 170,000 heliostat mirrors (mirrors that follow movement of the sun). Understand first units should have already into production.

It is clear that in Pakistan’s’ context, to rely solely on solar energy is not viable.

Energy towers are not ‘Solar’. Correct term is Down Draft Towers. I read about Dan Zadlavsky work on Downdraft Energy Towers about 3 years ago when I started as Petroleum & Energy Consultant. This technology was developed primarily in Israel. An Energy Tower is a hallow tower with opening at the top & bottom and is primarily a wind generating machine. It works on the principal that cool air is heavy and sinks to the bottom. Atomised water is sprayed at the top, it cools the air which sinks to the bottom and rushes thru the turbines driving the electric generator. It is more like water fall but instead of water, it is the air that falls. The energy is generated by the air falling that is why you need very high and wide towers (more than 1000 feet tall and about 300 feet wide) because you need very large drafts of air rushing down very quickly.

Solar Wind Energy is planning to build a Down Draft tower on the border of Arizona and Mexico. This ambitious project will be in the shape of a large, hollow cylinder with an open top. Heavy and humid air will be produced by spraying water into the opening at the top. , this air will sink to the bottom at approximately 50 miles per hour and exit through one of the 25 tunnels located at the base. Within these tunnels are turbines that will turn and generate electricity with the passing of the fast-moving air.

It would be on 1,700 acres. It will have two Towers about 2,250 feet high and about 500 feet generating 600 MW of electricity. They say it would cost only about $1-billion, thus making the Down Draft plant comparable to fossil fuel plants in capital costs. However it is yet to be built.

Pakistan does not have advanced enough technology base to think of Energy Towers. In my humble opinion, in Pakistani context we need cheap and efficient power plants that are cheap to build, easy to maintain and easy to operate.

Best solution would the 3rd generation nuclear power plants promised to India by the United States. Because the cost is now comparable with the fossil fuel plants and we already have trained manpower to operate nuclear power plants.

Alternatively, we set up combined cycle gas turbine power plants which cost only about $1-million per MW and import LNG or gas from Iran/ Arab Gulf countries. Failing the above we set up pulverized coal combustion power plants.
 
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Thanks @niaz sb. As always your posts are a pleasure to read and I never fail to learn something from you.

I had also looked at various links given by Fracker. You are right, the tech is not mature and certainly not appropriate for Pakistan yet atleast.

I would very much like to know your views about harnessing the low-head hydro-power available in our canal network. The last I heard was a 50MW project at Head Marala (?) to be financed by a Chinese company at few years ago. PPP government refused to provide guarantee and that was that. I read somewhere that in Punjab the total potential capacity of small hydropower plants is around 2000MW. The technology can not be very difficult and we could use this technology in all of our provinces. What are your views sir? Is there any literature / study out there that you can recommend?
 
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Pakistan ranked 7th in world having coal reserves
Pakistan ranked 7th in world having coal reserves

LAHORE: Pakistan is the 7th coal reserves country in the world with around 186 billion tonnes of coal.
This was revealed in a research under taken by the Lahore Chamber of Commerce and Industry (LCCI).

Most of the world's lignite coal is found in Asia and Pakistan tops in lignite coal-bearing countries in Asia as 97% of coal reserves of Pakistan belong to lignite and remaining only 3% are sub-bituminous to bituminous.

Coal reserves of Punjab are around 235 million tonnes and are found mainly in the salt range. These reserves are mainly located in four districts, Jhelum, Chakwal, Khushab and Mianwali. The coal field covers an area of about 260 sq km. While seams vary in thickness from 0.3 meter to 1.5 meters with an average thickness of 0.75 meters.

According to LCCI research, Sindh is the most richest province in coal with 185,457 million tonnes. Balochistan 458.7 million tonnes, Punjab 235 million tonnes, KP 122.99 million tonnes and Azad Kashmir 8.72 million tonnes. These reserves are stated to be sufficent to meet the country's fuel requirements and lignite can be betterly used for power generation.
 
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Thanks @niaz sb. As always your posts are a pleasure to read and I never fail to learn something from you.

I had also looked at various links given by Fracker. You are right, the tech is not mature and certainly not appropriate for Pakistan yet atleast.

I would very much like to know your views about harnessing the low-head hydro-power available in our canal network. The last I heard was a 50MW project at Head Marala (?) to be financed by a Chinese company at few years ago. PPP government refused to provide guarantee and that was that. I read somewhere that in Punjab the total potential capacity of small hydropower plants is around 2000MW. The technology can not be very difficult and we could use this technology in all of our provinces. What are your views sir? Is there any literature / study out there that you can recommend?


I don’t know a lot about micro hydro power plants. What little I know I am happy to share with you.

Please remember that amount of power one can generate depends upon volume of water flow, slope or Head and efficiency of the machinery.

Bay type hydro systems. This is just a small dam with low height. You pass part of the water thru a tunnel on to the turbine and back into the stream. You need at least 3 to 4 meter head to have a viable power plant.

Shaft type hydro systems. Here water flows into a box shaped construction within the stream, down thru a shaft in the river bed exiting thru a turbine back into the bottom of the river. It is claimed shaft system is about 30% cheaper to construct and can work with as little as 2 meter Head.

River flow systems. You need to find two points on the river/stream path with a slope. Water from the stream is channelled thru a pipe on to a turbine and back into to the stream. Steeper the slope less the length of the diversion pipe. Normally Impulse turbines are used as we are converting kinetic energy of water into electricity.

Understand a viable 10 KW plant would require about 16 cubic feet per second water flow with 12 feet head. Plants of about 5MW are quite common. Given sufficient water flow, a 50 MW plant should be viable.

I don’t have too much data on the cost. Only that capital cost of even small hydro plant in the $8-million per MW range therefore a 50 MW plant should cost about $350 to $400-million. However running costs are very low.

UK local gov’t website quotes that an 8 KW micro system will cost about £63,000/- to install. It will generate about 35,000 KHW (units) electricity per year and you can sell the surplus electricity to Nation Grid at 5p (Rs 9/-) per KW.

Regret to advise that I concentrate primarily on fossil fuel plants. I attend conferences on renewable energy but these deal mostly with bio fuels and with Solar & Wind energy. Therefore not in apposition to advise on hydro power. What I know about hydel power is from the internet; mainly because I don’t want to appear totally ignorant when I am conversing with the Energy & Power experts in the conferences.
 
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Honourable Sir,

Havind spent 45 years in the petroleum sector at international level; I happen to know a little bit about oil & gas an about energy.

Current total oil & gas requirements of Pakistan are about 28.8 million tons of oil equivalent per annum. In lay-man’s terms about 0.590-milion barrels per day. This is based upon actual consumption during 2010-2011 which has always been restricted due to lack of funds for imports. If there was no restriction on gas and oil supply and with zero load shedding, real demand would be close to 1.0-million barrels per day of oil equivalent.

Thus far proven reserves are 32 TCF of gas & 300 million barrels of oil. Total domestic production is about 70,000 bbl. per day of crude oil and 4.2 billion cft of gas or about 107,000 bbl. per day of oil equivalent. Meaning production of 177,000 bbl per day per versus requirement of nearly 590,000 bbl. per day.

If you have info about sufficient reserves oil as you say, kindly share the same with us because these are of immense national importance. Please don’t include shale oil & gas primarily because these are not yet proven and also require lot of funds and many years to bring to fruition.

Regarding solar potential?

One hour of full sun provides about 1 Kwh/m2. Average household would need about 20 to 21 m2 of panels ( about 4KW). Even with the sharp decrease in solar panel prices; in UK it would cost about £6000 (Rs 9 lacs) with the inverters and batteries total cost can easily be about £8,000 or Rs 12 lacs.

The proposed solar farm in Bahawalpur will cost about $2.2-billion to produce about 1050MW of electricity and will cover 5000 acres! Add to this cost of transporting it to national grid. Our maximum powershort fall is about 6,000 MW. This would need 30,000 acres of panels/mirrors to produce. In case there is a long period of cloud cover such as during monsoon, electric supply will stop.

Only large potential we have is hydroelectric, again we need money and you know the resistance to Kalabagh Dam. But for this we also need lot funds. We have wind corridor as well but this also need funds.

Therefore with all due respect I would beg to differ from the statement in your post.

Pakistan does not have sufficient PROVEN oil & gas reserves that we don't need to import a single barrel from outside. And one of the main causes of energy crisis is lack of funds to develop solar/wind/nuclear energy or exploit Thar coal.

Why the cost of setting up solar farm so high in Pak, I mean India is also setting up a 4000 MW solar plant in Rajasthan while the cost of first phase of 1000 MW on similar 5000 acres is INR 7500 Cr.($1.25 billion) while in Pak its $2.2 billion, thats almost twice the amount.
 
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Why the cost of setting up solar farm so high in Pak, I mean India is also setting up a 4000 MW solar plant in Rajasthan while the cost of first phase of 1000 MW on similar 5000 acres is INR 7500 Cr.($1.25 billion) while in Pak its $2.2 billion, thats almost twice the amount.

This probably has to do with differences in account for costs involved. I would be very interested in the break-down of costs. Could you provide a breakdown of these costs from the Indian project? I did a quick mental claculation and at today's prevailing rates, the panels & fittings alone would cost a little less than USD 1 Billion for 1000MW peak power project. In market a panel with claimed 100 - 150 W output costs about USD 70.

On the Pakistani project, the cost could include cost of finance, since I think Government of Punjab probably would not invest much at all. Also the cost of conversion equipment and transmission lines could be a part of the total cost, and perhaps even the cost of land. Putting all this together, USD 2.2 B still seems a bit on the high side. But then I am no expert. As I said, I would be interested in cost breakdown of the Indian project. Just the cost of panels would amount to around, USD 30 per 100W even if all the finance goes to purchasing panels only. I have my doubts on numbers.
 
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This probably has to do with differences in account for costs involved. I would be very interested in the break-down of costs. Could you provide a breakdown of these costs from the Indian project? I did a quick mental claculation and at today's prevailing rates, the panels & fittings alone would cost a little less than USD 1 Billion for 1000MW peak power project. In market a panel with claimed 100 - 150 W output costs about USD 70.

On the Pakistani project, the cost could include cost of finance, since I think Government of Punjab probably would not invest much at all. Also the cost of conversion equipment and transmission lines could be a part of the total cost, and perhaps even the cost of land. Putting all this together, USD 2.2 B still seems a bit on the high side. But then I am no expert. As I said, I would be interested in cost breakdown of the Indian project. Just the cost of panels would amount to around, USD 30 per 100W even if all the finance goes to purchasing panels only. I have my doubts on numbers.

The project was recently approved in Sept 2013 itself. So, not much data is available about it.

All i know is that the reduced cost is bcoz of fall in prices of Solar panels in US n China. The total cost of the project is INR 30,000 Cr. n will require 23,000 acres in total.

While the first phase will be completed by 2016 n will cost around INR 7,500 Cr. With around 5,000 acres of land. N the tariff is expected to be INR 5.50 per unit(one of the lowest in the world).

One reason could be that the land is already available as Hindustan Salt has 57,000 acres of land at Sambhar, Rajasthan.

Besides once complete it'll be the biggest solar power plant in the world, so some economies of scale might be there as India plans to install 10,000 MW of solar power by 2017 n it'll reach 20,000 MW by 2022.:)

Rajasthan set to get largest solar plant in world - The Times of India
 
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The project was recently approved in Sept 2013 itself. So, not much data is available about it.

All i know is that the reduced cost is bcoz of fall in prices of Solar panels in US n China. The total cost of the project is INR 30,000 Cr. n will require 23,000 acres in total.

While the first phase will be completed by 2016 n will cost around INR 7,500 Cr. With around 5,000 acres of land. N the tariff is expected to be INR 5.50 per unit(one of the lowest in the world).

One reason could be that the land is already available as Hindustan Salt has 57,000 acres of land at Sambhar, Rajasthan.

Besides once complete it'll be the biggest solar power plant in the world, so some economies of scale might be there as India plans to install 10,000 MW of solar power by 2017 n it'll reach 20,000 MW by 2022.:)

Rajasthan set to get largest solar plant in world - The Times of India


Hon Yogi, you are assuming that the plant will based on PV panels. This may not be so. I have been reading about Indian Solar Power projects for some time. Unlike Pakistan, understand India manufactures PV panels locally. Naturally my info about Indian projects is from the Indian Newspapers that are available on the Internet.

In my humble opinion (I seriously mean it since I am a novice in Solar Energy) any plant beyond 50-60 MW using photo voltaic panels becomes too cumbersome. For example 40 MW plat at Dharma uses half million thin film PV modules! That is why second Reliance plant at Dharsar of 100MW capacity is based on concentrated Solar Technology; that is making use of the mirrors to focus on a small area. The cost of this plant being built by Rajasthan Sun Technique (owned by Reliance) is given at IRs 2, 116.50 crores or about USD 350-million translating into $3.50- million per MW.

Only logical reason I can think of low cost is that local content. Indian Solar plants must have a large domestic content. Whereas in Pakistan, to the best of my knowledge there is no such restriction. Theoretically Construction Contractors can even import pencils from abroad. Most importantly, Pakistan has far lower credit rating and major law & order problem, thus considered a lot more risky to invest than India. Pakistan State pays the price in the form of inflated cost.


Quote


During the first phase of the country’s Jawaharlal Nehru National Solar Mission (JNNSM) – under which solar PV and solar thermal were each allocated 500-MW of capacity – there was a mandate that 60 per cent of equipment by value was to be locally sourced for solar PV projects and 30 percent for solar thermal projects. State-level solar programs,such as Gujarat’s, are not obliged to follow the national lead on local content.

India closing thin-film loophole in solar local content rules | News on environment, business sustainability and cleantech in Asia


Currently, the local content in the solar plants is 75 per cent against the imported content "but next year the government may have to review it," he added.

Solairedirect Energy inaugrates 5.6 MW solar park in Rajasthan - The Hindu

Unquote.
 
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@Yogi & @niaz sb. I had made in error in my calculations. The Indian project could indeed be based on PV, my figure of INR 30 per 100 W panel is wrong by a factor of 4. It would be INR 120, and that is much closer to what it should be.
 
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@niaz sb its always a pleasure to ready ur posts n thanx for all those links.:)

But as i said earlier its only a 2 month old news so not much info is available currently.
Since they both required similar land area to produce similar power but with huge diff in cost, so i asked the question.

Btw do u know how much will be the tariff of ur plant, the expected tariff for Rajasthan Plant is INR 5.50 per unit.

Anyways its good to see that both Pakistan n India r investing in clean energy.

Btw how much power does Pak produces from wind energy?
i have read that Balochistan n KPK has huge potential in this area.

@Chak Bamu sorry, idk what calculations u used neither i m an expert in this field, so i can't comment.
 
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Very broadly speaking a wind turbine will not work at speeds below 2 meter per second wind speed. You really need average wind speed of about 6 meters per second for a viable wind power project. There is a corridor just North of Karachi known as Gharo corridor where average wind speed of about 7 meter per second at 50 meter height has been recorded. That is only area where power production from wind energy is commercially feasible. Understand potential of the area is about 50,000MW.

To the best of my knowledge 50 MW Wind Energy at Jhimpir was scheduled to be completed in 2013. The project cost was about $130-million and sale price to national grid Pk Rs 13/- per KWH.

If anyone has more up to date information of wind power projects in operation in Pakistan, I would appreciate if the details can be posted.
 
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